Ulitmate Question!

[Blue]

I have to agree with Brian, Postmaster, and do not see how what you have stated in your last post has any bearing on it?

Prophets surely set themselves up as 'superior', because they claim to 'know' something, just through personal feelings, others don't know. They then consider it their duty to prohesy what they somehow 'know', when no one else does.
Following that, some will listen to the prohet and agree, others will listen and disagree... that is equality in action. The prophets depend for their success on what they say being proved in the external domain... How come they in Biblical terms seem to often get it wrong? Indeed, we are still waiting to see if some of them are right or wrong... after at least two thousand and more years.

By setting themselves up as seers of truths the rest of us do not appreciate and know, they put themselves 'above' the rest of us, claiming some special relationship with Nature or a God that is not based in any thing other than their own feelings.
In other words, they may be right or they might just as easily be wrong.

Why do prohets never seem to refer directly to empirical evidence beyond their own assertions?

======

I have never understood those who would deliberately set out to start a 'new' religion... When this has happened historically, as with St Paul, we just seem to recieve a 'message' that is basically their own, rather than, in this instance of St Paul, proper direct reference to the few actual purported words of Jesus of Nazareth?
Why is Pauline Christianity so much of St.Paul/Saul, rather than Jesus of Nazareth? Were not the words of Jesus enough that they needed explanations and interpretations by Paul?
In other words, we are simply in the position of accepting or denying the subjective assertions of the founder of the 'new' religion.

[louis]

From Louis .....
Hi - I'm an outsider - another label that seems to fit me
is "reductionist".
No form of "religious" belief has ever made sense to me -
I don't understand why some people are attracted to the
idea of a "Deity" or why others are repelled and call themselves "Atheists" - I doesn't matter to me either way.
Since most members of this forum describe themselves
as "believers", I have asked them to explain what that
means but never got a reply that made any sense to me.
After awhile I gave up and now I just check in occasionaly.

[Postmaster]

You’re a "reductionist"? I know all about it. The problem with that is, if I went and killed someone, it would bare no scars on any moral level. It would be simply my DNA driving me to commit such a crime and part of nature and all humans are ran on the chemical processes in the brain. Surely there has to be more then that. Also reductionism sees life in a robot sense, where is the free will? Who knows, I respect that and I'm not saying it might not be true.

"Believers" are a person that believes in something that is immeasurable. It’s putting your faith into something, something we all do everyday in our lives like when we sit on a chair we put faith that it wont brake on us. Personally I put my faith that there is a God (Pure Positive being).

[Postmaster]

[quote=Blue]I have to agree with Brian, Postmaster, and do not see how what you have stated in your last post has any bearing on it?

Prophets surely set themselves up as 'superior', because they claim to 'know' something, just through personal feelings, others don't know. They then consider it their duty to prohesy what they somehow 'know', when no one else does.
Following that, some will listen to the prohet and agree, others will listen and disagree... that is equality in action. The prophets depend for their success on what they say being proved in the external domain... How come they in Biblical terms seem to often get it wrong? Indeed, we are still waiting to see if some of them are right or wrong... after at least two thousand and more years.[quote]


It is the people that seem to think that Prophets are superior, people that do not understand there nature. Just because a person might have a touch of divinity doesn't mean he is superior, as a matter of fact here on earth, he would be lower, lowest of low to the people. The very people who believe they are superior would treat them like this, the people that are blind. Was Jesus superior because he was the son of god? Did he not love, care, feed and die to get his word out and he was spat on for his belief. His family knew he was a prophet and in fact many people accepted it, the man created miracles on earth which went down in history with eye witness accounts, there’s no doubt they happened. But the thing people couldn't accept was that he was saying he was more, the son of God. But doesn't mean he was superior, he was superior in the minds of the people that put him on the cross and thats why they put him there, they feared him.

[DrewJMore]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

...(the most fundamental practice of faith) ....

Once you are in the afterlife, it will no longer be in issue of faith; or of practice, for that matter.

In response to the main thread: I kick around the the terms "antitheist," and/or "antideist."
In practice, my beliefs are:
1.) that anyone who has 'faith' has created an internal mental projection of an ultimate deity,
and
2.) that any god which may exist has nothing to do with that.
Further, it is clear to me that those who follow religious reasoning are liable to overstep established morality in trade for better treatment in the afterlife.

That having been said, I regularly attend ELCA Lutheran services, and am active in numerous activities therewith. Hence this site may serve as an outlet for my frustration with such people.

[Blue]

Postmaster says:
"The problem with that is, if I went and killed someone, it would bare no scars on any moral level. It would be simply my DNA driving me to commit such a crime and part of nature and all humans are ran on the chemical processes in the brain. Surely there has to be more then that. Also reductionism sees life in a robot sense, where is the free will?"
========
The problem here is that the motivation for what you maintain is somewhat like 'fear': A fear that all might be meaningless, beyond the meanings we award matters as self-regarding creatures.

