There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

[Azure24]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

...Say, wasn't Peter a sinner, not doing some things that he should of, or doing some things that he shouldn't? Didn't Jesus say that a person is a slave of their own sins?

You obviously have not read my previous posts...

Originally Posted by cyberpi

There is a future that you can not make, but that God can. What paradox?

How can God make the future if there is free will? This means that doesn't know what we will do...

[quote=cyberpi;137032]...So what chooses...quote]

From now on, I will not repeat myself. I already said we can make choices.

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

How can God make the future if there is free will?

I see this troubles you. How are you able to post and control this thread, if I am too? This thread, is it per your will, per my will, per anyone else's will, or per God's will? Is this thread hopelessly fixed in time, its life and future pre-ordained? I find the answer is, that God has power that you and I do not, and can choose whether or not to use it. Yet not everything that happens in this world is per God's will. I find you have to ask for his will if you want it.

Matthew 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

So, not everything here is per God's will, and yet... it is. Tricky play on words there, isn't it. A matter of whether or not taking no action is still per your will. Some events will be unknown until they happen.

Originally Posted by cyberpi

From now on, I will not repeat myself. I already said we can make choices.

I will repeat what I know others have said: That the choices that can be made are what people call free will.

[LeoSalinas22]

i say,

that when you are sinning, you are outside in the broad path. this is when we have free will. when you rebel, God allows you to have free will, but will still influence someone through events or through the environment to achieve His own ends. He uses events and environment to discipline you. this is not to say that God doesn't still use you for His puposes. again, He allows this to happen for His Name's sake. in the end, He gets the glory anyways.

and when you do God's Will, then your will is taken away. that is when you don't have have free will anymore. when one is on the narrow path. but this is a good thing! being a servant and not doing things on your own. as history shows, we royally scew things up anyways if we try to do things on our own! so leave it to God. He will take care of it. so imo, it is both. we have free will and we don't, depending on which path we are on. yeah, yeah i am probably going to get alot of slack for this since we can't serve two masters, but it makes sense to me. it is both.

sort of like balaam on the donkey and the angel that was in his way. balaam was still going where he wanted to but the angel was trying to get in the way to tell him to get on the right path, but balaam wouldn't listen. the same could be said about God being the Shephard and we being the sheep. if God hides His face from us or doesn't guide us on the right path, chaos happens. at this point we have free will, but that doesn't do us any good does it? but if He guides us, if we do His Will, the situation is just so much better! it is when we have free will, that we mess up. but no free will, well you know the rest. thanks for reading and God bless you...

[Azure24]

God causes (not allows, but causes) many things including evil...

“…so shall the Lord bring upon you all evil things, until He have destroyed you from off this good land…” (Josh. 23:15)

“…shall there be evil [Heb: ra—‘bad, evil’] in a city, and the Lord has not done it? (Amos 3:6)

Is there any real difference in saying that God "gives life" or that God "causes a baby to be born?" Is there any real difference in saying that God "takes away life" or that God "causes us to die?" When it comes to death, we prefer euphemisms. We don't like to hear that "our Mother is DEAD!" We prefer to say that "Mother passed away." We don't want to be so honest or brutal as to say "God KILLED my son" but rather "God took my son." But the use of mellower-sounding euphemisms does not negate the fact that God appointed a time for us to be BORN, and He also has appointed a time when we must DIE.

Our will cannot change any of God’s "appointed events" or His "appointed times" in which each event must occur.You might think that you can. You might suggest that you will commit suicide and shorten your life. How silly—how totally unscriptural. No one can commit suicide unless and until the "appointed time" that God has foreordained that you commit suicide, if indeed God has ordained such a thing for you.

"There is no man that has power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither has he power in [Heb: authority over’] the day of death..." (Ecc. 8:8).

There's more:

"Behold that which I have seen: it is good and comely for one to eat and to drink, and to enjoy the good of all his labor that he takes under the sun all the days of his life, which God gives him: for it is his portion." (Ecc. 5:18).

"Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with Thee, You have appointed his bounds that he cannot pass" (Job 14:5).

"If a man die, shall he live again? All the days of my APPOINTED TIME will I wait [in the grave] till my change [resurrection] come" (Job 14:14).

Ecc. 1:13—"It is an experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it."

Jesus said: "But the very hairs of your head are all numbered" (Matt. 10:30).

Do you realize what that statement means? If your hairs are all numbered, then God must know and take note every time ONE FALLS OUT, for the number then changes. All these things are mentioned in the Bible but some don't want to believe it...

[LeoSalinas22]

azure,

All these things are mentioned in the Bible but some don't want to believe it...

would you agree that it isn't up to you, even if you show people these verses, for them to see the truth? it is at God's appointed time that they should see any of this. we plant the seed and God makes it grow. i think some people like to call this "subjective experiences"? i call it, "it is not their appointed time yet to see". the truth can be right there, staring them right in the face, and if their appointed time isn't then, then it isn't time yet. not much we can do right? God's Will be done...

would you also agree that the Spirit is like the wind, we don't know where it comes from or where it is going? this is where you don't have free will. if you follow where the Spirit is going, you come across people that need the message. then is when we plant the seed and pray that they don't get choked up by this world. i ask and say this because it sounds very much like you are trying too hard to get the message across via internet. i don't think God intended the message or report to be given via computers. just my thoughts.

[path_of_one]

I have a simple series of questions.

If God is the one actually moving people to kill one another (which frequently happens), then why did He bother to tell us not to kill/murder?

How can the murderer be held responsible, if it is actually God that moves the murderer to kill someone?

And why bother with any morality or ethics at all?

Because if we have no free will, then we will be exactly what we are, and if we pursue our desires, however sinful, it is not our fault, because we were "moved by God" to act that way.

Then, the most evil of people- Hitler, for example- is acting in accord with God's will just as much as the most saintly of people.

It all becomes a show- a play. It is all illusion, some grand screenplay that God writes for His amusement. We have not much to do with it at all, so then there is no reason to attempt to do much of anything. The logical conclusion for our own lives, in terms of practical action, is the same as the atheistic view (but worse)- do whatever you want, because none of it matters. Any lasting effect you have, positive or negative, moral or immoral, is not due to you anyway. In fact, there is no good or evil, no positive or negative, since everything is according to God's design, including what we perceive to be as evil.

And there is no hope for salvation for anyone who has not already been predetermined to be saved. So there is no point in any discussion- the regular spreading of the Gospel or debates such as this. It was all pre-scripted, so there is no meaning for any of us. I'd ask you why you're here even debating, since obviously none of us that disagree can possibly agree with you (since we were predestined to disagree), but then... of course you are predestined to go on and on in this debate... So you are unable to answer that question satisfactorily anyway.

Seems a singularly dismal view, if you ask me. Disempowering and to be honest, boring. No hope for change, no hope for people to connect to God, unless they already would have. Glad I don't agree with you. I'd find such a world deeply depressing.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Azure24

How can God make the future if there is free will? This means that doesn't know what we will do...

Who said God doesn't know what we will do? If God is at "the beginning" and the "at end," this might suggest that God experiences time differently than we do. {Perhaps something like everything happening all at once in a state of timelessness or eternity? I can't say for sure. If this is the case, then of course God would know how we react, because God experiences everything, past, present, and future, all at once.}

The real question would then be this: Is God a micromanager? I'm sure God could be, if that is what God wanted. However, is it necessary for God to micromanage everything?

[Azure24]

Hello LeoSalinass22,

It is good to see you are back again (but you never left?).

