Trinity

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

If a person blasphemes Jesus, will it be forgiven? If a person blasphemes the Holy Spirit, will it be forgiven?

The relationship between the names of the Father and that of the Holy Spirit, might be seen as similar to that of the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) and the name "HaShem" in Jewish terminology.

The Tetragrammaton is more sacred than "HaShem" even though both are names for God in Judaism.

I think the difference between "Father" and that of the "Holy Spirit" is similar. The name "Holy Spirit" is more sacred than "Father."

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Yes you exist and you are one entity.

But......your phenomenon, the Quahom phenomenon, your online personality is not the real "you." Or at least.....not the whole you. It can only ever be an image, a projection of you. Same with me. This is not the real "me." What you see is the Saltmeister phenomenon. It's just a projection of me.

Even if you found out my address and....ding dong....knocked on my door. You still wouldn't know the real me....the whole me. It is still just a projection of me.

The only way to know the real me, whole me, is to read my mind, or perform a mind meld. Where we say, my mind, your mind, our minds are one.

The real you, the whole you, is one existent entity. But the projection of you exists only in my mind. It is not even an entity. It is an image I have of you.

Nevertheless, when we interact online, it is two real personalities interacting. Real feelings. Real attitudes. Real needs. Even if some things are hidden. The phenomenon is as real as its source......If I insult the online personality (the spirit), I might well be "blaspheming" against its source (father).

Oh dear, it sounds more to me like being....married

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

The relationship between the names of the Father and that of the Holy Spirit, might be seen as similar to that of the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) and the name "HaShem" in Jewish terminology.

The Tetragrammaton is more sacred than "HaShem" even though both are names for God in Judaism.

I think the difference between "Father" and that of the "Holy Spirit" is similar. The name "Holy Spirit" is more sacred than "Father."

That's because the Holy Spirit acts upon us daily and directly. While the other two personages are busy building a huge "mansion" for us to come play in...

[Joedjr]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

He said "The Father and I are one". He also said "The Father is in me, and I am in the Father". He also said "No one can get the the Father but through me, and the Father comes to you by me."

Hi Quahom1
I actually prefer this from John 6: from the NASB

43:Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves.
44:"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
45:"It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught of G!d.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
46:"Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from G!d; He has seen the Father.

Joe

[Joedjr]

Hi,
A "picture" from Revelation 5: from the NASB

5:and one of the elders said to me, "Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals."
6:And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of G!d, sent out into all the earth.
7:And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.
8:When he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
9:And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for G!d with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

Joe

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Just think there's an unnecessary barrier between Trinitarians and non-Trinitarians.

When you say that "God is revealed in three persons," you are saying that God is somehow projecting Himself. Anything that projects itself has a Phenomenon, so the so-called "three persons" could be thought of as part of the Phenomenon.

But my point is that it is not essential to see God as triune.

As a christian, it is necessary to see God as Father, Son, Holy Spirit because Christ is divine, honored, and glorified, and because the dwelling of the Holy Spirit leads one to acknowledge that Christ is Lord. Because we acknowledge the deity of Christ, we are able to worship Christ and accept his salvation and forgiveness of sins as God, because we know that He is God. So the barrier is not simply trinitarians vs non-trinitarians, it is the deity of christ vs. non-deity of christ, and worshiping in spirit and truth vs worshiping in ignorance, and to not understand that Christ is Lord makes all the difference in the world. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.

When is say God is revealed in three persons, I would not use projecting, because it doesnt really fit the distinctness as well as the oneness of each person, I think i would use proceed instead. All things proceed from the Father, because He is the source, but they are all God, they cannot do that which God does not do and what they do is what God does, but at the same time, they have their own distinct personage and role to fill, all of which is how God accomplishes his will.

By "person" is meant the characteristics of self awareness, speech, having a will, emotions, etc. Therefore, there are three persons. The Father is not the same person as the Son; the Son is not the same person as the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is not the same person as Father as each of them have a will and speak to each other and to people. So it is more than just a "projection" They are not three separate gods and are not three separate beings. They are three distinct persons; yet, they are all the one God. They are in absolute perfect harmony consisting of one substance. They are coeternal, coequal, and copowerful.

[Lecter]

Originally Posted by Pico

Check it out:

• The universe is made up of Space, Time, and Matter (you could also say energy, but matter is just a different form of energy)
• Space is made up of 3 dimensions (three-in-one)
• Time in one dimension but understood as Past, Present, and Future (three-in-one)
• Ordinary matter is made up of Atoms: which are made up of Protons, Neutrons, and Electrons--except for Hydrogen, which normally doesn't have neutrons (three-in-one)
  • Protons and Neutrons are comprised of 3 smaller particles called quarks (three-in-one)

Wow. Human beings are male and female. Does this mean God is two?

The truth is that Jesus not even once mentioned the word trinity or said that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one God.

Not only does such statement does not exist, Jesus even spoke AGAINST it. Don't believe everything you are told, heck don't even take my word for it, investigate the matter yourself.

Mark 10:18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.

Here Jesus confirms he is not to be called good since only ONE is good and that is god alone.

[Joedjr]

Hi,
A little more from the NASB.

Matthew 23:
8:"But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers
9:"Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
10"Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.

Luke 10:
21:At that very time He rejoiced greatly in the Holy Spirit, and said, "I praise You, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and revealed them to infants. Yes, Father for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight.

John 5:
30:"I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will. but the will of Him who sent Me.
31:"If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true.
32:"There is another who testifies of Me, and I know that the testimony which He gives about Me is true.

Joe

[Pico]

Originally Posted by Lecter

Wow. Human beings are male and female. Does this mean God is two?

The truth is that Jesus not even once mentioned the word trinity or said that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one God.