Believe it or not, the situation describe above is so.. but you seem to forget the human capacity for self-regard and RATIONALITY. You say there is more than that... and indeed, I agree there is... there is our self-regarding faculty and there is our capacity for rationality.

In other words, we apparently have free will to makle rational decisions and affective decisions. We have the capacity to reject all supernatural, self validated emotive 'reasons, or similar, and put our focus towards thinking and acting in accord with reason and our rationally and logically employed use of self-regard as creatures that inhabit a material domain we can investigate and validate objectively.
That is hardly behaving robotically, I think.

[Blue]

Drew,
I have to agree with you:

"In practice, my beliefs are:
1.) that anyone who has 'faith' has created an internal mental projection of an ultimate deity,
and
2.) that any god which may exist has nothing to do with that.
Further, it is clear to me that those who follow religious reasoning are liable to overstep established morality in trade for better treatment in the afterlife."

I have yet to see any arguments against this that are based in a rational, logical and objective approach, rather than affective responses dependent upon personal validation, which are so commonly cited.

[Faithfulservant]

Blue are you married?

[Basstian]

16: For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17: For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.


26: For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27: For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29: And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

28: For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15: For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16: The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

17: Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18: And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;


So what am I A Christian A Jew a Muslim A Naturalist ? Just about the time I Stop learning about God He reveals more of Himself and challenges everything I have learned if I limit my Religion "put it in a box with a label on it" I run the risk of being stagnit and churchy I search for truth believe God gave each man the ability to find it of their own accord. Christianity to me is like a Thanks Giving Turkey with the little popper showing its done. eat to much it makes you sleepy. no offence I hope any Christian would disagree and show me where that view is wrong. The Jewish Faith has a heritage roots the leave me felling well grounded though I see to much change hard to see who is Jew by Blood or Jew by Faith. My Muslims coucins I think of them are distant and I long to learn more about them and where they come from.

I do Know I am saved by the blood of Jesus Nothing I learn will change that Salvation, My goal is to Study so as to Draw myself and others Closer to the truth .
Peace to all brethren which ever of you want to claim me

[Tristan]

I've been a registered member of this forum for quite some time now, and I never felt a need to write something myself. What brought me to posting in this particular thread is the fact that everyone was so ready to answer the title question, and the fact that everyone was (more or less) sure about their spirituality or the absent of it.

What intrigues me is: is it really that important in ones life to be able to describe oneself as "presbetarian", or "jewish", or "an atheist", or something else ? And if that is important, why is it important ?

I find myself to be a spiritual person, and the sence of belonging to a greater power is growing within me more and more with years, but I never felt that I should live my spirituality by practicing this or that religious practice, or by following any kind of philosophical or esoteric teaching. "Catholicism", "gnosticism", "budhism"… those are just words, whose meanings were shaped by men, as well as the philosophies behind them.

So. What percentage of jewish teachings, practices etc. one must agree with to be considered of jewish faith, by his/her's, or the view of people around them ? Would I do better in life (this one or the next) if I start

Spirituality is the most private of all notions of a human being. So why is belonging to an istitution (even if that institution is "atheism") so important when it comes to live it ?

[dauer]

Originally Posted by Tristan

]What intrigues me is: is it really that important in ones life to be able to describe oneself as "presbetarian", or "jewish", or "an atheist", or something else ? And if that is important, why is it important ?

Important in what sense? I call myself a Jew for the same reason I call myself a college student. It describes my position.

I find myself to be a spiritual person, and the sence of belonging to a greater power is growing within me more and more with years, but I never felt that I should live my spirituality by practicing this or that religious practice, or by following any kind of philosophical or esoteric teaching. "Catholicism", "gnosticism", "budhism"… those are just words, whose meanings were shaped by men, as well as the philosophies behind them.

Is something bad just because man shaped it? Your own way of life is also shaped by man.

So. What percentage of jewish teachings, practices etc. one must agree with to be considered of jewish faith, by his/her's, or the view of people around them ?

I wouldn't call Judaism a faith because I don't think that's a good definition. I'd call it an evolving religious civilization. The people around me would consider me Jewish, at least at some level, even if I became a Mormon. Faith is also inaccurate because it suggests that faith plays the same role in Judaism as it does in, for instance, Christianity.

I am considered a Jew because my mother is a Jew. By definition this makes me Jewish. My religiosity could better be defined by my level of observance of ritual and moral practices. Increasing these practices would mean the people around me would see me more as "acting Jewish." However, without acting in this fashion I would remain a Jew through and through. I would say that for Jews teachings are important, but the metaphysical ones are vague and usually have more than one answer anyway.

Would I do better in life (this one or the next) if I start

Only you know what path is right for you. I value community in my ventures into spirituality and so organized religion agrees with me. Some people find God in times of being alone.

Spirituality is the most private of all notions of a human being.