Originally Posted by LeoSalinas22

azure,

would you agree that it isn't up to you, even if you show people these verses, for them to see the truth? it is at God's appointed time that they should see any of this. we plant the seed and God makes it grow. i think some people like to call this "subjective experiences"? i call it, "it is not their appointed time yet to see". the truth can be right there, staring them right in the face, and if their appointed time isn't then, then it isn't time yet. not much we can do right? God's Will be done...

Yes, perhaps you are right. After all the revelation will be revealed to everyone...

[Xavier Breath]

Isaiah 45:7 is one of my favorite passages. It is a teaching, I think, not about "free Will", but rather about where evil comes from, and what that means. The first part of the verse expresses a standard dichotomy" Light and darkness. The opposite of light is dark. In "forming" the light, God took the uniform light, which is no easier to see in than uniform darkness, and separated it from darkness, creating contrast, which enables us to perceive the light even better than if it were uniform. The implication is that to make light useful, and to make it a "choice", there needs to be a contrasting alternative. Pretty basic stuff. This stanza, by presenting information we already easily grasp, sets up how we are to interpret the next. Aside form God taking "ownership" for the act described, it is nothing even the least intellectual of us can grasp.
It is the next stanza which is astonishing to me.
Apparently, the opposite of "evil" is not "good", as I supposed, but is in fact "peace". Those of you who own a Strong's will see that these terms are plain, and unambiguously refer to the concepts, not some personification or alternate. It clearly states that God Created Evil. It explains he did so to provide contrast to Peace, like darkness contrasts to light. The implication, I believe, is that we now have a choice. The part that really lights me up is this: I find it much easier to distinguish "peace" (which has outward manifestations) than to distinguish "good" which often is quite dependent on paradigms, perceptions, and knowledge of circumstances and conditions of heart that are not available to me, the chooser).
As I see it, this passage is intended to educate me into making better choices. Why would a God who has already predetermined my every action and outcome give me the illusion of choice?
Indeed, what is the point of the Prodigal Son story if the father in it was completely in charge of the wayward son's every action and choice?
If God had wanted the universe to unfold exactly as he laid it out, it would be made that way, and we would all be compelled to worship Him and obey His commandments. I believe that GOD IS PRO CHOICE, that indeed this is what creation is all about.
God will make the general course of the world follow His plan whether we go along or not, as is His right and within His power as Creator, but the most incredible thing about the God of the Bible is that He imposed on Himself the rule NOT to interfere with the will of His creatures, because to do so would be to void the benefit of their having voluntarily chosen to follow Him.

To paraphrase Screwtape, God wants each of us "little vermin" to become like Him, but at the same time remain "disgustingly" distinct from Him. Evil is empty, and seeks to be filled by consuming us. God is full to overflowing, and seeks to overflow into us without consuming or absorbing us.

I believe in a God who created me in His own image, meaning that I, too, am a creator. I get to create my own path through the world He made and rules. I get to make choices that determine whether my path will be easy or hard, rewarding or taxing, fulfilling or empty. My choices will have an impact on His creation, to be sure, and the truly spectacularly erroneous ones will take no small effort on His part to counteract; nonetheless His will ultimately prevails through the fulfillment of His great plan, whether I help or not.
Do I choose peace? Or do I choose the alternative?
God will allow me to experience the consequences of my choices, but this would be meaningless if my choices were already made for me. Would you like to play a game of football in which you controlled the plays and players for both sides? Where the other team's fumble in the end zone that resulted in the go-ahead safety was scripted by you before the opening kickoff?
Even more meaningless would be the other team for showing up. And the announcers for sounding excited.
In fact, why are those who believe in predetermination, or predestination, even writing about it? They cannot change my mind on the subject, even as I cannot change it, if what they say is true.
That said, I hope they are wrong. In fact, if they are not wrong, there is no need for hope, or dreams, or plans, or even education or discussion. I do not choose to believe them....or at least, I am under the illusion that I choose so.............!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

The real question would then be this: Is God a micromanager? I'm sure God could be, if that is what God wanted. However, is it necessary for God to micromanage everything?

