Transfering/Imputing Sins from one man to another

[Bandit]

I dont know where to put this because I dont know what it is called or what religion teaches this. So I am starting here & maybe someone can help.

There is a belief in imputing/transfering sin from one person to another. What I am speaking of, is when a father passes away, one of the sons attends the funeral and goes through this long ceremony with food & fruit set out on a table, where the sins of his father are believed to be imputed onto the son. They keep doing this and after so many generations, the sins are removed.

I also think the son eats some of the food during this ceremony.

One of the races in Star Trek believes in this & I also saw an old black & white movie years ago where this imputation of sin was believed in.

Does anyone know what religion teaches this or where it started?

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Bandit,


thank you for the post.

umm... isn't this the Christian view of things? doesn't Jesus take the sin of the believer for Himself?

[earl]

Originally Posted by Bandit

I dont know where to put this because I dont know what it is called or what religion teaches this. So I am starting here & maybe someone can help.

There is a belief in imputing/transfering sin from one person to another. What I am speaking of, is when a father passes away, one of the sons attends the funeral and goes through this long ceremony with food & fruit set out on a table, where the sins of his father are believed to be imputed onto the son. They keep doing this and after so many generations, the sins are removed.

I also think the son eats some of the food during this ceremony.

One of the races in Star Trek believes in this & I also saw an old black & white movie years ago where this imputation of sin was believed in.

Does anyone know what religion teaches this or where it started?

Don't know re "transferring sin"-though I prefer the Greek term for sin-hamartia-which meant to "miss the mark," kinda reminds me of the buddhist notion of dukkha. Vajradhara could probably expound upon the buddhist notion of karma vikapa-cause & effect-better than me. But many contmporary buddhist teachers/writers would essentially speak of how the "sins of the fathers" that are essentailly visited upon the children may be seen as part of their collective karmic burden to bear but when met with equanimity, compassion, "selflessness," becomes an opportunity for healing and easing that human quotient of "karmic sin" our "fathers" passed along to us. thereby pain becomes joy, darkness light in ways that perhaps would not have occurred had the "sin" not been there like a grain of sand turned to pearl within the oyster. Take care, Earl

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

Namaste Bandit,


thank you for the post.

umm... isn't this the Christian view of things? doesn't Jesus take the sin of the believer for Himself?

well no it is not my view at all Vajradhara & I cant say Christian either, but maybe for some I am thinking it could have got stacked on top of the bible with all the other stuff that is stacked on it & that is kind of why I am asking.

But I am just trying to find out where the particular belief started. I dont think there are very many people who believe it, but they actually do a ceremony at funerals & have the sins of the dead imputed into themselves (living people, like one of the sons).
Then after so many generations of doing this, the sins go away. Kind of like a curse & I am thinking it may have been a 7 generations thing from start to finish. I wish I knew what they call it. They did it once on an episode of Star Trek, a long time ago.

Jesus kind of goes the opposite way with it.

[brucegdc]

From the blue letter bible:

Exd 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear [the guilty]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth [generation].

Could be a source for the belief...

[earl]

Originally Posted by brucegdc

From the blue letter bible:

Exd 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear [the guilty]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth [generation].

Could be a source for the belief...

Yes, there are actually several verses in the Old Testament along these lines. Also, for more along the lines of "karma and inherited sin" like i spoke of, you could see a web article by the same title: http://www.origin.org/ucs/ws/theme094.cfm

Take care, Earl

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by earl

Yes, there are actually several verses in the Old Testament along these lines. Also, for more along the lines of "karma and inherited sin" like i spoke of, you could see a web article by the same title: http://www.origin.org/ucs/ws/theme094.cfm

Take care, Earl

yah, this is kind of what I am thinking about. that site seemed to include just about everyone across the board in on this. it is close, but what i am thinking is where one of the children actually chooses to & transfer sin from a relative which is kind of different than inheriting or karma. (i think)
but you guys are on track with what I am remembering about it.
if you find anything else, let me know & Thank You.

