tradgedy of the greek religion

[Postmaster]

They were myths and they say that there is truth to all myths, it might well be that they were based on real people. They used to appear in dreams, miracles occur from them, in visions ect. Something that Sacredstar pointed out to me that Apollo and the image of Buddha are the same.

Apollon



Buddha

The Greek Gods as you know are older then Buddhism and this connection has been noted in the past between Buddha and Apollo the God of Sun, maybe they used the image of apollo for Buddha, or maybe it is something more that we are unaware of? Why not use the image of Buddha himself?. Also does anyone remember the Hindu milk miracle that happened? I was only a young lad when it hit the news all over the world



http://www.mcn.org/1/Miracles/mmiracle.html



There religion is one of the oldest in the world and also based on multi Gods.

[mahogan]

My understanding is that there were a number of earthquakes in the Mediterranean around 1400 to 1200 BCE and it was these that destroyed Knossos and other towns (I always conflate this with the myth of Atlantis because some of the Islands lost whole towns into the sea), plus there was the Sea People who seemed to have attacked from Greece to Crete to Egypt (Sandras, N K, Sea People, Thames, 1972 is the only book I know about them).

The Minoans were mainland Greeks who traded with Crete and Cyprus prior to Troy but the whole lot seems to have gone pear shaped at about the same time. the Iliad and Odessy became oral stories over the 1200 - 900 BCE period, while the Greeks had internal wars etc and formed a new social structure.

It was this structure that led to the Classical Age.

I'm working on a thesis at the moment that the Minoans and Egyptians were both advanced societies and shared a common 'world view'. These cultures, I believe, have a direct lineage to the Neolithic period.

By the end of the Dark Age (800 BCE), the Greeks had come up with some very new and off the wall ideas about what God was/ were and what they did or didn't do for man. These ideas destroyed the earlier myths and replaced them with myths centred around the human experience as human. This 'religion' can only be traced back to the Dark Age.

Originally Posted by Postmaster

The Mycenaean's, actually destroyed Minoan civilisation, they invaded there lands and establish there own culture, historians are unsure if the Mycenaean's were once from the same origin as the Minoan's that split? Many things I'm unsure of in regards to this, would be thankful if you can tell me The earliest Minoan civilisations were found in Create and Cyprus, the Minoan civilisations were extremely ahead of there time in fact if you go to Crete you can see Minoan buildings and paintings of culture, including boxing matches. Do you think that the Minoans were ancestors of the Neolithic people? Because 7000 year old Neolithic civilisations have been found in Cyprus too which are very advanced and sophisticated, which means they must have developed much earlier.

[mahogan]

I'm not convinced of the similarity of the images posted. They have eyes but one sees,the other does not. They have hair, one hangs loose, the other does not, the noses are elongated, wich is a Indo-European trait. The Greek face is thin, the Buddha is not.

There was a significant Geek influence under Alexander (evidenced by images on coins) but this died with Alexander.

It is also worth noting that the Buddha is in a human form but the iconising of ordinary humans was confined to the Greek and Roman sphere and not adopted by other cultures unless directly under Greco-Roman dominance.

Can't Buddhist traditions be traced back into Hindu and Sanskrit literature and there are clearly identifiable links with China? This long predates the Greeks.

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[quote=Postmaster]They were myths and they say that there is truth to all myths, it might well be that they were based on real people. They used to appear in dreams, miracles occur from them, in visions ect. Something that Sacredstar pointed out to me that Apollo and the image of Buddha are the same.

The Greek Gods as you know are older then Buddhism and this connection has been noted in the past between Buddha and Apollo the God of Sun, maybe they used the image of apollo for Buddha, or maybe it is something more that we are unaware of? Why not use the image of Buddha himself?. Also does anyone remember the Hindu milk miracle that happened? I was only a young lad when it hit the news all over the world

[Postmaster]

I'm not convinced of the similarity of the images posted. They have eyes but one sees,the other does not. They have hair, one hangs loose, the other does not, the noses are elongated, wich is a Indo-European trait. The Greek face is thin, the Buddha is not.

