Translations

[mee]

Originally Posted by truthseeker

The New World Translation is not right. It is a condemning piece of material that preaches the truth of a wrathful God. Not one of love, not one of peace, not one recognizing all his children that are atoned for by the blood of Jesus. It preaches hatred for the rest of the world. It is judgemental and destructive. It promotes pride to a group of fearful people that would otherwise be among the lost and downtrodden. Flip it around, and the rest of the world is lost and downtrodden.
There is the truth - "for we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, and spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand." (Ephesians 6:12-13)

I ask you right now Father to bring peace among your faithful, mighty Lord, that we may not be misled to fight a battle that you yourself have said is yours to fight. I ask that you bring peace among seeking souls, father, that your seed has been planted, that your will be done, that you cast out the stronghold of Satan among those who aim to seek your truth and righteousness. I understand Lord that where there is peace and love you dwell among them. I cast you out RIGHT NOW Satan in the mighty name of Jesus - which even now brings peace to my soul. In your Glory. In Jesus name, Amen.

No disrespect, Moderators. I will bow out gracefully at this time.

"FULL of falsifications!" Back in the 16th century, that is what opposers said about Martin Luther’s translation of the Bible. They believed they could prove that Luther’s Bible contained "1,400 heretical errors and lies." Today, Luther’s Bible is viewed as a landmark translation. The book Translating the Bible even calls it "a work of genius"!

In this 20th century, the New World Translation has also been charged with falsification. Why? Because it departs from the traditional rendering of many verses and stresses the use of God’s name, Jehovah. Hence, it is unconventional. But does this make it false? No. It was produced with much care and attention to detail, and what may appear unfamiliar represents a sincere effort to represent carefully the nuances of the original languages. Theologian C. Houtman explains the reason for the unorthodoxy of the New World Translation: "Various traditional translations of important terms from the original text have been discarded, apparently in order to arrive at the best possible understanding

Certain unfamiliar terms supposedly invented by Jehovah’s Witnesses are supported by other Bible translations or reference works.

Luther’s Bible was criticized because it was produced by a man who exposed the shortcomings of the traditional religion of his day. His translation opened the way for ordinary people to see the truth of much of what he said. Similarly, the New World Translation is criticized because it is published by Jehovah’s Witnesses, who outspokenly declare that many of Christendom’s doctrines are not found in the Bible. The New World Translation—indeed, any Bible—makes this evident.

In fact, the New World Translation is a scholarly work. In 1989, Professor Benjamin Kedar of Israel said: "In my linguistic research in connection with the Hebrew Bible and translations, I often refer to the English edition of what is known as the New World Translation. In so doing, I find my feeling repeatedly confirmed that this work reflects an honest endeavor to achieve an understanding of the text that is as accurate as possible. Giving evidence of a broad command of the original language, it renders the original words into a second language understandably without deviating unnecessarily from the specific structure of the Hebrew. . . . Every statement of language allows for a certain latitude in interpreting or translating. So the linguistic solution in any given case may be open to debate. But I have never discovered in the New World Translation any biased intent to read something into the text that it does not contain."

Millions of Bible readers worldwide use the New World Translation because it is a modern-language translation that renders Bible terms with accuracy.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mee

"FULL of falsifications!" Back in the 16th century, that is what opposers said about Martin Luther’s translation of the Bible. They believed they could prove that Luther’s Bible contained "1,400 heretical errors and lies." Today, Luther’s Bible is viewed as a landmark translation. The book Translating the Bible even calls it "a work of genius"!

In this 20th century, the New World Translation has also been charged with falsification. Why? Because it departs from the traditional rendering of many verses and stresses the use of God’s name, Jehovah. Hence, it is unconventional. But does this make it false? No. It was produced with much care and attention to detail, and what may appear unfamiliar represents a sincere effort to represent carefully the nuances of the original languages. Theologian C. Houtman explains the reason for the unorthodoxy of the New World Translation: "Various traditional translations of important terms from the original text have been discarded, apparently in order to arrive at the best possible understanding

Certain unfamiliar terms supposedly invented by Jehovah’s Witnesses are supported by other Bible translations or reference works.