[brucegdc]

Could you be thinking of the Mormon (LDS) practice of baptizing (and doing other sacraments) one's ancestors once you've gone through it for yourself? Not so much taking on the sin yourself, but taking the sacraments on behalf of them, thus enabling them to receive the benefits

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by brucegdc

Could you be thinking of the Mormon (LDS) practice of baptizing (and doing other sacraments) one's ancestors once you've gone through it for yourself? Not so much taking on the sin yourself, but taking the sacraments on behalf of them, thus enabling them to receive the benefits

could be Mormon or least part of it coming from that so I will look into it. I remember them eating the food as part of the ritual (but not like communion) & I could have something wrong in what I remember about it. I just know it came across kind of twisted to me, because of the dead family member. It may go way back into some kind of Indian or African tribe too. Thanks Bruce

[dailogue is the best]

hi, brother bandit,

thank you for the information, but does not it sound like the original sin? according to the New Testament, as a result of Adam's mistake, people are born with a hreditary sin they are not responsible of.

with my best wishes

[dattaswami]

DIVINE DISCOUSE BY DATTA SWAMI

Q) What is the speciality of Lord Datta? Who is the best devotee of Lord Datta?



Ans.) Generally we do some service to the Lord and expect something good in return from the Lord. This is the norm of the general worldly business. The speciality of Lord Datta is that He announces His policy in the beginning itself. His policy is one way traffic. You have to do service to Him but He will not do any thing good in return. Thus the business completely disappears. At this stage itself majority of the devotees drop out. Some devotees come to Him prepared for doing the service without any good fruit in return. After some time He opens His second policy. This policy is two way traffic but it is different from our two-way traffic. He starts doing bad for our service. As the devotees press His feet He will be beating them with His stick. This is the true love. The devotee must have the divine knowledge to understand Lord Datta. By giving such troubles He is clearing all the sins. In clearing the sins He pays ninety-nine percent and the doer must pay one percent according to the rule of minimum justice. He appears to be giving troubles but actually He is clearing the sins. Then why He is not opening this truth. If the truth is not opened then only the true love exists. In the true love, one loves in spite of troubles from the other side. If the truth is opened this true love disappears. We will realize that these troubles are for his benefit only. Then we will tolerate the troubles from that angle. In such case it cannot be true love. Therefore Lord Datta maintains the secrecy. After clearing the sins, He will give boons. Without curing the fever, strong food should not be given. If it is given the patient dies. The demons were destroyed by such boons. There are three types of devotees. The low-level devotee asks for a boon like a demon. He does not give any freedom to the Lord. He decides that something is good for him and asks the Lord to give it. The devotee acts like a master and is indirectly treating the Lord as his servant. The Master asks the servant to do a particular thing without any comment. The middle class devotees ask the Lord to do whatever is good for them. They give some freedom to the Lord in deciding, which is good and which is bad for them. Upto this point they give freedom to the Lord. After this point the Lord has no freedom and He has to do good only. Thus these devotees give 50 percent freedom to the Lord. The best devotee gives 100 percent freedom to the Lord. He asks the Lord to do whatever the Lord likes. This devotee is prepared to receive the bad also if it can please the Lord. His only aim is that the Lord should be pleased by doing whatever He likes. This devotee feels that he is only an inert means for the play of the Lord by which the Lord is entertained. A player beats the ball by foot and is entertained. The devotee also likes to receive continuous sufferings, if such sufferings can entertain the Lord. When Jesus was doing the last prayer, He tried to avoid the future agony of death. For a moment He was vibrated with the forthcoming agony of crucification. But immediately He regained His originality and ended the prayer by saying “Let Thy will will be done”. He said finally that He is prepared to suffer if that is the will of the Lord. This is the best devotion.

Lord Datta starts giving small troubles, which means that He is clearing the small sins. If the devotee is firm in his faith, then Datta starts clearing big sins. That means the small troubles will be slowly magnified into big troubles. When He clears your pronote of Rs. 100/-, He pays ninety-nine rupees and you will have to pay Re. 1/-. Then He starts clearing your pronote of one thousand rupees and then you have to pay Rs.10/-. You have to pay one percent of your sin according to the least expectation of the Justice. In the first stage Lord Datta keeps silent without doing any good for your service. This is the test of Brahma. This is a sort of initial training for the further tests. Then Datta starts troubling you for your service. The clearance of small sins is the test of Vishnu. In the third stage big sins are cleared and your troubles are intensified. This is the third test of Rudra. From one angle these are the tests to find out the strength of your faith and truthness in your love. In another angle these tests are secret clearance of your sins and your purification to make you eligible for His grace. Only the best devotee can stand before the special Lord Datta. Datta is true God and His preachings are true. The benefit you get also is true. The real Sun can remove the real darkness by his real light and imaginary Sun cannot remove the real darkness. You are spending lot of your time and energy in analyzing these worldly affairs. You are egoistic and you think that you are intelligent to solve the worldly affairs. By your intelligence and intensified analysis through long discussions, you will find that the worldly affair about which, you have taken so much care utterly flops at the end. If you spend even one-tenth of that time and that energy in the service and devotion on Lord Datta, your worldly issue succeeds beyond your imagination. In fact the servants of Lord Datta attend your worldly affairs. These worldly matters are below His level. His level of work starts when you go to the hell after the death. He will speak to Lord of the hell not to enquire about you and close the file since you are in His service. Thus you are blessed in this world and also in the upper world. Your faith is not 100 percent. To practice this if you are in His constant devotion all your duties will be also discharged by the power of Lord Datta in a fraction of second and in an excellent manner. One can test this concept in the case of one worldly affair and see whether what I say is correct or not? You can test this in one case and you will experience the truth of My preachings.

