Touchy touchy...

[17th Angel]

I was watching something over the weekend, I cannot really recall what it was heh.... But, on arrival to a new neighbourhood this family invited around their new neighbours, and most of them were Jews.... Few things I didn't agree with, (apart from them not being at all welcoming, but obviously that doesn't say on a whole about a certain group of people.) The girl of the family when to shake this old guys hand and he flips out and says in a tantrum "I am a rabbi!" And walks off... I mean, what the hell? Why not explain why he was upset over such a common greeting of humans. She then talked to the only Jew there that was willing to actually explain everything to her, saying that a Jew cannot touch any woman but his wife.... (so to my point) Is that true? What about your sister or mother or Daughter? It's not like your slapping her on the behind it's just a handshake.... ;/

Also on the show "Kosher" that means animals are prepared correctly, cooked, slaughtered correctly right? So... How can cookies not be kosher?

[bananabrain]

what was the programme?

Few things I didn't agree with, (apart from them not being at all welcoming, but obviously that doesn't say on a whole about a certain group of people.)

well, if they were ultra-orthodox, they don't really like mixing with or interacting with non-jews in the first place, not unlike other sorts of fundamentalists, so i wouldn't think that's anything particularly jewish, it's just something about being in an uncomfortable situation. where was this and how were they dressed?

The girl of the family when to shake this old guys hand and he flips out and says in a tantrum "I am a rabbi!" And walks off... I mean, what the hell?

ok - if you're a strictly observant man, you don't touch anyone of the opposite sex outside your immediate family, ie your mother, your wife or your children. and you don't touch your wife during her period or during seven days afterwards following which she goes to a mikveh (ritual bath) after which normal human contact can resume. during the separation period you can't even pass things to each other let alone sleep in the same bed. it's very strict.

obviously it is therefore out of the question to be kissing, touching or even shaking hands with other women than one's wife or mother. i'm not all that strict about this myself (so i'll kiss or hug women friends hello) although my wife and i do observe the time limits and refrain from touching during relevant periods.

basically, it might feel a bit weird, but basically, for this guy, he wouldn't distinguish between a woman grabbing his hand or grabbing his nadgers, if that makes any sense - so, actually, it is like slapping on the behind; it's just a matter of degree. with that said, he sounds like an idiot. firstly, there is no special prohibition on rabbis touching - i'm just as prohibited as he is. secondly, it is perfectly possible to explain things clearly and understandably without getting annoyed. and most people i know even if you shake hands in error would rather ignore it and explain for future occasions than embarrass the other person - embarrassing someone in public is actually as bad as murder in jewish law, because you're murdering their public persona, as it were. so this chap is obviously rather rude, although if this was all on camera, it would probably be even less comfortable for him.

Also on the show "Kosher" that means animals are prepared correctly, cooked, slaughtered correctly right? So... How can cookies not be kosher?

basically, it's not just about slaughter, it's about ingredients. so for cookies, for example, a lot of e-numbers and additives (to say nothing of common ingredients such as gelatine or rennet) contain animal products, which would have to be from correctly slaughtered kosher animals. then the animal products would have to be separate from any dairy products. similarly the product would have to be supervised by a kashrut expert to ensure that at no point non-kosher products could enter it, say, at the factory. then there's the matter of plates. if your kitchen isn't kosher, then your plates have previously had all sorts of non-kosher food on and that too is not permitted. with that said, the easiest thing to do is ask in advance. if someone's a real maniac fundie, they'll probably not even want to go in your house (in case you invite them to an orgy or make them watch TV, presumably) but supervised products on disposable plates would be fine. everyone has their own level that they take this to, though - my parents don't keep a kosher kitchen, although they don't have pork or shellfish in the house, but i will eat at theirs (or at my friends) because i trust them to respect me enough to not feed me something i would object to. at the end of the day there is no substitute for politeness and education. to me, however, this whole situation sounds a bit suspicious, as if it were manufactured by the producers to make better TV - if they knew such a situation might arise, they ought to have done their research. when i invite someone to my house, i check their dietary parameters.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[17th Angel]

Awesome reply, my thanks... Alot of detail there too.. Learn something new every day, cheers. I wouldn't be able to remember all of that lol...

Yeah the rabbi was dressed ol skool... Side burns, hat suite you know..

[bananabrain]

yeah, this sounds more and more like a manufactured bit of outrage to me.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[wil]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Yeah the rabbi was dressed ol skool... Side burns, hat suite you know..

Is that Hassidic BB?

Kosher...I have a freind who won't eat tofu cheese on a soy burger...as it implies breaking the rules...

the murder aspect of murdering a public persona....thou shalt not...my church proscribes to much of that...and we are known as incredibly liberal...

and takes thou shall not commit adultery as not diluting/adulterating principles or beliefs...

You indicated there are ways to explain the tradition and belief without being rude...I find that often the reaction such as described by the Rabbi often as nothing to do with what happenned but what happenned before. Especially on these TV shows we don't know what they put the man through before the handshake...and what ended up on the cutting room floor...could be he was setup to look like the fool....

[dauer]

Wil,

Not always hasidic, haredi. Not all haredim are hasidic. But if you know what you're looking at you can tell affiliation based on the style of clothing, including between diff hasidic groups.