Luther’s Bible was criticized because it was produced by a man who exposed the shortcomings of the traditional religion of his day. His translation opened the way for ordinary people to see the truth of much of what he said. Similarly, the New World Translation is criticized because it is published by Jehovah’s Witnesses, who outspokenly declare that many of Christendom’s doctrines are not found in the Bible. The New World Translation—indeed, any Bible—makes this evident.

In fact, the New World Translation is a scholarly work. In 1989, Professor Benjamin Kedar of Israel said: "In my linguistic research in connection with the Hebrew Bible and translations, I often refer to the English edition of what is known as the New World Translation. In so doing, I find my feeling repeatedly confirmed that this work reflects an honest endeavor to achieve an understanding of the text that is as accurate as possible. Giving evidence of a broad command of the original language, it renders the original words into a second language understandably without deviating unnecessarily from the specific structure of the Hebrew. . . . Every statement of language allows for a certain latitude in interpreting or translating. So the linguistic solution in any given case may be open to debate. But I have never discovered in the New World Translation any biased intent to read something into the text that it does not contain."

Millions of Bible readers worldwide use the New World Translation because it is a modern-language translation that renders Bible terms with accuracy.

Well now...Hello Mee! Nice to see you have a very strong personal opinion. Now we can really discuss issues.

v/r

Q

p.s. I'm gathering my thoughts and will get back with you on this.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Ok, it's getting a bit warm around here. And I personally do not want to be in fire before I absolutely have to.

It is time for us to "cool down". We are here to discuss issues, and "attacking" others here on CR is prohibited, verbotten, nonka. Capish?

v/r

Q

I'm afraid I have to second this, guys.

I am glad to see Mee presenting some of his own opinions rather than cut and paste. For legal and scholarship reasons, quotes should be minimal and pertinent, credit the author, and cite the source or provide a link if on the internet. Plagiarism is a big no-no.

I could really stir the pot because I see things I agree with on both sides, as well as things I disagree with on both sides. But things are better off if they cool down a bit first, please.

[truthseeker]

Originally Posted by mee

"FULL of falsifications!" Back in the 16th century, that is what opposers said about Martin Luther’s translation of the Bible. They believed they could prove that Luther’s Bible contained "1,400 heretical errors and lies." Today, Luther’s Bible is viewed as a landmark translation. The book Translating the Bible even calls it "a work of genius"!

In this 20th century, the New World Translation has also been charged with falsification. Why? Because it departs from the traditional rendering of many verses and stresses the use of God’s name, Jehovah. Hence, it is unconventional. But does this make it false? No. It was produced with much care and attention to detail, and what may appear unfamiliar represents a sincere effort to represent carefully the nuances of the original languages. Theologian C. Houtman explains the reason for the unorthodoxy of the New World Translation: "Various traditional translations of important terms from the original text have been discarded, apparently in order to arrive at the best possible understanding

Certain unfamiliar terms supposedly invented by Jehovah’s Witnesses are supported by other Bible translations or reference works.

Luther’s Bible was criticized because it was produced by a man who exposed the shortcomings of the traditional religion of his day. His translation opened the way for ordinary people to see the truth of much of what he said. Similarly, the New World Translation is criticized because it is published by Jehovah’s Witnesses, who outspokenly declare that many of Christendom’s doctrines are not found in the Bible. The New World Translation—indeed, any Bible—makes this evident.

In fact, the New World Translation is a scholarly work. In 1989, Professor Benjamin Kedar of Israel said: "In my linguistic research in connection with the Hebrew Bible and translations, I often refer to the English edition of what is known as the New World Translation. In so doing, I find my feeling repeatedly confirmed that this work reflects an honest endeavor to achieve an understanding of the text that is as accurate as possible. Giving evidence of a broad command of the original language, it renders the original words into a second language understandably without deviating unnecessarily from the specific structure of the Hebrew. . . . Every statement of language allows for a certain latitude in interpreting or translating. So the linguistic solution in any given case may be open to debate. But I have never discovered in the New World Translation any biased intent to read something into the text that it does not contain."