ANIL ANTONY

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by dattaswami

Lord Datta starts giving small troubles, which means that He is clearing the small sins. If the devotee is firm in his faith, then Datta starts clearing big sins. That means the small troubles will be slowly magnified into big troubles. When He clears your pronote of Rs. 100/-, He pays ninety-nine rupees and you will have to pay Re. 1/-. Then He starts clearing your pronote of one thousand rupees and then you have to pay Rs.10/-. You have to pay one percent of your sin according to the least expectation of the Justice. In the first stage Lord Datta keeps silent without doing any good for your service. This is the test of Brahma. This is a sort of initial training for the further tests. Then Datta starts troubling you for your service. The clearance of small sins is the test of Vishnu. In the third stage big sins are cleared and your troubles are intensified. This is the third test of Rudra. From one angle these are the tests to find out the strength of your faith and truthness in your love. In another angle these tests are secret clearance of your sins and your purification to make you eligible for His [color=blue]grace.

But if you know ahead of time that the tests are clearing you of your sins, you welcome the tests and so you are back to square one...asking for what you want. And you are still trying to earn your way to some kind of better afterlife.

Grace by definition comes without strings.

my 2c

peace,
lunamoth

[InLove]

Hear, hear, Luna!

Bandit--I don't know if there is any connection here, but I have heard that in some traditions, descendents of people who have died actually are baptized on behalf of the deceased. Please, someone, correct me if I am wrong, but I was told that this was a Morman practice.

The two practices seemed to go together, somehow, so I thought I would throw this out there and see what comes back.

InPeace,
InLove

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Bandit

I dont know where to put this because I dont know what it is called or what religion teaches this. So I am starting here & maybe someone can help.

There is a belief in imputing/transfering sin from one person to another. What I am speaking of, is when a father passes away, one of the sons attends the funeral and goes through this long ceremony with food & fruit set out on a table, where the sins of his father are believed to be imputed onto the son. They keep doing this and after so many generations, the sins are removed.

I also think the son eats some of the food during this ceremony.

One of the races in Star Trek believes in this & I also saw an old black & white movie years ago where this imputation of sin was believed in.

Does anyone know what religion teaches this or where it started?

SIN-EATER, a man who for trifling payment was believed to take upon himself, by means of food and drink, the sins of a deceased person. The custom was once common in many parts of England and in the highlands of Scotland, and survived until recent years in Wales and the counties of Shropshire and Herefordshire. Usually each village had its official sin-eater to whom notice was given as soon as a death occurred. He then went to the house, and he sat down in front of the door. A groat, a crust of bread and a bowl of ale were handed him, and after he had eaten and drank he rose and pronounced the ease and rest of the dead person, for whom he thus pawned his own soul. The earlier form seems to have been more realistic, the sin-eater being taken into the death-chamber, and, a piece of bread and possibly cheese having been placed on the breast of the corpse by a relative, the sin-eater, would eat this in the presence of the dead.

The Sin Eater usually lived at the edge of the village, and children were warned to stay away from him. He was loathed by the townfolk, but considered an absolute necessity at the same time.

Is this what you were thinking about Bandit?

v/r

Q

[earl]

Q, there is a somewhat similar practice in vajrayana buddhism termed Chod. These practitioners offer their bodies up to be "symbolically" eaten by a variety of negative "spirits" in a compassionate act which seeks the release of all afflicted. So, they in a sense likewise take on the "sins" of another though they're the "eaten" as opposed to the "eater." These are the folks that like to meditate in charnel grounds! In a less dramatic way, there is the common tonglen meditative forms of vajrayana buddhism as well whereby the meditator symbolically breathes in the suffering of another while breathing out well wishes for the afflicted. I'd take that over charnel grounds anyday, Earl