There was a significant Geek influence under Alexander (evidenced by images on coins) but this died with Alexander.

It is also worth noting that the Buddha is in a human form but the iconising of ordinary humans was confined to the Greek and Roman sphere and not adopted by other cultures unless directly under Greco-Roman dominance.

Can't Buddhist traditions be traced back into Hindu and Sanskrit literature and there are clearly identifiable links with China? This long predates the Greeks.

I agree with you on this... I've seen other images of closer similarities they just happen to be all I can find on Google images. But they may have took off the Greeks because of there influence, since there are also many images of Buddha. However for them to have took the image of Apollon, there might be some connection in the meaning of that God to Buddha and something more sincere and some sort of connection, Buddha was the enlightened one, the meaning behind Apollon has great similarities... A lot pointed out by scaredstar to me.

[Sacredstar]

For those that are interested theologian Martin Palmer in the Jesus Sutra's includes information of the Indo-Greeks and how those that took on Buddhism used pictures of Apollo to represent him because they did not know what Buddha looked like.

I raised this because on a Reiki with Quan Yin healing course two elderly ladies that had never seen a spirit before, both saw Apollo and described exactly the same picture. (I should add I had never seen Apollo either and knew not what he looked like)

That same I day I had purchased a copy of the Jesus Sutra's and blow we down when I got home the picture that they had described was exactly the same as Apollo in Jesus Sutra's and Palmer explains the importance of the Apollo and Buddha connection. Also interesting that Apollo is considered to be a GOD of healing and Buddha was also called the Medicine Buddha!

So it left me with these questions why would Buddha/Quan Yin (who I consider the female version of Buddha) appear as Apollo if there wasn't a very strong connection between them.

It was a bizarre experience especially when I took the book in on the second day and showed the ladies exactly what they had described the day before.

Mysteries of mysteries......

Then yesterday I found a link written by a lawyer about Apollo that emanates the intellectualism in simple form of the mindset of Buddhism in my view and intuition.

Blessings in abundance


Kim xx

[Sacredstar]

PS I could accept that Buddha may have been an incarnation of Apollo for I am open to all eventualities and realities.

[mahogan]

Soomething else occurred to me about the two images posted.

Chrolologically, they are in the right order but the Greek image dates from the pre-Classical period and is used as an example of how the Greeks were starting to change their statues and art.

Dating from around 700/600 BCE, it has a hairstyle reminiscent of the Persian style (the style also appears in Egyptian art), while its stance and features have similarities with the Cretan and Egyptian styles. In fact, this is an example of what the Greeks were leaving behind.

Alexander reached India in the 4thcentury BCE (300 years after the statue was made), when Greek art was radically different. This Greek influence can be clearly identified in Indian coinage, where the human head suddenly appears, then disappears (when the Greeks leave). (see Boardmans book on British Museums coins and seals).

So the Buddha in fact shows influences of a much earlier Greek art but this Greek art in turn shows influences from the East and from the cultures of the Homeric legends, which the Greeks rejected. In turn, these earlier influences had been passed along the 'Silk Trade Route', as we call it now. This route is very old and product from Afghanistan was in Egypt 4 000 BCE.

I hope this sufficiently clouds the answer to the question of who influenced who in the art world. I see it as a mix but identifying which arts influenced which goups is difficult and dating must be carried out very carefully.

One last point: Greek imigary was not confined to the gods but crossed into the human real, whereas Buddha was deified/ spiritual and the imigary was not used for ordinary people. Thus, even if there was a cross-over of style, the meaning of the imigary was very different.

[mahogan]

Sorry to hog, I enclose a quote from Sacredstar. Whilst the people concerned might not have seen the statue in connection with Apollo, the fact that it is readily available on the internet and in a fair number of books dealing with Greek art means that, if they have ever seen an statues of Greek origin, this or similar might well have been included. Hippocrates was Greek, so the link with medicine is well established for the westerner.