Genesis 2

1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

If God is resting on the seventh day, and God sanctified that day, is God micromanaging on the sanctified day of rest?

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Azure24

God causes (not allows, but causes) many things including evil...

I recall Matthew 18:14 which says that it is NOT his will that any should perish.

Originally Posted by Azure24

Is there any real difference in saying that God "gives life" or that God "causes a baby to be born?" Is there any real difference in saying that God "takes away life" or that God "causes us to die?" When it comes to death, we prefer euphemisms. We don't like to hear that "our Mother is DEAD!" We prefer to say that "Mother passed away." We don't want to be so honest or brutal as to say "God KILLED my son" but rather "God took my son." But the use of mellower-sounding euphemisms does not negate the fact that God appointed a time for us to be BORN, and He also has appointed a time when we must DIE.

Our will cannot change any of God’s "appointed events" or His "appointed times" in which each event must occur.You might think that you can. You might suggest that you will commit suicide and shorten your life. How silly—how totally unscriptural. No one can commit suicide unless and until the "appointed time" that God has foreordained that you commit suicide, if indeed God has ordained such a thing for you.

False. If you believe scripture...

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Originally Posted by Azure24

Jesus said: "But the very hairs of your head are all numbered" (Matt. 10:30).

Do you realize what that statement means? If your hairs are all numbered, then God must know and take note every time ONE FALLS OUT, for the number then changes. All these things are mentioned in the Bible but some don't want to believe it...

Do you understand the scope of the statement? A hair is already dead, and a person can not change it. The hairs of everyone who has ever lived are still numbered. Every cell, every thought, every action... what has passed or is dead is not lost, and is still counted.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Until heaven and earth pass, everything that has been done here has been recorded, and it is still t-here. The entire thing. Like a giant book that you might read someday:

Matthew 10:26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by LeoSalinas22

and when you do God's Will, then your will is taken away.

I submit there is a difference between a servant and a slave. A slave gives will and loses his. A servant gives will and gains. I find that Jesus was a selective servant, because there was judgment in what he gave. Again: A slave gives will and loses his. A servant gives will and gains.

I think of giving will as giving choices. I find that when a person gives choices, they get back so many choices that they wish they had more time for them all. For example: Ask your wife what you can do for her on a day. Her list will grow and you will have many, many choices. Ask her if she is willing to do something for you, and you will have many, many choices. Either way they do multiply in a way that defies the math. The more choices that we can give the better. It is due to the education of each other, the communication, and the cooperation. Faith is a key to knowledge, and the power of the knowledge brings even more to choose from. I am finding that it is the same with God, you give him choices and you will get many more right back at ya. For example, giving to the poorest is giving to God. Not as a slave, but as a servant. There is so much to choose from.

[Azure24]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

If God is the one actually moving people to kill one another (which frequently happens), then why did He bother to tell us not to kill/murder?

Because we shouldn't kill/murder each other...

Are you telling me God created man and thought he would not sin? Do you think God cannot get rid of the Devil and Evil of this world? Are you telling me God cannot create man not to sin?

If God created man perfect and destroyed the Devil, would the world be like the way it is today? No.

Do you believe God knows everything? You should! And if you do, then tell me if God knew a man was going to kill another why doesn't he prevent him?

If the Devil is decieving man why does God not get rid of him? You would say so we could resist him. But clearly not everyone does, so why bother?

Originally Posted by path_of_one

How can the murderer be held responsible, if it is actually God that moves the murderer to kill someone?

If two people are in a car and a tree falls on it and kills both inside, don't you think God knew it would happen?

Are you telling me God didn't know man would kill Jesus?

Originally Posted by path_of_one

...Because if we have no free will, then we will be exactly what we are, and if we pursue our desires, however sinful, it is not our fault, because we were "moved by God" to act that way.

Did God make us perfect? Oh that's right he tried but he failed...