Millions of Bible readers worldwide use the New World Translation because it is a modern-language translation that renders Bible terms with accuracy.

Millions of Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide use the New World Translation because it is a modern translation that renders Bible philosophy with convenience.
You should state your source of cut and pastes - it is the proper thing to do.

[mee]

Originally Posted by truthseeker

Millions of Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide use the New World Translation because it is a modern translation that renders Bible philosophy with convenience.
You should state your source of cut and pastes - it is the proper thing to do.

for me myself , i find the NWTto be a translation that is as near to the original word of God as is possible at this point in time, i am so thankful that Jehovah has appointed the Faithful slave class to accomplish this fine translation(matt 24;45-47)jehovahs people always use this fine channel ,how we are looked after by Jehovah our God in this time of the end.
True Christians avoid mixing Bible truth with human philosophy .as for convenience ,to stay close to the pure saying of God makes it harder to be a christian because it is not going along the easy road of the world in general so i would have to disagree with that

The sayings of Jehovah are pure sayings,

As silver refined in a smelting furnace of earth, clarified seven times(psalm 12;6)

Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth(john 17;17)

By faithfully appealing to this pure Word of God Jehovahs people have been able to purify its doctrines and to keep its teaching pure and truthful

[truthseeker]

Originally Posted by mee

for me myself , i find the NWTto be a translation that is as near to the original word of God as is possible at this point in time, i am so thankful that Jehovah has appointed the Faithful slave class to accomplish this fine translation(matt 24;45-47)jehovahs people always use this fine channel ,how we are looked after by Jehovah our God in this time of the end.

Yes. He certainly does look after His people. Worldwide. All that are faithful unto Him shall put on His full armour that we may be able to withstand in the evil day. Translation is good, but it can also be detrimental in the play on words. John 3:16 in the KJV uses the word perish. John 3:16 in the NWT uses the word destroyed. Same thing, I agree, but the play on words is tremedous. To say that the original information is not good but the makeover is better may be good technologically but when it comes to the truth in how we view God it is tampering. Hebrew and Greek are a different kind of language than English. There are some words that do not translate into the English language because there is no equivalent of the expression. When getting an understanding of a text as dramatic as the Holy Scriptures, translation does indeed mean everything.

A play on words is a play on your understanding - that you are aware of. Many people see God as a loving God of all mankind and a God of vast wisdom and to be able to see into His Kingdom you have to establish a certain relationship with Him, which will spill over into how you relate to your neighbor and how you relate to yourself. When dealing with God, we must uphold ourselves in a particular manner. Either that manner is who you are, or that manner is what becomes you. Regardless, God knows who you are. But because Satan does have a great potential to have a stronghold on mankind, it is essential that you do not play sides in regard to the essence of the purpose in which God created you. You. God did not create you to stand in an army. Even Satan was a child of God. If you have children then you know what your child has the potential to do. He is an All-Mighty, All-Knowing God that created even Satan to do His Will. It presents us with the challenges that we have that makes us come back to Him. So He can show us that He reaches out in Love to all of His Creation. When God was ready to bring the Gentiles unto Him, He sent Jesus.

True Christians avoid mixing Bible truth with human philosophy .as for convenience ,to stay close to the pure saying of God makes it harder to be a christian because it is not going along the easy road of the world in general so i would have to disagree with that

It's a narrow road, but it is not difficult to live within the word of God. To live outside of the Divine is what is difficult and filled with hardship. He gives us an instruction manual on how to live right so that we may be free.

