Touchy touchy...

[17th Angel]

Op?

[wil]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Op?

OP Original Post

[dauer]

BB,

I think you're generalizing the ultra-orthodox just a tad. Not that they aren't a bit insular and xenophobic, or mostly disinterested in ideas other than their own, but there are also ultra-orthodox Jews who outreach instead of cloister. And then there are still others who are really primarily identified as ultra-orthodox because of their minhagim and espouse more progressive ideas, sometimes taking part in more progressive activities.

And I think there are some in those communities who feel that ultra-orthodoxy is the correct form of Judaism and the other stuff is narishkeit (similar though by no means the same as how you feel about Orthodoxy in general) but also feel that it should more to the left a little more and come to terms with itself and the modern world.

When I did jitw a few years back, there were a couple black hats. They took part in trichetzah davennen and I think one of them was one of the joint baalei tefilah for part of one of the services over the shabaton. So I don't think you can always judge a book by its cover. Or, for another example of a guy who doesn't completely fit your definition and is a bit more visible, there's Yonassan Gershom who originally was very involved with Renewal when it was Bnai Or but left the community as it began to distance itself more from Orthodoxy and became a hasid to Nachman.

The Yonassan Gershom Website

He's got some decent faq's on hasidism and reincarnation in Judaism, info on startrek and judaism, and a couple essays about what he liked in renewal that are more critical of its current manifestation. His is one of the better analyses of the kabbalaistic symbology of the b'nai or (rainbow) tallis.

Granted, some of the folks who do outreach stuff can be just as xenophobic, insular, and judgemental of the modern world as the ones who cloister. I've had my fair share of negative experiences with chabadniks and more out-there-in-the-world yeshivish types.

Dauer

[bananabrain]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

know, I know it is a faith and way of life, but seems awfully stuck up and arrogant...

oh, i agree. that's certainly how it comes across if you don't know what you're dealing with. and even then, there is plenty of room within the system to act with derech eretz (common courtesy) for the purposes of kiddush haShem (sanctification of the Divine Name through being seen to act in an ethical and moral fashion). unfortunately this tends to take a back seat to people's knee-jerk reactions and this, like i said before, is because people are terribly scared of the modern world which they see as a godless wasteland of depravity which is on some level trying to destroy them. it's something all fundamentalists seem to have in common - can i recommend you a book? karen armstrong's "the battle for G!D", which is a comparative study of fundamentalism in the abrahamic faiths. i can't praise this book enough for all that it contains a certain amount of inaccuracy.

Originally Posted by dauer

I think you're generalizing the ultra-orthodox just a tad. Not that they aren't a bit insular and xenophobic, or mostly disinterested in ideas other than their own, but there are also ultra-orthodox Jews who outreach instead of cloister.

oh, i know, but in my experience it is a rare haredi who sees any value in any other way of doing judaism, let alone anything non-jewish. i get on with them, but i have to take them with a pinch of salt and i will object when i hear something i disagree with.

And then there are still others who are really primarily identified as ultra-orthodox because of their minhagim and espouse more progressive ideas, sometimes taking part in more progressive activities.

well, perhaps, but they are really the exception rather than the rule. it's like reform jews who can get to grips with a talmudic sugiyah, a rare but welcome surprise.

And I think there are some in those communities who feel that ultra-orthodoxy is the correct form of Judaism and the other stuff is narishkeit (similar though by no means the same as how you feel about Orthodoxy in general) but also feel that it should more to the left a little more and come to terms with itself and the modern world.

harrumph. i don't feel that non-orthodox stuff is narishkeit. i feel it has a lot to teach orthodoxy about social justice and ethics in particular. in the same way that orthodox people go on self-servingly about "Torah judaism", i would like non-orthodox people to fly the flag for "NaKh judaism" - in my religious biodiversity model (which i consider inspired by rav kook) but without feeling that they have to diss the traditionalists; the reverse of course goes without saying. broadly speaking, the ultra-orthodox world looks to the yeshiva world as an ideal and, frankly, i believe this to be a terrible failure of vision. as for the outreach lot, they are, to a man, closet xenophobes in thrall to this monochrome, monotonous pilpul factory whilst paying lip service to the people who are needed to support their lack of engagement with the world. and i would have a lot more time for chasidim (especially chabad) if they didn't subscribe to the soul-structure theology of the baal ha-tanya, of which i cordially disapprove, despite my admiration for the rest of his work. put it this way - i don't judge books by their cover, but i find everyone else seems to and, frankly, i am rarely surprised, which saddens me.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[dauer]

harrumph. i don't feel that non-orthodox stuff is narishkeit.

I didn't mean to imply that you do, which is why I said similar though by no means the same. I considered it might strike you the wrong way to add that clause but saw the stimulation of discussion around the matter as something not worth avoiding.

I remember you once saying (and forgive me if I've confused you for someone else) that non-orthodox forms of Judaism are Jewish religion but not Judaism or something similar to that to suggest that while it may be the religious of practices of certain groups of Jewish people it's a rejection of many of the fundamentals of Judaism. Would you say that you feel that Orthodoxy as it exists today (and by that I mean each of the major manifestations of Orthodoxy individually) is as incorrect as the liberal movements?

Dauer

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

there is plenty of room within the system to act with derech eretz (common courtesy)

That is what I thought....

Originally Posted by bananabrain

can i recommend you a book? karen armstrong's "the battle for G!D", which is a comparative study of fundamentalism in the abrahamic faiths. i can't praise this book enough for all that it contains a certain amount of inaccuracy.

Shall look into it.