Originally Posted by path_of_one

Then, the most evil of people- Hitler, for example- is acting in accord with God's will just as much as the most saintly of people.

Satan isn't doing God's will either...

Originally Posted by path_of_one

...It all becomes a show- a play. It is all illusion, some grand screenplay that God writes for His amusement.

...The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life FROM the creation of the world..(Revelation 17:8)

Ignore this...God is writing this book as we speak...

Originally Posted by path_of_one

...And there is no hope for salvation for anyone who has not already been predetermined to be saved.

God creates mankind, knowing most of the human population is going to Hell for all eternity, how cruel... Oh that's right he doesn't how naive...

God didn't know the Snake was in that garden, he had no other place to put that tree of knowledge either, God is gullible as he seemed to think Adam and Eve would listen to him...

Originally Posted by path_of_one

It was all pre-scripted, so there is no meaning for any of us.

Revelation was written by some wacko who thought he could predict the future and Jesus just got lucky when he said someone would portray him...Why didn't Jesus tell Judas what he would do, maybe he could have been saved him...Oh well he is rotting in Hell now anyway...

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I'd ask you why you're here even debating, since obviously none of us that disagree can possibly agree with you (since we were predestined to disagree), but then... of course you are predestined to go on and on in this debate... So you are unable to answer that question satisfactorily anyway.

Yes and you know all this because you wrote the script...

Originally Posted by path_of_one

...No hope for change, no hope for people to connect to God, unless they already would have...

That's what people in Hell are feeling...

Your idea of God is depressing... In fact it is Evil...

As you seem to think Hitler is in Hell right now...Cursing God for even making him...(as many in "Hell" would) Oh well they had a choice, but they blew it! Our God "loves" us so he keeps a few and sends the rest to Hell, because apparently one "chooses" to spend the rest of eternity there suffering... You seem to think God tells us to love our neighbour, but then condemns those that don't for the rest of all eternity...Isn't God supposed to set an example?

[Azure24]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

...Until heaven and earth pass, everything that has been done here has been recorded...

Erm, wouldn't that be "Until heaven and earth pass, everything that WAS being done WAS being recorded"

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Azure24

Are you telling me God created man and thought he would not sin? Do you think God cannot get rid of the Devil and Evil of this world? Are you telling me God cannot create man not to sin?

Azure, I think you make a lot of assumptions about my beliefs in this thread, most of which are unfounded. So I will try to explain.

I think God created humanity as sentient beings, with the capacity to choose whether to align oneself with God's will or not, and the capacity to intuitively discern what is within God's will. We all carry within us the light of God, and if we turn toward this light and listen to God's word, which is writ on our heart, we gradually sin less. What happens in the meantime is forgiven by grace.

I don't believe in the Devil. I believe in Satan in a very Jewish way, from what I gathered (though I am not Jewish). I believe there is an adversary that is within God's will, and its purpose is for us to overcome it. It is our own self-centered desires, and each of us can overcome it. God can get rid of it, but then we have the power to do this in our own lives as well, which God has given each of us.

As for evil, it depends on your definition and what you mean. I do not view the natural processes of death, destruction, disasters, etc. as evil. They just are. If they feel evil, it is due to our perspective and our attachment to having things comfortable and how we want them, rather than acceptance of the earth as it is. In fact, in many ways these natural processes are good, because they bring with them new life and often, through suffering through them, people are brought closer to one another and more loving. People learn spiritual lessons by facing disease and natural disasters. Other evil is related to suffering that humans cause. God gives us the capacity to choose His will or not. If we choose to follow our temptations of greed, self-centeredness, anger, hatred, fear... it leads to things like famine, war, more disease, poverty. God could end all this, but only by revoking our capacity for choice. Instead, God forgives our sins and yet calls us to change ourselves, which is fully within our own capacity due to God's grace.

