There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Juantoo3,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Your response surprises me, please continue.

in every manner that i can tell a beings actions are influenced by past experience, their perception of the situation around them, the relationships that are connected from one memory to another and external factors all contributing to influence a beings choices and decisions.

perhaps we don't have the same understanding of the term "free will". this term is understood by me to mean the ability to make conscious decisions without influence.

metta,

~v

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Vajra!

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

in every manner that i can tell a beings actions are influenced by past experience, their perception of the situation around them, the relationships that are connected from one memory to another and external factors all contributing to influence a beings choices and decisions.

perhaps we don't have the same understanding of the term "free will". this term is understood by me to mean the ability to make conscious decisions without influence.

That would be a new twist to me. "Free will," at least as I understand, doesn't mean free of influence or experience. That would require reinventing the wheel at every opportunity, no? Free will as I understand means being able to select from among influences and learn from experiences in order to direct a pending choice. If I am understanding Azure correctly, then there is no selection among influences (one cannot choose to be Democrat or Republican) and experience is moot. One is born to serve as one is created to be.

And if I have misunderstood or oversimplified, I am open to correction.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

Namaste Juantoo3,

thank you for the post.




in every manner that i can tell a beings actions are influenced by past experience, their perception of the situation around them, the relationships that are connected from one memory to another and external factors all contributing to influence a beings choices and decisions.

perhaps we don't have the same understanding of the term "free will". this term is understood by me to mean the ability to make conscious decisions without influence.

metta,

~v

To me, free will involves the ability to seek out information and advice (influence), and to accept, reject, or modify such advice/influence according to your perceptions and values, and apply them to your action or non-action. Free will involves being able to control your desires, or to act outside of your desires if you choose. It's the ability to choose "when to grasp and when to let go" in a coordinated manner. {Just my opinion.}

[Azure24]

Hello Vajradhara, (It's good to see someone agrees with me.)

Hello again juantoo3, To be honest I've never really been good at explaining (or winning converts for that matter), but I try to do my best.

You see juantoo3 my conversation with you (and to disagree) is my own choice. This however (in my version of free will) has nothing to do with free will, call it free choice if you want...

Why the Apostle Paul had the same problem with free will also...

"You will say then unto me, Why does He [God] yet find fault? For who has resisted His will [Greek: boulema—‘resolve, purpose, a deliberate intention’]?" (Rom. 9:19).

After explaining to the Romans that God raised Pharaoh (Exodus) up for a specific purpose in God’s plan, Paul foresees the attitudes of his listeners. They will reason that if God is the One behind our actions, and we are totally incapable of doing other than what He determines we will do, then WHY DOES HE FIND FAULT WITH US WHEN WE SIN?

First it is most important that we look at and understand the word translated "will" in Rom. 9:19. It is not the usually Greek word, which is translated "will" hundreds of times in the New Testament. This Greek word boulema is used but twice in the Bible, here in Rom. 9:19 and in Acts 27:43 where it is translated "purpose."

So the question that Paul is setting up is not "…who has resisted His will?" but rather, "who has resisted His purpose [His plan, His intention]?"

To the question, "…who has resisted His will?" the answer is: EVERYONE! But when properly translated, to the question, "who has resisted His purpose?" the answer is: ABSOLUTELY NO ONE!

Jesus (IMO) is the only one to resist sin, this was God's purpose (will - I will use "purpose" from now on). It all starts with the heart, God makes our hearts exeedingly weak. It takes spiritual power not to sin and we simply do not have it. If you belive you have free will, WILL yourself not to sin, go on give it a try, I dare you!

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Juantoo3,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Kindest Regards, Vajra!

That would be a new twist to me. "Free will," at least as I understand, doesn't mean free of influence or experience.

wouldn't it necessitate a will that is free of external influence? a will that is not predicating decisions based on past experience? in essence a will that is totally free of contraint?

it seems that the very term implies such.

That would require reinventing the wheel at every opportunity, no?

that does require a being to reassess every moment of decision making, analyze it to see if it is something that they, per se, are deciding or if it is the product of cultural and social conditioning.

Free will as I understand means being able to select from among influences and learn from experiences in order to direct a pending choice. If I am understanding Azure correctly, then there is no selection among influences (one cannot choose to be Democrat or Republican) and experience is moot. One is born to serve as one is created to be.

well.. from a Christian point of view, i think that he does have support for such a view from the Bible.. it becomes a question of theology, imo, at that point.

if it is, in fact, true that the names of the elect are written in the Book of Life prior to the creation of the universe then there seems to be little question that, for those beings at least, free will is nonexistent.

of course.. i wonder.. have you considered the logical implications of a being that is omniscient and omnipotent? if, as the standard rethoric goes, God knows what you are going to do before you do it then you really cannot do otherwise or you would demonstrate that God is not omniscient.

if one doesn't have those concepts the problem is moot.

metta,

~v

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

To me, free will involves the ability to seek out information and advice (influence), and to accept, reject, or modify such advice/influence according to your perceptions and values, and apply them to your action or non-action. Free will involves being able to control your desires, or to act outside of your desires if you choose. It's the ability to choose "when to grasp and when to let go" in a coordinated manner. {Just my opinion.}

namaste Seattlegal,

these are only our opinions, of course and that is why we are all here, as near as i can tell.

how can you determine that what you choose to seek out has not been influenced by your past experience and current enviornmental conditions?

as near as i can tell free will doesn't have much to do with lessening desire nor of being free from influence of said desires.

i suppose the crux of it is what factors lead us to make our decisions to choose this or that, accept this or reject that?

it is my view that beings cannot make such determinations without reveiw of their previous history and experience. i'm not suggest a more elaborate rendering of Pavlovian conditioning it is more subtle than that and more difficult to actually discover and root out.