[mee]

Originally Posted by truthseeker

Yes. He certainly does look after His people. Worldwide. All that are faithful unto Him shall put on His full armour that we may be able to withstand in the evil day. Translation is good, but it can also be detrimental in the play on words. John 3:16 in the KJV uses the word perish. John 3:16 in the NWT uses the word destroyed. Same thing, I agree, but the play on words is tremedous. To say that the original information is not good but the makeover is better may be good technologically but when it comes to the truth in how we view God it is tampering. Hebrew and Greek are a different kind of language than English. There are some words that do not translate into the English language because there is no equivalent of the expression. When getting an understanding of a text as dramatic as the Holy Scriptures, translation does indeed mean everything.

A play on words is a play on your understanding - that you are aware of. Many people see God as a loving God of all mankind and a God of vast wisdom and to be able to see into His Kingdom you have to establish a certain relationship with Him, which will spill over into how you relate to your neighbor and how you relate to yourself. When dealing with God, we must uphold ourselves in a particular manner. Either that manner is who you are, or that manner is what becomes you. Regardless, God knows who you are. But because Satan does have a great potential to have a stronghold on mankind, it is essential that you do not play sides in regard to the essence of the purpose in which God created you. You. God did not create you to stand in an army. Even Satan was a child of God. If you have children then you know what your child has the potential to do. He is an All-Mighty, All-Knowing God that created even Satan to do His Will. It presents us with the challenges that we have that makes us come back to Him. So He can show us that He reaches out in Love to all of His Creation. When God was ready to bring the Gentiles unto Him, He sent Jesus.

It's a narrow road, but it is not difficult to live within the word of God. To live outside of the Divine is what is difficult and filled with hardship. He gives us an instruction manual on how to live right so that we may be free.

The original word of God is Good as you say,that is why the NWT is as near as is possible , i must disagree with you about God creating Satan ,
All of Jehovah’s works are perfect; he is not the author of unrighteousness; so he did not create anyone wicked. (Deut. 32:4; Ps. 5:4) The one who became Satan was originally a perfect spirit son of God. When saying that the Devil "did not stand fast in the truth," Jesus indicated that at one time that one was "in the truth." (John 8:44) But, as is true of all of God’s intelligent creatures, this spirit son was endowed with free will. He abused his freedom of choice, allowed feelings of self-importance to develop in his heart, began to crave worship that belonged only to God, and so enticed Adam and Eve to listen to him rather than obey God. Thus by his course of action he made himself Satan, which means "adversary."—Jas. 1:14, 15

[Faithfulservant]

John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
it never says there was ever truth in satan...it says he was a murderer from the beginning...

because you posted John chapter 8 I would like to post a bit more of it because its one of my favorites..

John 8:56-58 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

[mee]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
it never says there was ever truth in satan...it says he was a murderer from the beginning...

because you posted John chapter 8 I would like to post a bit more of it because its one of my favorites..

John 8:56-58 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

"When he [Satan] speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie." (John 8:44) So the first liar was Satan the Devil. When did he start telling lies? According to the Bible, it was shortly after the beginning of the history of the human race.

The event is recorded in the Bible book of Genesis, and the lie was a matter of life or death for mankind. God indicated to the first man, Adam, that his continued life depended on obedience. He gave Adam a simple law to keep and said that if he failed to keep that law he would "positively die." But Satan maliciously lied and said: "You positively will not die." That was the first of the billions of lies that have been heard on this planet Earth.—Genesis 2:17; 3:4.

Many today do not believe that account in the Bible. But Jesus, the most truthful man who ever lived, confirmed that the record in Genesis is not myth but true history. (Matthew 19:4, 5) Certainly, the results of that lie are still with us. It spelled disaster for the human race

[truthseeker]

Originally Posted by mee

The original word of God is Good as you say,that is why the NWT is as near as is possible , i must disagree with you about God creating Satan,
All of Jehovah’s works are perfect; he is not the author of unrighteousness; so he did not create anyone wicked. (Deut. 32:4; Ps. 5:4) The one who became Satan was originally a perfect spirit son of God.