God created humanity with the choice of whether or not to sin. I don't believe in original sin, so I don't think we are born into it. I think each of us chooses if we will sin (go against God's will). It is fairly easy to tell what is sinful- if it builds up unconditional love and peace, it is good. If not, it is sinful. Humans choose to sin, but they could choose otherwise.

If God created man perfect and destroyed the Devil, would the world be like the way it is today? No.

Again, I don't think the Devil exists as the anti-god the way this seems to posit. I think the Adversary exists, and evil happens because people don't follow God's will. But I do not think God created an angelic being (the Devil) that fell from grace and is allowed to run amok on earth. I believe people should take full responsibility for their own sins and the evil things in the world and quit blaming a fallen angel for it. (I realize this is not orthodox belief in Christianity, but it is my belief.) The world would change if we would quit blaming original sin and the Devil and start changing the world according to Christ's teaching of how to behave.

I'm not sure what you mean by "creating man perfect." Perfection depends on your perspective. I believe God creating humanity perfectly able to choose good, and perfectly able to discern what is good. We are able to choose otherwise, but that doesn't make His creation imperfect. It makes our choice imperfect.

Do you believe God knows everything?

Yes.

You should!

Quite frankly, it isn't your job here on earth to tell me what I should and should not believe. You aren't God or Christ, or the only person who has interpreted the Bible.

And if you do, then tell me if God knew a man was going to kill another why doesn't he prevent him?

Because maybe (just maybe) God doesn't experience time and omniscience the way you assume He does. Time is not linear, you know? So the issue of cause/effect is not as simple as you seem to think it is. In our particular culture we perceive time as linear and having clear cause/effect rules. But it doesn't in physics and it doesn't in various other cultures. And I'm pretty sure that my perspective on time isn't the same as God's.

God made sentient beings (humans, for example) to have the capacity to choose. If He prevented us from doing wrong, we would not have this capacity and so could not be held responsible for our actions.

That said, in the end, God's will is done. I have ideas about what this means, but I won't go into the details. Suffice it to say I do not think it means that God pulls the strings on every sentient being every moment. I think it is more that there is a Divine Plan, and this will happen no matter what choices we individually make.

If the Devil is decieving man why does God not get rid of him? You would say so we could resist him. But clearly not everyone does, so why bother?

First, I don't believe in a literal Devil. Second, I don't think the Devil decieves, I think Satan (in an adverserial role) tempts us to make wrong choices. Anyone seeking God (goodness, unconditional love, and peace) will not be turned away or deceived. So if we are deceived, we chose to be so because we were already intent on serving ourselves rather than God.

God doesn't get rid of this Adversary, this inner self-centeredness, because we are already full equipped with God's strength to overcome it if we choose to do so. God already vanquished the Adversary for us through Christ. We only have to embrace the gift and use it.

And you say not everyone does. But I say I cannot know others' hearts or what their afterlife is like. I tend to think all beings are able to repent and reunite with God as soon as they are ready, no matter how long it takes.

If two people are in a car and a tree falls on it and kills both inside, don't you think God knew it would happen? Are you telling me God didn't know man would kill Jesus?

Again, you're putting God into the same experience of time you have. I suggest you pick up "Einstein's Dreams"- a fascinating little novel- and get a physicist's perspective on all the ways time could be conceived of to work. This might help open up your perspective on what time may be like for a non-human being. Time is not linear.

God may know something will happen, but that does not mean God caused it to happen. Knowledge and causation are two different things.

Did God make us perfect? Oh that's right he tried but he failed...

Already answered this. I don't think God failed at anything. God is not responsible for our bad choices, since He gave us everything we need to make good choices.

Satan isn't doing God's will either...

Depends on how you view Satan. I suppose you view him in the orthodox way as an anti-god. I happen to think that is a warped way of interpreting a being that was quite different in Judaism, and therefore in early Christianity.

...The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life FROM the creation of the world..(Revelation 17:8)

Ignore this...God is writing this book as we speak...

