Torah/Talmud:Evangel/Commentary:Qur'an/Hadith

[Popeyesays]

I think a discussion of the Qur'an and Hadith leads to a discussion of the relations ship of Message and Commentary in the Judaeo/Christian/Islamic religions. Each takes a very different tack in juxtaposing sacred text and oral (epistilic) commentary.

The Talmud was compiled to provide a "fence around the Torah". The Talmud adds laws to protect Jews from violating the law of the Torah. A good example of this is the Torah law against "eating beef cooked in the milk of it mother". This law would seem to be very specific against eating veal under a particular condition of cooking. The Talmud establishes a law against eating dairy food and meat at the same meal. This builds a fence around the law of the Torah on this subject, i.e. one cannot violate the law of the Torah if one follows the more general law of the Talmud even by accident.

In the New Testament of the Christian bible There are two main sections - the Gospel and Acts, and the Commentary or Epistles. Fate conspired to put these in the same "volume". This is in juxtaposition of the Torah and Talmud relationship, and has probably led to some problems in Christianity over the years. One cannot easily compare and contrast the commentary with the words of Jesus since it is all one sacred book.

In Islam we have the Qur'an and the Hadiths. The Hadiths are stories about what the Prophet said or did under certain circumstances. In order to be included in the hadiths a story had to have more than one witness of repute.
The Prophet says in several places that the Qur'an is complete in itself and needs no hadith, this leads to some confusion in Islam as well.

This is all in my opinion and viewpoint, of course, and I welcome comment. I thought this might be the best place for the discussion, though I was sorely tempted to take it to the Hadith thread in the Islamic board.

Any comment?

Regards,
Scott

[dauer]

popeyesays, it doesn't sound like you know much about the Talmud. Building a fence around the Torah is merely one halachic technique. To say that it is for this reason that the Talmud was created is simply ignorant. I don't mean that in a mean way, but I do mean to say that you are speaking from a place of lacking much information. What was the historic situation at the time of the creation of the mishna? Of the gemara? Who were the people writing the Talmud? Who was it being written for? Why does Judaism itself say the Talmud was written (not that I think this is the reason but I don't think it can be ignored either)? What role does the aggadah, or non-legal literature play within the Talmud? What is the relationship between the mishna and the gemara? What is the relationship between the mishna and the Tanach? In what ways does the Talmud itself respond to contemporary issues like the destruction of the beit hamikdash, moshiach, loss of the land, authority, God, the diaspora, etc?

In my opinion, we cannot speak of why the Talmud was compiled. We can speak of why the mishna was compiled, and why the gemara was compiled. And I don't think they're simple answers, having many factors leading to their compilations, from the political to the ideological to the pragmatic to the theological. I'm not prepared to do more than raise questions right now.

Dauer

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by dauer

popeyesays, it doesn't sound like you know much about the Talmud. Building a fence around the Torah is merely one halachic technique. To say that it is for this reason that the Talmud was created is simply ignorant. Dauer

I wasn't tryin to say it was the ONLY reason. I was trying to look at a similar thing in Judaism, Christianity and Islam and see how the tradition was handled in all three. I appreciate your comment very much, and I have a lot to learn about all three faiths and my own as well = a lifetime is not long enough.

Regards,
Scott

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

In the New Testament of the Christian bible There are two main sections - the Gospel and Acts, and the Commentary or Epistles. Fate conspired to put these in the same "volume".

the christian bible is, of course, the old and new testament, and the old contains many prophecies which are all fulfilled almost word for word in the new testament, not only that but is eyewitnessed by many people. fate caused them to be put in both to either see the truth or stumble on it.

..and i am learning alot about other religions as well.

[Yaqinud Din]

You must follow the Holy Quran but you must also follow the Prophet (pbuh)

“Say (O Muhammad): “Obey Allaah and the Messenger (Muhammad).” But if they turn away, then Allaah does not like the disbelievers” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:32]


“He who obeys the Messenger (Muhammad), has indeed obeyed Allaah, but he who turns away, then we have not sent you (O Muhammad) as a watcher over them” [al-Nisa’ 4:80]


“O you who believe! Obey Allaah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allaah and His Messenger, if you believe in Allaah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination” [al-Nisa’ 4:59)


“And perform As‑Salaah (Iqaamat‑as-Salaah), and give Zakaah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad) that you may receive mercy (from Allaah)” [al-Noor 24:56]


It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allaah and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allaah and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed into a plain error” [al-Ahzaab 33:36]

“
And let those who oppose the Messenger’s (Muhammad’s) commandment (i.e. his Sunnah legal ways, orders, acts of worship, statements) (among the sects) beware, lest some Fitnah (disbelief, trials, afflictions, earthquakes, killing, overpowered by a tyrant) should befall them or a painful torment be inflicted on them” [al-Noor 24:63]

Hadith was wrote down in the time of the Prophet (pbuh)

Prophet of Allah (sallallaho alaihi wasallam) said to Abdullah bin Amr (radiallah tala anho): Write ahaadeeth, I swear by Him who holds my life in His hand, from this mouth nothing but the truth comes out. [Abu Dawood, volume 1, pg 158: Isnaad is Saheeh]

Prophet (sallallaho alaihi wasallam) said: Write this hadeeth and give it to Abu shah (radiallah tala anho).... [Sahih Bukhari & Sahih Muslim]