That comment states that God created what became Satan. It is still God's creation. What is perfection is what God understands and humankind is still trying to figure out.

When saying that the Devil "did not stand fast in the truth," Jesus indicated that at one time that one was "in the truth." (John 8:44) But, as is true of all of God’s intelligent creatures, this spirit son was endowed with free will. He abused his freedom of choice, allowed feelings of self-importance to develop in his heart

So humankind suspects...

...began to crave worship that belonged only to God, and so enticed Adam and Eve to listen to him rather than obey God.

Satan told Eve that should she eat from the tree she shalt not surely die. God told them not to eat from the tree. She made a choice. She ate. Bad choice. No, Adam and Eve did not fall over and die but the relationship that they once had with God was never the same again. They had to learn what it was to get out there and get their own food and make housing for themselves and all that. Innocence died. Their eyes were opened when under the protection of God they did not know what it was to toil and labor. God still loved Adam and Eve. He loved Cain so much that although he killed his brother God still gave him protection when He told him to leave.

[Bandit]

dear mee,

some of the things you teach are true & i agree with you. but when you put some of those things out from watchtower, it is kind of like putting out the common book of prayer, science & health, or the book of mormon. these are many man made doctrines & we have to be careful with them.

[I, Brian]

There's a lot of talk immediately above this thread, but much of it is either:

1. simply copy/paste - can't be bothered to add own thoughts
2. simple condemnation - nyah, you're wrong, I'm right

It would be nice to see the issue of translations argued with more sources, personal thoughts, and reasoned arguments.

At the moment all I see above is some form of spiritual warfare, where the aim is to prove one or more people false, rather than argue an actual position relating to the topics being discussed.

[Bandit]

Here is one on the MORNING STAR.
1Cor.11:14
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.


I grew up with the King James & there were not a lot of choices. I dont see the point in me trying to learn a new translation just because others are doing that. I feel translations are often persuaded by the interpretor & often lean toward a specific religion, especially when there is another 'book' attatched, that may teach this is the only interpretation.

When it came out in English, I feel the translation brought out a lot of things to the surface that you cannot get in Latin. Some things simply do not translate well. The big picture of things is what I am interested in & it takes dividing it correctly & using it all, to get the best understanding, and this is how I study.

Here is one below that does not make sense. -MORNING STAR- I think the bible is often showing the villains & the good guys, then teaches how we can overcome & have the victory by choosing & following the best leader.
Everyone gets to choose who they will vote for and serve.
I am not sure which translations have done this, but I cannot except 2 Morning Stars, to 2 different persons..Especially when one is a good guy & the other is an outlaw. It is like giving Batman the title of the deeds of the Joker.
So, IMO it seems the new translations are hitting on some very key points in attempt to change who is who & who did what. Either Jesus is the morning star or Lucifer is. I am not going to debate with anyone who is on this, but my belief is that Jesus is the rose of sharon, the lilly of the valley & the bright and morning star.
I have no idea who Larry Spargimino is, but he did a nice job with this one.