Again, knowledge vs. causation. Two different things. Non-linear time. Etc.

God creates mankind, knowing most of the human population is going to Hell for all eternity, how cruel... Oh that's right he doesn't how naive...

No idea what you're talking about, and if you are saying these are my beliefs or yours. I abstain from judging others, so it isn't up to me to determine if some/most/any people are going where. My intuitive sense, from my experience of a God that is Love, is that all will eventually be saved.

I don't believe in a literal Hell. Or going anywhere for all of eternity. I don't have a lot of detailed beliefs in the afterlife. It's just not my focus. I trust God will put each being where it is best for them.

God didn't know the Snake was in that garden, he had no other place to put that tree of knowledge either, God is gullible as he seemed to think Adam and Eve would listen to him...

Again, I can't tell if these are your beliefs or assumptions you have about mine. I don't interpret Genesis literally. And again, I don't think knowledge is the same thing as causation.

Revelation was written by some wacko who thought he could predict the future and Jesus just got lucky when he said someone would portray him...Why didn't Jesus tell Judas what he would do, maybe he could have been saved him...Oh well he is rotting in Hell now anyway...

Clarification, again, would be helpful. No idea where all this is coming from. I think Revelation was a book that actually referred to the time of persecution of early Christians, but has spiritual truth for us today as we face times of suffering and social ills. I don't read Revelation literally as a divination of the future, no. Even if one did, it requires a ton of interpretation and I've heard dozens and dozens of different interpretations. So obviously no one has a real handle on its true meaning.

Jesus did tell Judas what he would do. You might review the account of the Last Supper.

I don't make any judgment whatsoever about Judas. I pray that all those who cause great suffering will eventually repent and be saved. "Forgive them, for they know not what they do..." Doesn't mean I think they could not have made another choice, but rather that I pray they eventually do make another choice.

That's what people in Hell are feeling...

On that we agree, because I think hell is simply (and horrifically) separation from God. However, I don't think hell is any more eternal than one chooses it to be. God is always there, waiting.

Your idea of God is depressing... In fact it is Evil...

OK, whatever you say. My experience of God has been incredibly uplifting, joyful, peaceful, and loving. I fail to see how that is depressing, but to each their own. As for evil, I fail to see how, since my experience of God is such that each person has within them the light of God, the capacity to choose goodness and to love, and God is Love. Basically, my experience of God is that He gives grace freely, and is always waiting with His arms open for us to embrace Him. If that's evil in your eyes, I'm not sure what goodness would be.

As you seem to think Hitler is in Hell right now...Cursing God for even making him...(as many in "Hell" would) Oh well they had a choice, but they blew it!

Um, no. What I said was that Hitler chose evil things consistently, and others do not. But if Hitler had no free will, then he cannot be held responsible for his actions. So therefore he (and his actions) would be just as good as those that alleviate rather than cause suffering.

I made no mention of what happened to Hitler. I don't believe in eternal hell, and I don't believe in judging what happens to other people. I pray that people who choose to cause suffering, like Hitler, eventually repent and become loving.

Our God "loves" us so he keeps a few and sends the rest to Hell, because apparently one "chooses" to spend the rest of eternity there suffering...

God sends us nowhere. We choose whether or not to separate ourselves from God. And no choice we make is for an eternity. It is only for as long as we choose it.

You seem to think God tells us to love our neighbour, but then condemns those that don't for the rest of all eternity...Isn't God supposed to set an example?

I believe God is Love. Unconditional love. But also perfect justice. God doesn't condemn anyone for eternity. We choose what we choose for as long as we choose it. God gave us the example of Jesus as a Divine life, of what humanity should aspire to be- completely loving, completely just.

I believe God waits for us indefinitely, but He will not force us (choose for us, cause us) to come to Him. We do this when we choose to. My suspicion is that eventually we all choose to. But I am not God, so I don't really know.