Remember too that the Greek Gods were somewhat 'mobile', their roles and duties varied with time and requirements.

Originally Posted by Sacredstar

I raised this because on a Reiki with Quan Yin healing course two elderly ladies that had never seen a spirit before, both saw Apollo and described exactly the same picture. (I should add I had never seen Apollo either and knew not what he looked like)

That same I day I had purchased a copy of the Jesus Sutra's and blow we down when I got home the picture that they had described was exactly the same as Apollo in Jesus Sutra's and Palmer explains the importance of the Apollo and Buddha connection. Also interesting that Apollo is considered to be a GOD of healing and Buddha was also called the Medicine Buddha!

Kim xx

[Therapon]

Originally Posted by kpreisig

Does anyone else think that the destruction of Greek Mythology by Religion is a tradgedy?

On that topic, I need information. Was there a specific time when Greeks began to learn about Science that prooved their beliefs wrong? When did this happen? Was it gradual? Did it first happen in a specifid place? How did this all happen?

If anyone knows of any books that have any information on the intrusion of Science in Greek Mythology, PLEASE let me know.

I am beginning to write a screen play about Greek Mythology, and if possibly I would LOVE it to depict the end of Mythological Beliefs in Greece, and how and why this happened.

Any snipit of information will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks to all!

Kharete

An interesting post as are some of the replies. I feel I should let you know, as far as the present day devotees of Hellenismos are concerned, reports of the demise of Classical Paganism are greatly exaggerated!

Imperial decrees and ecclesiastical censures provide accounts of survivals of Paganism in Greece from the closure of the academy up until just before the renaiscance

Classical Paganism was revived during the renaiscance due to the work of Plethon.

After the closure of the Academy, the official end of Paganism as a public religion, some of the philosophers went to Harran where the tradition survived until the middle ages to be reintroduced by the crusaders who rediscovered it.

There are groups in Greece who claim an unbroken continuity with ancient practices.

Also the philosophical traditions especially Neoplatonism have survived.

Continuity is also found in the surviving Indo-Greek colinies in the East such as the Kalash who still worship the Gods of Olympus in particular Dionysus who they consider their ancestor.

IMHO What actually happened that was the beliefs of the common people were reinterpreted by the philosophers. the literalistic polytheism which some especially Plato insisted was a misunderstanding of mythology was gradually transformed into a Mystical Monism.
This philosophical tradition which eventually became the underlying philosophy of Classical Paganism was at the same time becoming more and more mystical and intellectual. The tradfitional practices became a part of folk culture as well as becoming assimilated by newer religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam among others. The religion has survived in some significant forms and has witnessed some new flowerings in some forms of Wicca and Druidry as well as Hellenic Reconstructionism.

The Greek authorities have only recently decriminalised the worship of the Gods of Olympus in a legal ruling.



I'm happy to provide links to the groups mentioned above.

[I, Brian]

Hi Therapon, and welcome to Cr.

[Therapon]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Hi Therapon, and welcome to Cr.

Hey!

[Eudaimonist]

Originally Posted by Therapon

Also the philosophical traditions especially Neoplatonism have survived.

I remember reading somewhere that Epicureanism survived as well. Do you have any knowledge about that?


eudaimonia,

Mark

[Therapon]

Originally Posted by Eudaimonist

I remember reading somewhere that Epicureanism survived as well. Do you have any knowledge about that?

No I haven't, it would be interesting to find out about if you can remember where you read it. I know there are also Stoic groups around but I'm not sure if these are recent reconstructions, revivals or a survival of the philosophy?

It's easier with Neoplatonism as there is much more written and at the close of antiquity they actually made a determined effort to write down every essential part of the philosophy, so that nothing was left out for future generations. Also Neoplatonism found some accceptance within mainline religions and the friction between them helped keep the school survive as an independent tradition.