There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

[Thomas]

If I may ... you seem to have a very negative (Calvinist?) view of humanity, but then I am a Catholic, so we might be accused of being overly-optimistic ...

Originally Posted by Azure24

If the bondage of the flesh cause us to do what we do not wish (will). Then aren't we doing Satan's will (which is not Free will, but the ILLUSION of Free wil)?

Not necessarily. What is shown is a weakness of the individual will, not the operation of an external source over which the individual has no control. To go against one's conscience, and then say 'the devil made me do it' is no excuse, it's a cop-out.

We know the choices, and we choose.

Now the options are there before us, thus all that is good stems from God, and all that is not good doesn't ... but we choose ... you are right to say that we have little or no say over the options available to us, but that is not the point, it's the choosing that counts.

Man can choose to resist God, or resist Satan, or resist himself:
"Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13

People rarely realise that to follow a religion involves, to some degree, 'laying down one's life' as it involves 'shouldering one's cross' ... but then from the outside the gift of faith is seen as a bind and a burden and a limitation of 'personal freedom' (the megamyth of modernity) ...

To sacrifice oneself for the sake of another requires one to overcome one's own animal instinct/will to survive. Many have done so, but not all do so for a religious motive.

Originally Posted by Azure24

Hence therefore
If we do what we wish (and the bondage of the flesh cause us not to do it) then surely what we wish (will) is to do good. Isn't it?

Not necessarily. Many people know smoking is killing them, but continue to smoke.

St Thomas Aquinas said that no man wills evil, but rather wills a lesser good. Thus one can will what is good (for me), but at the same time know it is a selfish action.

Originally Posted by Azure24

Hence therefore
To do good is also God's wish (will) isn't it?

Yes.

Originally Posted by Azure24

Hence therefore
By doing good, we are doing God's wish (will) also isn't it?

Yes.

Originally Posted by Azure24

Therefore...
By doing God's wish (will) we are doing GOD'S will not OUR'S!

No, not at all. The two just happen to coincide.

My kids do their own thing ... but they've never let me down, and I am enourmously proud of what they have done (so far ... fingers crossed) — but I would not assume, and hope to God, they are not who they are out of fear or my brainwashing them ... it just so happens that they, like their mother and father, hold the same values in common.

If you are arguing that there is no such thing as free will, then man can do no good, and by the same token man can do no evil, and by that selfsame rule, God is the source of all that is good, and all that is evil.

Which Caltholic theology does not allow.

And I think you're missing the point.

It's not about obeying God, it's not about doing God's will ... it's about knowing God, and loving God, and wanting to be with God ... it's about participation ... otherwise we wouldn't need to know about God at all, we might as well be automatons ... in fact animals.

Consider:
"And the Lord God having formed out of the ground all the beasts of
the earth, and all the fowls of the air, brought them to Adam to see
what he would call them: for whatsoever Adam called any living creature
the same is its name." Genesis 2:19 emphasis mine.

And ...

"And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven." Matthew 16:19

Both cases clearly show man's creative freedom, and furthermore I would suggest that were it possible, God 'delights' in human creativity ... we know that Jesus wept, but I am sure that He laughed, also.

I think you do man down, and sell God short ...

Thomas

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Thomas

...it's not about doing God's will ...

"Thy kingdom come, thy ___ be done."

One person's free will does not end where another starts. Two or more people can drive the same car together, but two people can not drive the same car in opposite directions and two cars can not be driven into the same space. Faith: will per the will of another.

Mark 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, "Have faith in God."

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Faith: will per the will of another.

Exactly. Communio.

Thomas

[17th Angel]

What about the mentally ill and so on and so forth... Such as... (I am REALLY sorry, do not know the correct word for it) but when people are vegtablised? You know? Like no sight sound movement... So on and so forth... What level of free will is there?

[Thomas]

Well, obviously if the capacity to will is damaged, then there is none, is there?

Count yourself lucky...

Thomas

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Well, obviously if the capacity to will is damaged, then there is none, is there?

Count yourself lucky...

Thomas

What?

Count yourself lucky....

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

What about the mentally ill and so on and so forth... Such as... (I am REALLY sorry, do not know the correct word for it) but when people are vegtablised? You know? Like no sight sound movement... So on and so forth... What level of free will is there?

Can't define will as the ability of a body to act or speak 17th. Will is the ability of a spirit to accept or reject.

The "Bird man" of Alcatraz, was imprisoned for life, yet he refused to remain so. He regained his freedom, through the care and unconditional love of birds, who were free to come and go as they pleased. They could not break his will, and so he remained free of will, and was admired for it. Indeed, he "captured" the hearts of guards and convicts alike, by his selfless dedication to the poorest of the avian genus, and the loyalty they gave him.

v/r

Q

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Can't define will as the ability of a body to act or speak 17th. Will is the ability of a spirit to accept or reject.