Who Is the Morning Star?
Dr. Larry Spargimino
Question: The KJV states Lucifer is the "son of the morning." The NIV calls Lucifer "the morning star." Is there a conflict between these two?
Answer: Yes! Isaiah chapter 14 indicates that the one so named “Lucifer” in verse 12 will be “brought down to hell” according to verse 15. Verse 12 states: “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!” Verse 15 states: “Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell.”
Many Bible commentators have rightly concluded that this passage is speaking about Satan, his pride and arrogance, and his ultimate fall. This passage makes it clear that this being named “Lucifer” had many unholy ambitions. “For thou hast said,” we read in verse 13, “I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most high.” This is what got Satan into trouble: He wanted to be like God. In verse 12 Satan is in heaven; in verse 15 he is in hell.
Modern translations have an unusual rendering of Isaiah 14:12. The New International Version, for example, translates Isaiah 14:12 this way: “How you have fallen from heaven O morning star, son of the dawn…” In verse 15 the NIV says that this morning star will be “brought down to the grave.” The NIV, with virtually all of the other modern translations, with the exception of the New King James Version, speaks about this “morning star” falling from heaven and being brought “to the grave.” Who is the “morning star”?
In Revelation 22:16 the Lord Jesus Christ says: “I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.” Jesus is “the bright and morning star.” Shouldn’t we be concerned that, according to the modern translations of Isaiah 14:12, the “morning star,” identified as Jesus Christ in the New Testament falls from heaven because of pride and is cast into “hell”? Is this not the ultimate blasphemy and therefore the worst possible translation?
How did the modern versions come up with their translation? On what basis do they use the words “morning star”? Simply by adding a word to the Hebrew text. The Hebrew text has the words: “helel ben shachar.” That literally translates into“Helel, son of the morning.” You will notice that the word “star,” kokab, is not there. The modern versions translate the passage as if the Hebrew text stated: kokab shachar ben shachar. In doing so they actually add the word “star” (kokab) and repeat the word shachar, meaning “morning” or “dawn.”
But what is the justification of the modern translations for using the words “morning star”? The Hebrew helel comes from the root hll meaning “to shine.” The translation “Lucifer” is from the Latin Vulgate and comes from two Latin words, lucis, meaning “light” and fero meaning “to bring.” Neither does the Hebrew or the Latin say anything about any “star.” The source, then, of the translation “morning star” is pagan mythology. Due to the brightness of the planet Venus, and the time of its appearing, it was considered the bright and morning star. Mythology and certainly not sound linguistics calls Satan the “morning star.”
Among all the English versions readily available today, only the King James Version, and the New King James Version, establish the connection between Lucifer and Satan. This importance testimony to the rise and ultimate fall of Satan would be lost except for the testimony of these two translations.

While Lucifer does get the title of -MORNING, -STAR, transformed to an angel of Light,
SON OF etc. He does not get Morning & Star together in the same breath. He is of the night & darkness & a deciever, accuser of the brethren. Jesus is of the day & the morning star as in the rising of the sun.

Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. (even the New Testament parallels Isaiah 14:12 and confirms that the KJV is correct.) Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

How many angels were cast out with Satan? ONE THIRD.
Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:

Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and SATAN[07854] (satan) came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
07854 satan {saw-tawn'}
from 07853; TWOT - 2252a; n m
AV - Satan 19, adversary 7, withstand 1; 27
1) adversary, one who withstands
1a) adversary (in general - personal or national)
2) superhuman adversary
2a) Satan (as noun pr)

Revelation 2:24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not
known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
Revelation 2:25 But that which ye have [already] hold fast till I come.
Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even
as I received of my Father.
Revelation 2:28 And I will give him THE MORNING{3720} STAR{792}.
Revelation 2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

[mee]

this is what the NWT reads at Isaiah14;12

"O how you have fallen from heaven, you shining one, son of the dawn! How you have been cut down to the earth, you who were disabling the nations!

(Hebrew heh lel ) (shining one) (Greek ho he o spho ros) (the bringer of dawn)(morn) ( latin Lucifer)(light bearer) this name shining one was given to the babylon king because he thought he was better than God even saying he would elevate himself up to the heavens .after his fall this name was given him in a taunting way

[lunamoth]

Thank you all for your replies about the use of morning star in Isaiah. Seems that it could be a translation issue. NIV study footnotes say that in Isaiah the name refers to the king of Babylon, who is later used as a type (prefiguration) of the beast who will lead Babylon in the last days. It also in the footnotes gives the translation as Lucifer in the Latin Vulgate. It is kind of curious that most translations would choose the morning star version for Isaiah when it is used for Christ in Revelation, but I doubt it is some kind of CONSPIRACY.

If anything I think I would still conclude it is making some kind of point about satan wishing to be the usurper, thinking himself to have power and authority as ruler of Babylon (the world) but there is no question about who the true Morning Star is at the end.

lunamoth