Ali (radiallah tala anho) says: We don't have anything but Kitab Allah and the scriptures in which are ahaadeeth of prophet of Allah (sallallaho alaihi wasallam). [Sahih Bukhari & Sahih Muslim]

Abu Huraira (radiallah tala anho) says: Amongst the Sahabah (radiallah tala anhum) no one narrates ahaadeeth more than I do save Abdullah bin Amr (radiallah tala anho), because he used to write them and I didn't. [Sahih Bukhari]

But I know some will disagree



[Admin edit by I, Brian - reduced font size to respectable levels ]

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

In the New Testament of the Christian bible There are two main sections - the Gospel and Acts, and the Commentary or Epistles. Fate conspired to put these in the same "volume". This is in juxtaposition of the Torah and Talmud relationship, and has probably led to some problems in Christianity over the years. One cannot easily compare and contrast the commentary with the words of Jesus since it is all one sacred book.

One of the questions one must ask is, what is the religion's concept of God's Word? There is a difference between the Word of God and Scripture.

In the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

In Christianity, God is the Word Itself. This ultimately raises the question, "is the Bible the Word of God?" We know the Bible itself is not God, so to say that God is the Word and at the same time say that the Bible itself is the Word would be a contradiction.

The Gospel of John also portrays the Word as a living person. The reason is obvious: the Word is God Himself.

So what's the Bible then?

The Bible contains the Secret about God, His Word and His Kingdom, thereby leading us to God. In other words, the Bible is about God and our spiritual journey to Him and His Kingdom.

The Bible is more like a commentary about God Himself, who is also the Word Itself.

From this we can note some differences between Islam and Christianity. In Islam, the Word is the Quran. In Christianity, the Word is God. The Hadiths are the commentary on the Quran and the Bible is a commentary on God.

However, the Bible is not a commentary on the same level as the Hadiths. The Bible as a commentary is considered more authoritative and authentic than the Hadiths because it leads us to the Secret about God and His Kingdom. The Bible's authority and authenticiy as a commentary is considered to be on the same level as the Quran as the "Word of God."

Just because you have a commentary doesn't mean it doesn't carry authority.

If the Bible leads us to God, and God is His own Word, then that leads us to the question of whether or not God is knowable. All three Abrahamic faiths -- Judaism, Christianity and Islam teach God is to some degree unknowable. As far as I know in Islam, God is practically unknowable. In Christianity, God is considered a Secret that can be discovered.

This is probably the reason why the sacred and the commentary are mixed in the Christian New Testament -- the commentary is considered sacred because it contains the most important thing of all -- it contains the Secret about God, the meaning of life and the cosmos.

This could also explain the differences in our views about our Scriptures. With Christianity, it would explain why we believe that our Bible carries authority even though it's a commentary -- we believe there's a Secret inside if you care to look.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

One of the questions one must ask is, what is the religion's concept of God's Word? There is a difference between the Word of God and Scripture.



In Christianity, God is the Word Itself. This ultimately raises the question, "is the Bible the Word of God?" We know the Bible itself is not God, so to say that God is the Word and at the same time say that the Bible itself is the Word would be a contradiction.

The Gospel of John also portrays the Word as a living person. The reason is obvious: the Word is God Himself.

So what's the Bible then?

The Bible contains the Secret about God, His Word and His Kingdom, thereby leading us to God. In other words, the Bible is about God and our spiritual journey to Him and His Kingdom.

The Bible is more like a commentary about God Himself, who is also the Word Itself.

From this we can note some differences between Islam and Christianity. In Islam, the Word is the Quran. In Christianity, the Word is God. The Hadiths are the commentary on the Quran and the Bible is a commentary on God.

However, the Bible is not a commentary on the same level as the Hadiths. The Bible as a commentary is considered more authoritative and authentic than the Hadiths because it leads us to the Secret about God and His Kingdom. The Bible's authority and authenticiy as a commentary is considered to be on the same level as the Quran as the "Word of God."

Just because you have a commentary doesn't mean it doesn't carry authority.

If the Bible leads us to God, and God is His own Word, then that leads us to the question of whether or not God is knowable. All three Abrahamic faiths -- Judaism, Christianity and Islam teach God is to some degree unknowable. As far as I know in Islam, God is practically unknowable. In Christianity, God is considered a Secret that can be discovered.

This is probably the reason why the sacred and the commentary are mixed in the Christian New Testament -- the commentary is considered sacred because it contains the most important thing of all -- it contains the Secret about God, the meaning of life and the cosmos.

This could also explain the differences in our views about our Scriptures. With Christianity, it would explain why we believe that our Bible carries authority even though it's a commentary -- we believe there's a Secret inside if you care to look.

I agree to an extent. Jesus was the pinnacle of Creation and the embodiment of the Word of God. I see it this way: The Manifestation of God is the embodiment of Creation, the Impulse of the Creative WORD of God made flesh.
So, what was the WORD? In my estimation it was the command that initiated Creation: BE! Jesus was that Word made flesh . . . but, so also was Abraham, Moses, Muhammed, Zoroaster, Buddha, Salih, Hud, the Bab and Baha`u'llah . . . which is probably where we disagree.

But the BOOk each brings is also the WORD or guidance of God. The book may be spoken or written. but the book is subsidiary to the Manifestation, and at best a pale reflection of the majesty of the Word Made Flesh.

So, how does this relate to the idea I posed, how does the Gospel relate to commentary? or the Qur'an relate to hadith, or the TOrah to the Talmud?

Regards,
Scott