that said, the Christian paradigm does support the idea that free will is an illusion. the Christian paradigm also supports the idea that free will is paramount. go figure.

metta,

~v

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Azure,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by Azure24

Hello Vajradhara, (It's good to see someone agrees with me.)

i'd imagine that you'd not have expected to find support for such an idea from Buddhism

It takes spiritual power not to sin and we simply do not have it. If you belive you have free will, WILL yourself not to sin, go on give it a try, I dare you!

i doubt that you would believe it but i do not sin. of course this is because there is no concept of such a thing in my religious paradigm and, honestly, the whole memeplex regarding sin is counter to my understanding of the nature of sentient beings.

that said, i've seen many Christian redefine the term "sin" to essentially mean anything they don't agree with or approve, so in this sense there is little chance that a being could no sin unless that being held the exact same views as the one presuming to determine if another has sinned.

metta,

~v

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Azure

Remember the principles of the Universe: Cause and Effect!

What you don't see is where the cause enters the universe, and where the effect leaves. You see dominos falling one by one and have called it a principle. A principle of what? There are dominos that fall and that will never cause another to fall ever again, and there are dominos that fall without there ever being one behind it to have caused it.

Did you not ever notice that history kind of gets lost so that it can not cause any more effects? Where does it go? Yet you still figure the reverse is not possible, that a cause can not enter without it being the recycling of a leftover effect.

[Azure24]

Namaskar Vajradhara,

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

...i'd imagine that you'd not have expected to find support for such an idea from Buddhism

This is quite true, though I (think I) know Buddhism's philosophy on Free will.

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

that said, i've seen many Christian redefine the term "sin" to essentially mean anything they don't agree with or approve, so in this sense there is little chance that a being could no sin unless that being held the exact same views as the one presuming to determine if another has sinned.

This again is true. In terms of Christianity Free will contradict's Jesus and God's foreknowldge. This becomes especially important for the doctrines relating to salvation and predestination (like the one I mentioned about Peter).

To say there is free will is to say everything is foreseen; yet free will is given (which is a paradox).

In general terms we are always influenced. Our choices are causally determined by some combination of our genes, our upbringing, and our present circumstances (or something of the sort).

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Folks, let's get something straight. Even the computer you are using to read this post, has randomness built in that the Creator can't control.

Sure he can. Just pull the plug.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

namaste Seattlegal,

these are only our opinions, of course and that is why we are all here, as near as i can tell.

how can you determine that what you choose to seek out has not been influenced by your past experience and current enviornmental conditions?

Of course what we choose to seek out is influenced by our past experience as well as our conjecture regarding the future. That is one of the processes by which we learn. We can continue in the same rut, making the same mistakes, or we can change course by learning from our mistakes.

as near as i can tell free will doesn't have much to do with lessening desire nor of being free from influence of said desires.

I would say that having the skillfulness to manage our desires certainly opens up a greater range of possibilities from which we are able to choose and be successful in.

i suppose the crux of it is what factors lead us to make our decisions to choose this or that, accept this or reject that?

That, as well as our abilities and skills, our core values, and our motivations, along with any number of other factors. These would vary between different beings.

it is my view that beings cannot make such determinations without reveiw of their previous history and experience. i'm not suggest a more elaborate rendering of Pavlovian conditioning it is more subtle than that and more difficult to actually discover and root out.

Is it not true that each of us is unique in previous histories and experiences? One could look at it from the perspective that each being's unique history and experiences are actually part of that being?

that said, the Christian paradigm does support the idea that free will is an illusion. the Christian paradigm also supports the idea that free will is paramount. go figure.

metta,

~v

Sort of like the Buddhist idea of there being no "self?"

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Sure he can. Just pull the plug.

Even then there'd still be a lot of randomness in the voltages in the circuits.

Gaussian-distributed white noise. Everything above the ground state, absolute zero, has it.

It's a stochastic universe.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Azure24

This again is true. In terms of Christianity Free will contradict's Jesus and God's foreknowldge. This becomes especially important for the doctrines relating to salvation and predestination (like the one I mentioned about Peter).

To say there is free will is to say everything is foreseen; yet free will is given (which is a paradox).

Mark 10:23-27
23 Then Jesus looked around and said to His disciples, “How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!” 24 And the disciples were astonished at His words. But Jesus answered again and said to them, “Children, how hard it is for those who trust in riches to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
26 And they were greatly astonished, saying among themselves, “Who then can be saved?”
27 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Azure24

This again is true. In terms of Christianity Free will contradict's Jesus and God's foreknowldge. This becomes especially important for the doctrines relating to salvation and predestination (like the one I mentioned about Peter).

Faith is a matter of giving will. You think God cheated, that he did NOT give you the will, but that he still demands it back? Say, wasn't Peter a sinner, not doing some things that he should of, or doing some things that he shouldn't? Didn't Jesus say that a person is a slave of their own sins?

Originally Posted by Azure24

To say there is free will is to say everything is foreseen; yet free will is given (which is a paradox).

God can call shots that man can not. There is a history that you can not see, that God can. There is a future that you can not make, but that God can. What paradox?

Originally Posted by Azure24

In general terms we are always influenced. Our choices are causally determined by some combination of our genes, our upbringing, and our present circumstances (or something of the sort).

So what chooses between the genes, the upbringing, or the present circumstances? That would be a matter up to the free will. Or, maybe not in your case?

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Even then there'd still be a lot of randomness in the voltages in the circuits.

Gaussian-distributed white noise. Everything above the ground state, absolute zero, has it.

It's a stochastic universe.

Are you trying to control it, or to measure it? He said control and you can control it. A sledge hammer does wonders. That is, if you have the free will to use it. Just to be clear, we are talking computers, right? ... careful with that hammer.