Trinity

[Pico]

The trinity is def. one of the most difficult concepts about God to understand.

How can God be three and one at the same time? Many people reject God being three persons of one nature on principle.

Romans 1:19-20 says, "19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

Check it out:

• The universe is made up of Space, Time, and Matter (you could also say energy, but matter is just a different form of energy)
• Space is made up of 3 dimensions (three-in-one)
• Time in one dimension but understood as Past, Present, and Future (three-in-one)
• Ordinary matter is made up of Atoms: which are made up of Protons, Neutrons, and Electrons--except for Hydrogen, which normally doesn't have neutrons (three-in-one)
  • Protons and Neutrons are comprised of 3 smaller particles called quarks (three-in-one)

[mee]

Originally Posted by Pico

The trinity is def. one of the most difficult concepts about God to understand.

i am glad to say that the God of the bible is not a God of confusion.

divine revelation itself does not allow for such a view of God: “God is not a God of confusion.”—1 Corinthians 14:33, Revised Standard Version (RS).

[mee]

THROUGHOUT the ancient world, as far back as Babylonia, the worship of pagan gods grouped in threes, or triads, was common. That influence was also prevalent in Egypt, Greece, and Rome in the centuries before, during, and after Christ. And after the death of the apostles, such pagan beliefs began to invade Christianity.

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Pico

Check it out:

• The universe is made up of Space, Time, and Matter (you could also say energy, but matter is just a different form of energy)
• Space is made up of 3 dimensions (three-in-one)
• Time in one dimension but understood as Past, Present, and Future (three-in-one)
• Ordinary matter is made up of Atoms: which are made up of Protons, Neutrons, and Electrons--except for Hydrogen, which normally doesn't have neutrons (three-in-one)
  • Protons and Neutrons are comprised of 3 smaller particles called quarks (three-in-one)

I like the concept, but it doesn't really work when you consider a lot of the modern theories about the universe. For example, in string theory, space has 11 dimensions. Time only has past/present/future because of the way we conceptualize it. In fact, time could be understood in any number of ways (some really great ideas about how time could work in other worlds is in a little novel called Einstein's Dreams). Some languages don't have a past or future tense, also, so the conceptualization of time as linear is unique to some cultures. Other cultures may see time as cyclical or momentary (now only- what is and what is not at this moment). Also, I thought I'd read that some theorize the universe is made up of opposing energies- matter and dark matter, energy and dark energy, etc.

However, I think the Trinity gets to some very basic, intuitive ideas about relationship. Me, you, and the relationship in between us. The concept of three-in-one helps me experience the mystery of connection. I'm not necessarily Trinitarian or not; I sort of accept both/and.

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by mee

THROUGHOUT the ancient world, as far back as Babylonia, the worship of pagan gods grouped in threes, or triads, was common.

Indeed. Triunes are everywhere ... then so are ones, twos, fours ...

Originally Posted by mee

And after the death of the apostles, such pagan beliefs began to invade Christianity.

Utter nonsense.

However you try and cut it, the fact remains that 1800 years after the founding of Christianity, and thousands of years after Abraham was called, someone in America decides 'you're all wrong, this is it' ... now if that is not 'a man-made tradition' ...

... and St Paul, as do all the Apostles, warned the faithful not to listen to the voice of falsehood ... we still teach precisely what Our Lord, what the Apostles and what their successors taught ... it is you who have decided to interpret Scripture according to your own lights ...

1 John 5:7
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

Thomas

[Thomas]

There are three things one should bear in mind about The Trinity:

1: It is a Mystery
You can enter into it, but you will never understand it ...

2: "The Trinity is like ... "
Whatever you say can only ever be an analogy, it can never be precisely or actually what The Trinity is like.

3: Don't start me talking ...

Having said that, if you were to ask me, I would say The Trinity is communio ... think about the Mystery, not the analogy.

And start with the Holy Spirit, the Shy One, the Paraclete ... for the 'way in' to the Trinitarian Life is in Him.

Pax tecum,

Thomas

[Still thinking]

Originally Posted by mee

i am glad to say that the God of the bible is not a God of confusion.

divine revelation itself does not allow for such a view of God: “God is not a God of confusion.”—1 Corinthians 14:33, Revised Standard Version (RS).

I know many people would disagree that God is not confusing. While the message of the Gospel is fairly straightforward, many arguments could be made about the current state of the world and God's hand (or lack thereof) in it. A simplistic explanation would be that it's all a result of our sin. I'm not saying I agree or disagree, I'm just saying that God is both beautifully simple and infinitely complex. (as is the Trinity).

[Pico]

Originally Posted by Still thinking

While the message of the Gospel is fairly straightforward, many arguments could be made about the current state of the world and God's hand (or lack thereof) in it.

As my pastor said: "We reap the consequences of what life without God creates, and we blame God for the mess that we've created."

[mee]

Originally Posted by Thomas

... and St Paul, as do all the Apostles, warned the faithful not to listen to the voice of falsehood ...

1 John 5:7
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

Thomas

yes that is very true , the faithful were indeed warned about the great apostacy . and yes it did infiltrate the congregations ,and it came from men in the congregations, just as the bible foretold .

the bible really is the word of God and always comes true . and in the 4th century the finalizing of the great apostacy was declared.


but now in the last days the true knowledge is abundant indeed ,and falsehood is very clear to see.

and the spurious words that were added to the bible have been revealed and done away with.
7 For there are three witness bearers, 8 the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement. 1 john 7-8 now thats more like it should be .

[Still thinking]

Originally Posted by Pico

As my pastor said: "We reap the consequences of what life without God creates, and we blame God for the mess that we've created."