The "Bird man" of Alcatraz, was imprisoned for life, yet he refused to remain so. He regained his freedom, through the care and unconditional love of birds, who were free to come and go as they pleased. They could not break his will, and so he remained free of will, and was admired for it. Indeed, he "captured" the hearts of guards and convicts alike, by his selfless dedication to the poorest of the avian genus, and the loyalty they gave him.

v/r

Q

NO! WAIT! I remember that!!! Wow... How did something like that just leave my memory...

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

NO! WAIT! I remember that!!! Wow... How did something like that just leave my memory...

There is also a movie you might consider, titled "Merry Christmas Mr. Lawrence". It stars of all people, David Bowee. But I think you will find the free will of the character, is unfettered by his captors, or captives, and indeed, this refusal to give his will up, changes many lives, for the better (how ironic).

It is not a happy ending movie, but the end gives hope and faith to move forward, regardless of what might be an obstacle.

v/r

Q

[lunamoth]

"The sin, both of men and angels, was rendered possible by the fact that God gave them free will: thus surrendering a portion of His omnipotence (it is again a deathlike or descending movement) because He saw that from a world of free creatures, even though they fell, He could work out (and this is the re-ascent) a deeper happiness and a fuller splendour than any world of automata would admit."

CS Lewis

[Azure24]

Originally Posted by Thomas

To go against one's conscience, and then say 'the devil made me do it' is no excuse, it's a cop-out.

I'm not saying people can say the devil made me do it. THEY did it. The Devil can't make anyone do anything, BUT the Devil creates the illussion of Free will...

Originally Posted by Thomas

We know the choices, and we choose.

I never said we can't make choices...

There was a time when I too was hoodwinked into believing that man has a "free will." I believed free will to be man’s ability to make choices, change his mind, learn from experiences, etc. And since it is a fact that man can indeed do these things, it seemed evident to me that man has free will. But then I learned that these are not the definition of free will at all....

...Free will does not actually and literally mean that one can make choices, create, change his mind, or reformulate ideas and data, etc., but that those choices and thought processes must themselves be free thoughts and free choices. "Free will" is only true if our choices are also free. But free from what? Why, free from being forced upon us against our will, or free from being caused by anyone or anything except our OWN will. And so, yes, man can think, process data, make choices, change his choices, etc. But none of these activities are free from internal or external CAUSES.

That man has a will, there is no debate. It is the teaching that man himself determines his own will, FREELY, without anything causing his will or his choices to be what they are. The idea of free will or free moral agency is that man can by himself unaided by anything else, originate his own choices of his will.

But does man actually possess such a power? And if he does, where is the proof? Now for all who have no confidence in the Scriptures, let me say that there is absolutely no scientific proof that man has a "free will" or the ability to make "uncaused choices." If such a freedom of the will existed, it should be possible to demonstrate it. But there is no such scientific demonstration that man can formulate thoughts and actions to which absolutely no cause whatsoever can be attributed.

And for all who do have confidence in the Scriptures, let me say equally dogmatically that there is absolutely no Scriptural proof for man having a "free will" or the ability to make "uncaused choices." In every case Scripture shows that it is God Who is behind the scene of all circumstances that influence and cause a man to make the one and only choice possible under any given circumstance. This law of "cause and effect" is stated and demonstrated time and again in Scripture. Ignorance of these behind the scenes causes does not disprove the fact that they are the actual and literal cause of our choices.

There are laws of science that men do not wish to carry over into his private and spiritual life. Why? Well, because he doesn’t like the ramifications of these laws. He does not want to admit that he is bound and controlled by laws. He wants to be "free"—free to be his own god, free to determine his own destiny, free to override the rule and dominance of God, free to rebel or free to obey, but freedom of the will at all cost.

I will admit that it is a real shock when we first come to understand that of ourselves we cannot make one "free" choice to do good. Something must cause that choice, but the carnal mind hates to be "caused" to do anything. "God gave all men free will," he shouts. God gave man no such thing. Free will is a phantom illusion that has deceived the whole world.

There is a connection between this thread and the "Hell is a Hoax" and "who is the beast of Revelation?" threads.

In the case of the latter thread "the man of sin," spoken of by Paul in I Thes. 2, resides not in a physical temple of stone and mortar in Jerusalem, but inside of each and every one of us. This man of sin sits in "the temple of God whose temple ye are." And God calls this man of sin, "a beast".

What possible power does man believe that he possesses which causes him to:

"…oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God [‘as a god’] sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God [‘is a god’]" (II Thes. 2:4)?