Not only does such statement does not exist, Jesus even spoke AGAINST it. Don't believe everything you are told, heck don't even take my word for it, investigate the matter yourself.

Mark 10:18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.

Here Jesus confirms he is not to be called good since only ONE is good and that is god alone.

Upon investigation it appears Jesus was just testing them. For he was God in the flesh, he wanted to see if they understood that. He didn't say "i'm not God." or "I'm not good," he said "no one is good-except for God alone."

There are other places where Jesus says: if you've seen me you see the Father, if you love me you love the Father, if you worship me you worship the Father.

[Lecter]

Originally Posted by Pico

Upon investigation it appears Jesus was just testing them. For he was God in the flesh, he wanted to see if they understood that. He didn't say "i'm not God." or "I'm not good," he said "no one is good-except for God alone."

But that is not in the text. That's what you are saying, not what Jesus said.

It is also written:

John 20:17 “I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.”

Clearly here Jesus says that the one called the father is his own god just like everyone elses god.

Jesus himself worshiped god, and so should anyone else who wants to follow the teachings of Christ.

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by Lecter

But that is not in the text. That's what you are saying, not what Jesus said.

It is also written:

John 20:17 “I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.”

Clearly here Jesus says that the one called the father is his own god just like everyone elses god.

Jesus himself worshiped god, and so should anyone else who wants to follow the teachings of Christ.

By you just pointing out a scripture to fit your argument your agenda becomes apparent, and your ability to see beyond it becomes clouded. Sometimes what we dont see doesnt make something wrong becomes it doesnt outright say it, but it shows our inability to have read it in its entirety, or not listen because of our preconceived notions. The Word of God, that was with God and is God humbled himself as a servant to die for our sins under the law. Being a man he rightly acknowledges the Father in heaven as God, but that does not take away his divinity. If you wanted to put as much effort in denying Christ, as accepting Christ you could also point out where God the Father proclaims His Son as God and our God, as well as the prophets foretelling the Messiah as the Saviour which is an attribute and manifestation of God alone. So worshiping God in heaven like Jesus taught is correct, and worshiping Christ that the Father calls God, and being the Saviour, and the creator, the Word of God, and the Son of God is correct too. There is no salvation from God without his Son. The Son is God's Salvation, He is everlasting life. But i guess i wouldn't expect you to since that is not where have decided to focus all of your energy. But one day we will all see and kneel to Christ, full of glory, and judging all from the throne of God. You will then know, if you do not in this lifetime, know that Christ is Lord.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Lecter

Wow. Human beings are male and female. Does this mean God is two?

The truth is that Jesus not even once mentioned the word trinity or said that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one God.

Not only does such statement does not exist, Jesus even spoke AGAINST it. Don't believe everything you are told, heck don't even take my word for it, investigate the matter yourself.

Mark 10:18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.

Here Jesus confirms he is not to be called good since only ONE is good and that is god alone.

While on Earth Jesus put away his godhead, therefore he was human. So his statement was accurate.

And Jesus did mention the Father and the Holy Spirit in conjunction with himself. Prior to his ascention into Heaven 40 days after rising from the dead and being transformed to more than human (there's that number 40 again, must be something special about that number in the bible), Jesus told his followers that he must leave and go to the Father, but that another would come and be with them (and the world) always. That was the Holy Spirit.

[Lecter]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

By you just pointing out a scripture to fit your argument your agenda becomes apparent, and your ability to see beyond it becomes clouded. Sometimes what we dont see doesnt make something wrong becomes it doesnt outright say it, but it shows our inability to have read it in its entirety, or not listen because of our preconceived notions.

I am glad you decided to attack me rather than address my argument

The Word of God, that was with God and is God humbled himself as a servant to die for our sins under the law. Being a man he rightly acknowledges the Father in heaven as God, but that does not take away his divinity.

That is what you are saying, or what the church wants you to believe. The text and the words of Christ himself say otherwise.

The text does not say: "I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God, but I am also God i am just humbling myself"

Jesus clearly mentions that the father isn't just his father, and he also clearly says that he is his own god.

But one day we will all see and kneel to Christ, full of glory, and judging all from the throne of God. You will then know, if you do not in this lifetime, know that Christ is Lord.

I would rather follow Christ and not you and join him in kneeling and prostrating myself to god:

Matthew 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

[Lecter]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

While on Earth Jesus put away his godhead, therefore he was human. So his statement was accurate.

Did Jesus according to the gospels say that he was temporarily putting away his godhead? Why can't you say the same about Moses? Maybe Moses never says he is god because he only becomes God after death...

See what I mean?

The truth is Jesus never makes such a claim in the gospel.

Jesus told his followers that he must leave and go to the Father, but that another would come and be with them (and the world) always. That was the Holy Spirit.

Jesus tells him he is going to send them another comforter because if he does not leave he will not come. However according to the scripture the holy spirit was already there, so he could not have been talking about the holy spirit. He was talking about someone else, especially because he refers to the comforter as he and not it.

With that said, what does that have to do with anything?

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by Lecter

That is what you are saying, or what the church wants you to believe. The text and the words of Christ himself say otherwise.

The text does not say: "I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God, but I am also God i am just humbling myself"

Jesus clearly mentions that the father isn't just his father, and he also clearly says that he is his own god.



I would rather follow Christ and not you and join him in kneeling and prostrating myself to god:

Matthew 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

i am repeating what the bible says. again you are leaving out the parts of the bible where the Father calls the Son God and leaving out the parts where Christ is worshiped, honored and glorified, and you are leaving out parts that say Jesus is the Word of God, who was with God, and is God. and you are leaving out the parts where Christ is called eternal life, a lamp to one's feet, the saviour, redeemer, and all other attributes of God.