[post-abrahamic]

Why do modern Jews allow these rabbis to act like racists? It surely doesn't do Judaism any good to allow such ancient prejudices to speak for Jews having to live in the modern world where all races are mixed together.

[LeoSalinas22]

Originally Posted by post-abrahamic

Why do modern Jews allow these rabbis to act like racists? It surely doesn't do Judaism any good to allow such ancient prejudices to speak for Jews having to live in the modern world where all races are mixed together.

hey post, do you need a hug, man? you sound really stressed out. if you want to talk, pm me, ok?

[dauer]

PostAvrohomish,

what's racism got to do got to do with it? What's racism but a type of xenophobia?

The first question is serious. The second strangely fit and I don't know why... *blinks*

Dauer

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by wil

You indicated there are ways to explain the tradition and belief without being rude...I find that often the reaction such as described by the Rabbi often as nothing to do with what happenned but what happenned before. Especially on these TV shows we don't know what they put the man through before the handshake...and what ended up on the cutting room floor...could be he was setup to look like the fool....

Maybe, it was Hulk Hogan (ex WWE Superstar Wrestler.) His family had moved in and just invited people around for a BBQ... They really went out of their way to get suitable foods and we're very warm and welcoming (or at least what you see.) But, yeah I guess you could be right. (bits of my memory coming back lol...)

[bananabrain]

Originally Posted by wi

Especially on these TV shows we don't know what they put the man through before the handshake...and what ended up on the cutting room floor...could be he was setup to look like the fool....

from what i know of how these things work, you get to see the story they want to tell. personally, if this was about hulk hogan, i am astonished that an ultra-orthodox family would even know who he was, let alone agree to participate in a reality TV show about him - they undoubtedly don't even own a TV.

Originally Posted by postabrahamic

Why do modern Jews allow these rabbis to act like racists?

leaving apart the fact that it's not about race, but about religion, what exactly do you propose that i do about it? go round their house and lecture them? what makes you think that they would listen to me? i don't even have sidecurls, let alone the right sort of furry hat. they wouldn't listen to me or anyone else; they see the world a particular way and nothing i can say is going to remove their fear (for this is what it really is) and consequent prejudice.

It surely doesn't do Judaism any good to allow such ancient prejudices to speak for Jews having to live in the modern world where all races are mixed together.

well, i'm certainly sure people like that do people like me no favours - but you could say the same thing about west bank settlers, or, say, robert maxwell - but it would be rather prejudiced to say the least for you to consider their behaviour to reflect on mine. or are you the sort of person that holds every muslim responsible for the behaviour of osama bin laden, or every christian to be responsibile for the behaviour of the church of the creator? besides, these particular sects of jews *don't* live in the modern world. they have no interest in it any more than the amish do - and they're certainly not interested in mixing, socially or otherwise. i am astonished that they were even on this show.

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

They really went out of their way to get suitable foods

and in the case of most modern jews that would go a long way towards it, but the ultra-orthodox would simply not understand the point of the gesture, seeing as they couldn't even eat in your house without compromising their own standards of observance. i may not agree with it, but i think what we're talking about here is a manufactured clash for televisual effect - which HH as a former WWF star will know all about.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[17th Angel]

I mean the Hogan family went out of their way to get kosher food lol.... But "hulk" cooked it on a bbq cooker that wasn't put in a ritual bath? And also cooked non kosher food on the same gril with the kosher food heh...

[bananabrain]

oh dear. well, i would appreciate the gesture, but i myself certainly wouldn't eat something that had been cooked on a barbecue next to something that wasn't kosher. it's about the degree of separation that's required. what the hogans presumably fail to realise (and it is hard to see how they could be reasonably be expected to know) is that eating is for us a sacramental act, albeit if you're ultra-orthodox, you won't even drink a glass of water without saying a blessing first and the idea of sitting down and sharing a table with people eating non-kosher food is simply unthinkable. you might as well invite them to start wife-swapping. what they might do, of course is have a beer together providing they opened it themselves - but even then, you fall foul of all the rules which are designed to avoid you getting drunk and "intermarrying". of course the stringencies these guys subject themselves to are rather extreme but i have a feeling the hogans would have had a similar problem if they had had next door neighbours who were animal rights activists, fruitarians or indeed jains. there's not really a way round having a meat-based communal meal with people with really strict dietary requirements.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[17th Angel]

I know, I know it is a faith and way of life, but seems awfully stuck up and arogant... I mean, I open you a can in an act of friendship, and it would feel to me the opener of the can that I am apparently not good enough nor worthy to open a drink for you or even eat with you..... (Just looking into Judaism....) So kind of new at getting the ropes of your faith.

[wil]

A bunch of us goy mix with some regular non kosher jews at a workshop every year.. the place we rent is at an orthodox retreat center...they provide the food and lodging. The Rabbi is very friendly towards us and we are a bunch of crazy variety artists and street performers. They cook great kosher foods and cater to the needs of the vegans and allergin diets more willingly than anyplace I know.

There is always a group of kids leaving as we arrive and coming in as we are leaving.. all orthodox...wall down the classroom etc.

Tradition is valuable, and it is to be expected when someone challenges it to see a challenge head back...

Now that you added the HH aspect of the situation, your OP seems likely response.