How is this true? Experience is private. Shared experience is a sharing of secret intimacies. I would rather know God in a room full of friends I don't know as we seek His face than alone in my room with nobody to confide in with my beaming heart. Any experience that is universally knowable cannot be declared "most private." And this is true of all human experience.

So why is belonging to an istitution (even if that institution is "atheism") so important when it comes to live it ?

Okay, you got me. I go for the food.

Dauer

[Basstian]

Tristan I write this for you in hopes that its meaning will answer some of the questions you are asking your self.

I myself was raised in a religion that was very strict do this dont do that or your going to burn in hell. Even though that was not the serman preached from the pulpit every week it was the underlieing message you went home with.
I was always left with I cant do it I will never be that good or bring my life to that standard. At the end of everyday I was left feeling like a failure like I had fallen short with no hope for tommorrow. I smiled and continued on day after day year after year on the outside Devote on the inside heartbroke and in dispair.

Its was not until I read that every man must work out his own salvation with fear and trembling I realized that following a group seeking salvation was not the answer for me. I realized that personal study and soul seeking was the only path that I could follow that would leave me with the peace I had been searching for.

My faith is based on what I read in the Bible both old and new testament. I believe there is a straight and narrow way that leads us to salvation. One that doesnt allow a group to walk hand in hand. But requires each person to choose their steps carefully like walking a narrow ledge picking and carefully considering each step. Follow the guy in front of you and you make the same mistakes he does. Ask advice of the person behind you and get his prediction of what lies ahead not a sure truth of what you will encounter.

I am neither Jew Nor Greek Nor Christian nor any other "religion" I see in Judism a faith in a God that in my heart I know exists and is the Creator of all things. I see in Christianity the Fulfilment of the promises made by God to the Jewish people. But I myself as of now have not found this path to salvation wide enough to walk down with either. I will continue on single file as I have been for sometime offering support to any I come across not bidding them to follow nor asking them to lead . But encouraging to continue on searching each step using Gods word as the only guide on this narrow trail.

You may find me Sunday morning singing praises, you may find me in the synagogue praying hearing the law and the prophets some sabbath, You may find me kneeling in prayer towards meeca with my Muslim brothers trying to learn real devotion, Or simply walking through the woods listening for the voice of God carried on the wind.

My advice seperate the truth from the traditions, study to the point you can tell Deception from Doctrine. Amd most important WALK ON BY FAITH

Jesus said "I am the Way the Truth and the Light " He to me is everything I need to complete this journey I hope and pray that you can very soon tell me and the rest of the world that you to have found your way.

[PersonaNonGrata]

Originally Posted by Basstian

Its was not until I read that every man must work out his own salvation with fear and trembling I realized that following a group seeking salvation was not the answer for me. I realized that personal study and soul seeking was the only path that I could follow that would leave me with the peace I had been searching for.[/QUOTE=Basstian]

Good decision.

My faith is based on what I read in the Bible both old and new testament. I believe there is a straight and narrow way that leads us to salvation. One that doesnt allow a group to walk hand in hand. But requires each person to choose their steps carefully like walking a narrow ledge picking and carefully considering each step. Follow the guy in front of you and you make the same mistakes he does. Ask advice of the person behind you and get his prediction of what lies ahead not a sure truth of what you will encounter.

I am neither Jew Nor Greek Nor Christian nor any other "religion" I see in Judism a faith in a God that in my heart I know exists and is the Creator of all things. I see in Christianity the Fulfilment of the promises made by God to the Jewish people. But I myself as of now have not found this path to salvation wide enough to walk down with either. I will continue on single file as I have been for sometime offering support to any I come across not bidding them to follow nor asking them to lead . But encouraging to continue on searching each step using Gods word as the only guide on this narrow trail.

You may find me Sunday morning singing praises, you may find me in the synagogue praying hearing the law and the prophets some sabbath, You may find me kneeling in prayer towards meeca with my Muslim brothers trying to learn real devotion, Or simply walking through the woods listening for the voice of God carried on the wind.

My advice seperate the truth from the traditions, study to the point you can tell Deception from Doctrine. Amd most important WALK ON BY FAITH

Jesus said "I am the Way the Truth and the Light " He to me is everything I need to complete this journey I hope and pray that you can very soon tell me and the rest of the world that you to have found your way.

What? What kind of a dilemma are we in

??

[PersonaNonGrata]

Originally Posted by Blue

I have to agree with Brian, Postmaster, and do not see how what you have stated in your last post has any bearing on it?

Prophets surely set themselves up as 'superior', because they claim to 'know' something, just through personal feelings, others don't know.

The quran is an exceptional case, however mohammed interferes with his daily life quite a lot, i would recommend all of you to take a look at it.

[Basstian]

What? What kind of a dilemma are we in??

PersonaNonGrata I would be pleased to answer this question if you would ask in more detail.

Peace