As long as this phantom god rules one’s heart, Jesus may only be "with us," but not really "IN us." For Jesus our King to sit in the heart of our temple, the man of sin must be put out, seeing that, "no man can serve two masters," and "what fellowship has light with darkness?"

Before the true spiritual conversion of Christ’s disciples, we read this:

"And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of Truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it sees Him not, neither knows Him: but ye know Him; for He dwells WITH you, and shall [at a future date when they are converted] be IN you" (John 14:16-17).

After years of following Jesus daily the apostles were not as yet converted. In the evening of the last Passover Jesus tells Peter:

"And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold Satan has desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat; But I have prayed for you, that your faith fall not: and when you are converted, strengthen your brethren" (Luke 22:31-32).

Yes indeed, "…when you are converted…." And just when might that be?

Up until the very last day with their Lord, the apostles all believed that they possessed the power of free will, which could enable them to choose their own destiny, and that they could and would have the strength of self determinism and free will to maintain that course. But Jesus told His disciples that they would all forsake Him. In other words, Jesus was foretelling of events that would cause (even ‘force,’ if you will) them to change their wills, against their previously stated wills. They of course, all denied that Jesus knew what He was talking about.

"And Jesus said unto them, all ye shall be offended because of Me this night; for it is written, I shall smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered" (Mark 14:27 & Zech. 13:7).

Originally Posted by Thomas

...thus all that is good stems from God, and all that is not good doesn't ...

Is this right? WRONG!

"That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me, I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, AND CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do ALL THESE THINGS" (Isaiah 45:6-7).

"…it is God [not man] which works in you BOTH TO WILL [God causes us ‘to will’] and TO DO [God causes us ‘to do’] of His good pleasure"

Originally Posted by Thomas

...you are right to say that we have little or no say over the options available to us, but that is not the point, it's the choosing that counts...

No, that is the point!

Originally Posted by Thomas

...No, not at all. The two just happen to coincide...

That's a strange coincidence isn't it?

Originally Posted by Thomas

Which Caltholic theology does not allow.

Fine, I did not say I agreed with Catholic theology.

Originally Posted by Thomas

It's not about obeying God, it's not about doing God's will ...

Do you realise what you are saying?

If you believe we have free will answer this question:

How did Jesus know that his deciples would deny him?

The scriptures say this:

Jesus answered, "I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me." (Luke 22:34)

Maybe you thought it said this:

"And Jesus said unto him [Peter] Verily I say unto you, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shall deny me thrice, but then again, maybe you won’t deny Me three times, seeing that you have a free will that does not need to deny Me even once. It doesn’t depend on what I say, or circumstances brought about by My Father, or what God declares, but rather on your own free will."

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

"The sin, both of men and angels, was rendered possible by the fact that God gave them free will: thus surrendering a portion of His omnipotence (it is again a deathlike or descending movement) because He saw that from a world of free creatures, even though they fell, He could work out (and this is the re-ascent) a deeper happiness and a fuller splendour than any world of automata would admit."

CS Lewis

no more so than when a child falls in football, before his father. While his father looks on and encourages. the child learns to get up again. But it is the child that must decide to "get up again"...

v/r

Q

[Azure24]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

...He could work out...

He could work out? I don't know what god (small g intended) this is, but it sure ain't the one in the Bible... The God I know is the one who has it all worked out...

Originally Posted by Quahom1

no more so than when a child falls in football, before his father. While his father looks on and encourages. the child learns to get up again. But it is the child that must decide to "get up again"...

Nice, and where did you get that quote from? The Bible? Didn't thing so...

Instead you get this:

"You have NOT CHOSEN ME, but I have CHOSEN YOU…" (John 15:16).

Go on, go look it up now...

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Azure24

He could work out? I don't know what god (small g intended) this is, but it sure ain't the one in the Bible... The God I know is the one who has it all worked out...



Nice, and where did you get that quote from? The Bible? Didn't thing so...

Instead you get this:

"You have NOT CHOSEN ME, but I have CHOSEN YOU…" (John 15:16).

Go on, go look it up now...

Understood, and a man can chose "Yes" or "No", that is free will.

v/r

Q

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Azure24

"That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me, I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, AND CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do ALL THESE THINGS" (Isaiah 45:6-7).

Interlinear Isaiah 45:

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...Tpdf/isa45.pdf

Strong's H7451:

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

Note: the term "evil" is not in the sense of a being or personified "noun," it is in the sense of adversity or calamity, ethically bad, distress, etc., translated elsewhere as "wickedness," *not* the devil.

In my humble opinion this places a completely different complexion on the English text of Isaiah 45:7.