True Self-No Self

[earl]

Originally Posted by Iacchus

I don't think this is possible, unless you were to say there was no distinction between man and God. That isn't to say man can't become more like God, however. This I do believe is possible. In which case we begin to define ourselves in terms of "graciousness" which, is still a definable quality, by the way. Although to understand this, would be to give credit to God and not ourselves.

To use the theistic terms you use, let me put it this way, how much "self" do you need to find "God?" take care, earl

[Iacchus]

According to Matthew 18:1-5, "when we become converted and become as little children."

[earl]

Originally Posted by Iacchus

According to Matthew 18:1-5, "when we become converted and become as little children."

Ah, well then, of course the younger the child the less developed sense of self they have. earl

[Ciel]

Originally Posted by Iacchus

We all have our 'inner-being." This is what guides us and motivates us, whether we realize it or not. To some, this takes on an outwardly or worldly appearance, with the focus on one's own personal gain, although they may attempt to disguise it -- through deceit -- because this is what they cherish most.

Iacchus,

Is this deceit the notion of the child of you?

Would a more mature version have more understanding?

Even compassion?

- c -

[Iacchus]

Originally Posted by Ciel

Iacchus,

Is this deceit the notion of the child of you?

Only to the extent that it becomes spoiled and corrupted.

Would a more mature version have more understanding?

Even compassion?

Yes, but only so long as we maintain the perception of small child, which is more a matter of not maintaining any "preconceived" notions.

[Ciel]

Originally Posted by Iacchus

...........more a matter of not maintaining any "preconceived" notions.

A good place to be.... yet imperative to remain in light.

- c -

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by earl

Ah, well then, of course the younger the child the less developed sense of self they have. earl

Young enough to still be in the undifferentiated state? The irony here is that to get beyond the idea of self, we cannot go back to this state, those who stay in this state are unbalanced and narcissistic. A child must differentiate in a healthy way, and develop a healthy sense of self. For some this process takes many years, some never do develop properly. And as Thomas Merton points out it is then we can go "through" this self into the non-self.

Wilber points out the problems of what he calls the "Pre-Trans Fallacy" in which we mistake the oceanic feelings of early childhood for a mature mystical union.

[juantoo3]

My apologies for interrupting...

WOW, Iacchus! I haven't seen you around in a very long time! Great to see you back!

I now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion...

[earl]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Young enough to still be in the undifferentiated state? The irony here is that to get beyond the idea of self, we cannot go back to this state, those who stay in this state are unbalanced and narcissistic. A child must differentiate in a healthy way, and develop a healthy sense of self. For some this process takes many years, some never do develop properly. And as Thomas Merton points out it is then we can go "through" this self into the non-self.

Wilber points out the problems of what he calls the "Pre-Trans Fallacy" in which we mistake the oceanic feelings of early childhood for a mature mystical union.

Yes, Paladin, am aware of Wilber's fine point there. T'was merely tweaking folks' "solid" & perhaps unquestioning assumptions about "self." earl

[Paladin]

I should have realized that Earl

[earl]

When it comes to the "Pre-Trans" fallacy, have always liked the age-old phrase coined by psychologist, Jack Engler, over 20 years ago: "you have to be somebody before you can be nobody." earl

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by earl

When it comes to the "Pre-Trans" fallacy, have always liked the age-old phrase coined by psychologist, Jack Engler, over 20 years ago: "you have to be somebody before you can be nobody." earl

That's a great quote Earl, reminds me of the chapter on the same subject in "Chop Wood Carry Water"

[Iacchus]

Joseph Campbell says "follow your bliss." The only way we can do that is to become as a small child.

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Iacchus

Joseph Campbell says "follow your bliss." The only way we can do that is to become as a small child.

In proper context, that meant to find an occupation that you enjoy, to earn your livelihood in a manner that makes you want to get out of bed in the morning. It really had little to do with small children, other than that he was speaking of watching a young child do something that sparked a conversation with his father that prompted Campbell to reach this conclusion. There's nothing esoteric or remarkably profound to Campbell's comment.

[Iacchus]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

In proper context, that meant to find an occupation that you enjoy, to earn your livelihood in a manner that makes you want to get out of bed in the morning.

Or, in the sense that you find what clicks and/or resonates with you interiorly, and hence derive a sense of fulfillment and joy in life.

It really had little to do with small children, other than that he was speaking of watching a young child do something that sparked a conversation with his father that prompted Campbell to reach this conclusion.

Really? I wasn't aware of this.

There's nothing esoteric or remarkably profound to Campbell's comment.

Except to the extent that we find out how to be genuinely happy in life, with a sense of awe and wonder (of a small child), it is extended into the next.