Thoughts

[Thomas]

Hi Christine -

Just a short note to say I might have perhaps appeared somewhat dogmatic in the above post, and thus a bit heavy-handed.

My principle view is that we are the sum of all our parts (which I missplet 'sun', but then there is some truth in that!) - so I always seeks to unify where I see a tendency to separation - and I do so by recourse to a unifying principle.

Aristotle said 'the soul is all that it knows', Aquinas showed the soul is all that it knows, but it is more than it knows because it exists by the will of God - which is 'self evident' when the soul acknowledges it is not the cause of its own existence.

This is the key to The Chariot in the Tarot, in that the charioteer must manage and lead his team of horses, not let the horses go where they will or, worse, bolt with him a helpless passenger!

The cry of the charioteer is 'make straight the way of the Lord!' - And the way opens up when all the horses, or 'vehicles', are heading in the same direction - but the charioteer must never forget that the road was there before him, and is for him to discover.

The story of Prometheus (Greek for 'forethought' but fallen to become 'ego') is of the charioteer who decides he will blaze his own way across the heavens.

Prometheus stole the fire of the gods - lucifer is the 'light-bearer' and the most beautiful of all the angels - other Scriptural links can be traced through Eve/Pandora, the angels/Titans who 'walked with the daughters of men' (and who fathered Prometheus); Loki too, the Norse 'trickster of the gods' was also the son of a giant ...

Oh, here I go again...

Thomas

[RubySera_Martin]

I am really puzzled what this thread is all about. I have been tracing my thoughts for about four decades. The reason? My mother was always asking: Where did you get that idea? I thought she was genuinely interested, so I learned to backtrack my ideas in order to answer her questions. I found out she wasn't terribly interested in the origins of my ideas so much as she wanted to shut me up.

I am quite sure that thoughts and feelings are always stimulated by some other factor in life. Thoughts and feelings are part of human behaviour. There is word association, and other kinds of associations, that stimulate many new ideas. Some bright new ideas are just a creative assimilation of existing concepts or blocks of information/knowledge. These blocks of knowledge, of course, include everything we perceive through our various senses and how we put it together.

As we contemplate a concept in all its aspects and depths of meaning, including the actual words and letters of those words in the thought (and perhaps the shapes of those letters and their equivilents in other languages we may know or be familiar with and the sounds in those various languages and everything we have ever heard or read using those words or associated ideas), as we allow word association to take place freely, randomly, and unhindered--the electrical circuits inside the brain make all kinds of connections we never thought of before.

I am often considered to be an extremely creative thinker but never yet have I come up with an original thought. Many thoughts are new for me, but when I become aware of a new idea (a concept I'd never heard or seen before) I always find something similar somewhere in the literature soon thereafter.

Are thoughts entities with their own laws of operation? Naw. I guess they have been visualized as such from time immemorial and perhaps even stories have been written treating thoughts as characters that interact. But they're not. They're just one more function of our marvelous brains.

Lots of times we might hear somebody make the claim: That thought didn't come from me. I couldn't have come up with that kind of thing on my own. It must have come from God.

I doubt it--even though I have made similar claims in my life. Thoughts are not necessarily subject to the will. I believe much thought stimulation occurs beneath the threshhold of consciousness, which may cause the individual to believe the thought came from a source outside the self. But I very seriously doubt that it did. The study of dream and prophecy and symbol shows too many similarities between thoughts, feelings, ideas, and personal wishes, desires, fears, hopes, etc. I cannot believe that any of them come from outside the person except via the senses.

Someone mentioned a mother who is hard of hearing, yet seems to pick up what was said after a few minutes. My grandfather used to be the same way. He would seem not to be aware of the conversation at the table. Then unpredictably he would comment on something that had been said several minutes before. He was liable to miss out on annoncements that affected him and to pick up on conversation not meant for his ears.

Theories were put forward on the operation of various parts of the brain. All of this makes sense to me. And if one figures in Myers-Briggs personality theory (which focuses on the different ways in which we perceive information and how we analyze it after perception), I think this theory is strengthened. If Myers-Briggs theory is correct, and I have no reason to doubt it, then we do not all take in and make sense of information in the same way. A general awareness of what is important to the people around oneself richly underscores this.

Thus in answer to the original post:

Our thoughts... Are they real entities?

Thoughts are real and must be respected as such. Thoughts must be kept enough in line with concrete reality to allow us to live peacefully with others. Because many of them are stimulated beneath the threshhold of consciousness, we may sometimes be shocked by what comes up. But it is up to us to deal with it. There are illnesses in which medical intervention is required to cope. When this is the case, it is wise to consult one's doctor. For the most part, however, thoughts are just electical circuitry swishing around inside of our brains. That is what I think--huh? was there a synapse somewhere???

They have determination and rationality; so, one could say: that they have life…

If my theory is correct that much thought originates beneath the threshhold of consciousness, then it makes sense to assume that thoughts have a life of their own and that they take on the characteristics of rationality and determination. I still believe they are "concocted" by circuitry inside the body in response to information perceived via the senses. But, as already mentioned, if thoughts are out of control it is wise to consult one's doctor. Often the reassurance that "I'm not crazy" is all that is needed. And if indeed I am crazy, then the doctor may be able to give a preseciption that will correct the malady. Being able to live a normal life by swallowing pills on a regular basis is a wonderful blessing.

Could a 'feeling' - or even an imaginary thought - which is 'something'; come out of nothing: or be nothing?

As stated, I doubt it. They just seem to come out of nothing because they "grow" beneath the threshhold of consciousness. Probably not anymore than the taste perception that is stimulated by tastebuds when we eat is "nothing." Those are some of my thoughts on the subject. They just sort of grew as I responded to various ideas associated with the original post.

[christine.P]

Taiwan, I wish I could be sure...but right now I have too many thoughts and no answers, thats where you all come in. So excuse me asking the questions, and sometimes not having the answers.................
Bow...

[Eudaimonist]

Originally Posted by taijasi

Condiser the Daemon of Socrates ... (Mark!)

I have!

I think his daimon is just an aspect of his natural human psychology -- not something external to himself, as a separate "spirit" or super-consciousness -- but of course that's just my personal belief in the matter.


eudaimonia,

Mark

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by christine.P

Taiwan, I wish I could be sure...but right now I have too many thoughts and no answers, thats where you all come in. So excuse me asking the questions, and sometimes not having the answers.................
Bow...

I guess this is addressed to me. Fair enough, it just seemed like you did have the answer to this question.
Thanks anyway for the reply.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by christine.P

Our thoughts... Are they real entities?

They have determination and rationality; so, one could say: that they have life…


Could a 'feeling' - or even an imaginary thought - which is 'something'; come out of nothing: or be nothing?


Your considerations would be appreciated…


Bow…

I can only present this from a perspective I understand (take it for what it is worth to you), Scripture states "As you believe so it shall be". Thoughts are reflections of the entity that produced them. If the thinker is determined and rational, and alive, then yes the thought is an echo of the origins it came from.

Feeling, is an emotional response to something. Neither good nor bad, it just is.

To create an imaginary thought from abstract concepts (or nothing), is a misnomer. Thoughts are contrived from past experiences. There is always a launching point for thought. So, it is always based on "something".

my thoughts

v/r

Q