I believe I addressed that explanation in my first post. While very true, it fails to address the many horrors of our world that have nothing to do with our own sins or the sins of others. Unless, of course, you believe that diseases, poverty, and the like are God's punishment for something wrong, which I do not.

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by mee

yes that is very true , the faithful were indeed warned about the great apostacy. and yes it did infiltrate the congregations, and it came from men in the congregations, just as the bible foretold.

From where I stand, following an unbroken tradition of continuous and undifferentiated teaching ... it is you who are the apostate ... you have set up a rival congregation. The real saints are the ones who work from within, to make things right, who, motivated by love, bear with the faults of their neighbour (Am I without fault?) and not the ones who set themselves up in opposition.

Originally Posted by mee

the bible really is the word of God and always comes true. and in the 4th century the finalizing of the great apostacy was declared.

You link two statements together where no actual link exists ... this is your tradition, not the Bible's.

"Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am?
Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God." Matthew 16:15-16.
Christology was founded on verses such as this, and others, that demonstrate the divinity of the man ... Jesus Christ is 'true God, and true man' as we confess, and theology is still unpacking the meaning of that credal statement ... but we believe as His followers believed.

And there are those, who cannot or choose not to believe, who choose to qualify, to condition and limit that belief, to determine the Bible according to themselves. It is an indisputable fact that Catholic and Orthodox believe in the Absolute Truth of Scripture, absolutely. Your doctrines, like so many other, make that Word provisional ...

... do not be mistaken, you are free to believe as you will, but please do not try and tell me I am in error ... because I will refute you.

"And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church... "
If you believed the Bible, you would believe that statement. If you believed that statement, you would love his Church for His sake.

"and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
You have no faith in Him if you walk away.

"And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven."
This is a clear commission entrusted to Peter and his successors ... the Church ... as the Bible clearly demonstrates. It is you who declare that what that Church 'binds on earth' is apostacy, so you're saying that Jesus was wrong.

Originally Posted by mee

but now in the last days the true knowledge is abundant indeed, and falsehood is very clear to see.

Indeed it is. There are those who love the Church that He founded, for all her faults, and those who rail against it.

Originally Posted by mee

and the spurious words that were added to the bible have been revealed and done away with.

According to the very recent opinions of those with a very limited knowledge of the language of the Bible, and no sense of its time and place.

It is an inescapable fact that the Bible was written by the people, inspired by God, but written by men. It was not a Book that Abraham stumbled across on his travels, nor was it a manual Our Lord left at His ascension.

The Sacred Scriptures are the witness of the believing community, that others might come to know the truth, and that error might be refuted, but the community — the Tradition — was there before the Scripture, and those Scriptures rightly belong to the community, it is they who received and accepted them as accurately reflecting what they have witnessed, what they have been told, and what they believe ... and what they have come to know. If you want to understand the truth of Scripture, you enquire of the community to which it belongs, or you make it up for yourself.

Originally Posted by mee

For there are three witness bearers, the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement. 1 John 5:7-8

Amen! The Spirit is the Holy Spirit, the Parclete, and the water is the confession we make in Baptism, in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and the blood is the Eucharist ... of He Who Went Before to overcome death and draw all men to Himself.

That is what the Apostles preached. That is what I believe. That is what the first Christians believed. I profess the same belief as them. Much as you would argue otherwise, the evidence is that the Creed was not composed in some back room by a cabal in the fourth or any other century, the Creed is founded on the words of the Baptismal Rites that were instituted at the very outset ... before some of the Scriptures were even written.

The great Council of Nicea in 325 was not the idea of the Emperor Constantine, nor of some 300 bishops who decided "now for something completely different" ... the Council was called to settle a dispute that was raised by the laity who lived and worked in the docks, the simple laity and the faithful of the Church, who listened to a gifted preacher (Arius) and said ... "Wait! This is not what I was taught, this is not what I believe! This is not the oath I took at my baptism!" And took their complaint to the Bishop...

The Symbol of Nicea, the profession of faith, was based on those baptismal words, and affirmed what the faithful believed.

Thomas

[Pico]

Originally Posted by Still thinking

Unless, of course, you believe that diseases, poverty, and the like are God's punishment for something wrong, which I do not.

No, it's just part of the natural by-product of a sin-filled world. Which is part of the mess life without God produces.

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Still thinking

I believe I addressed that explanation in my first post. While very true, it fails to address the many horrors of our world that have nothing to do with our own sins or the sins of others. Unless, of course, you believe that diseases, poverty, and the like are God's punishment for something wrong, which I do not.

I don't see horrors in our world that aren't of our own making. Death, disease, decay, and disasters lead to new life, new creation. They are difficult, but many traditions do not see them as horrors. It is part of living on a dynamic, living earth as opposed to a static world.

Poverty is our own doing. We have plenty of stuff on earth. We just need to learn to share it better.

ETA: many diseases are our own doing, too. I can discuss in detail, but it's sort of peripheral to the conversation. But consider how most diseases are linked to problems humans create: pollution, stress, overwork, bad diets, sexual promiscuity and inequality (women being unable to protect themselves in many countries), malnutrition...

[Pico]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

They are difficult, but many traditions do not see them as horrors. It is part of living on a dynamic, living earth as opposed to a static world.

I was once told that Christianity is the only religion in the world where death his considered an "enemy." All others say it's the natural way life is.

Perhaps I'm one of the few who think things shouldn't be that way.

[path_of_one]

Many Christians that I know would agree with you. I don't necessarily think death with suffering is how it was meant to be, but death is not an enemy to me. But then, I'm Druid as well as Christian, so my views on death, disease, and natural disasters are influenced by that.

I don't know if Christianity is the only religion that believes death is unnatural, but it isn't the only one that believes it is an enemy or evil. I've read about others (particularly some indigenous shamanic ones) that see death this way, even to the extent of being afraid of the recently dead.