There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Azure24

Ok, lets look at what Jesus prophesized would happen with Peter:



Before conversion Peter thought he possessed free will:

"Peter answered and said unto Him, Though all men shall be offended because of you, YET WILL I NEVER BE OFFENDED" (Matt. 26:33).

Jesus responded that Peter had no more freedom of the will to stick by such a statement than a donkey:

"Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, YOU SHALL DENY ME thrice" (Ver. 34).

Peter again responds from the pinnacle of his presumed free will and CORRECTS Jesus to His face:

"Peter said unto Him, Though I should DIE WITH THEE, YET WILL I NOT DENY THEE. Likewise also said ALL THE DISCIPLES" (Ver. 35).

And the rest is history. When Peter was confronted the third time we read this:

"Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I KNOW NOT THE MAN. And immediately the cock crew… And he went out, and wept bitterly" (Matt. 26:74 & 75b). Free will? Where? Give it up.

What about all of the other disciples who also thought they possessed this power of free will and self-determinism?

"But all this was done, that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then ALL THE DISCIPLES FORSOOK HIM, AND FLED" (Matt. 26:56).

Free will? FREE will? FREE WILL? Where? If you still believe man has a will that is "free" from external and internal causes, beyond his control, then your arguments are not with me, but with God’s Word.

What was being stated was Peter would change his mind, because it was foreseen. God wasn't going Change Peter's mind, Peter would. What Christ was also telling Peter, was that he was creature of habit, and it isn't that easy to break habits.

Who knows, in another version of the timeline, maybe Peter did not deny Christ. The future, unlike the past, is not set in stone. Even Revelation tells us this...

[Tao_Equus]

Correct!! There is no such thing as free will! You will do as i tell you or else!!

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Correct!! There is no such thing as free will! You will do as i tell you or else!!

Lol, make me...

[bananabrain]

azure24,

i think you've completely misunderstood what the author of ecclesiastes (traditionally attributed to king solomon) is getting at here, particularly given the context. he's saying there's a *right* time for everything. of course you can do it at the wrong time if you like - that's free will for you.

incidentally, from G!D's PoV, time surely has no meaning, past, present and future are all One, hence there's no free will because no choice is necessary. however G!D has Created the conditions for such within our universe. so in that sense, what is "predetermined" for G!D (because all time is One to G!D) is subject to choice for us.

the phrase "very good" in gen 1:31 is traditionally understood by us to refer to the yetzer ha-r'a or "evil" inclination, without which there would be no change, business, procreation or progress. so, yes, it particularly included the snake in this case, because the snake is identified with the YH-R.

what eve says to G!D in her defence is that the snake confused her - and, indeed, if you look at what the snake said (that "you will become like G!D, knowing the difference between good and evil") this is surely a case of the snake saying something which *was in fact correct*: that the ability to choose is a prerequisite of being able to choose good or evil - which she *did* in fact misunderstand. what G!D then lays out to her is in fact the "small print": OK, you want free will and choice, then this is what goes with it. without this choice, there is no sin - without the possibility of sin/repentance, there is no room for choice.

clearly, there are additional consequences both for adam and the snake.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

what eve says to G!D in her defence is that the snake confused her - and, indeed, if you look at what the snake said (that "you will become like G!D, knowing the difference between good and evil") this is surely a case of the snake saying something which *was in fact correct*: that the ability to choose is a prerequisite of being able to choose good or evil - which she *did* in fact misunderstand. what G!D then lays out to her is in fact the "small print": OK, you want free will and choice, then this is what goes with it. without this choice, there is no sin - without the possibility of sin/repentance, there is no room for choice.

BB,

I asked this question in another thread along similiar lines, and I wonder what your take on it is.

Originally Posted by Dondi

Evil is a consequence of humans having the freewill to choose. But without freewill, there would not be the capacity to love, for love implies a choice.

But then the question is, does God have a freewill? And if so, does He have the capacity to choose evil as well?

Now I know that there are scriptures that attest to God causing evil to come upon people, but that's usually in the form of judgement. The evil I'm addressing in my question is of the moral variety.

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Dondi

Now I know that there are scriptures that attest to God causing evil to come upon people, but that's usually in the form of judgement. The evil I'm addressing in my question is of the moral variety.

I can't say what the Jewish perspective would be, naturally, but I think a Christian answer is that "God is Love." So, no. God does not have free will to not be Love. God is, by definition, Love and all it entails.

Now of course, where it gets sticky is when you think about how God created everything, and some of these things are evil. So how is that possible? I think this is why it is easier for me to see "evil" and "sin" as distancing or separating from God, and a result of the free will of sentient beings. Whereas "goodness" and "love" is cleaving to and uniting with God, also a result of free will, but helped along considerably by God's grace. All sentient beings have God's light in them, and so have the capacity for goodness and love, but we must choose it over self-centered desire and fear, or else we fall perpetually into sin.

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

incidentally, from G!D's PoV, time surely has no meaning, past, present and future are all One, hence there's no free will because no choice is necessary. however G!D has Created the conditions for such within our universe. so in that sense, what is "predetermined" for G!D (because all time is One to G!D) is subject to choice for us.

BB, I found this really interesting. I have rarely tried to summarize it, but this is precisely how I see the predetermination/foreknowledge vs. free will issue. It is not an actual issue at all. The issue is our limitations in understanding time, which seems linear to us, but certainly is not linear for God.

[Quahom1]

If BB is correct, then time and Free will, are relative concepts, dependent upon where they are applied.

But that would conflict with BB's own scriptures (nevermind the NT).

[path_of_one]

Q, if I may say so, I think BB is more saying that we can't fathom how God experiences time. So free will exists, and God knows everything, and it is not contradictory as Azure proclaims.

At least, I didn't get out of what he was saying that either were relative, but more that human understanding of both is flawed. Of course, our understanding of everything is flawed, so it makes sense to me!

[bible_reader]

Do you not think that the Son of God could interpret this man's character?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

Q, if I may say so, I think BB is more saying that we can't fathom how God experiences time. So free will exists, and God knows everything, and it is not contradictory as Azure proclaims.

At least, I didn't get out of what he was saying that either were relative, but more that human understanding of both is flawed. Of course, our understanding of everything is flawed, so it makes sense to me!

But I think we are given good information on just how God does experience time.
1. He is the God of yesterday, today and tomorrow.
2. He always was and always will be.
3. No beginning and no end.
4. 1000 of our years are as a day to Him and a 1000 of His years are as a day to us.
5. He knew us before we were stitched together in the womb.
6. "Before Abraham was born, I Am".
7. His name is "I Am" (which is eternally present).

The common thread in this is the eternal "present", regardless of where "we" are on our linear timeline. It reminds me of an infinity mirror...whether our eyes shift and focus behind us or in front of us, God is still there, and moving in the moments exactly the same as the next or the previous, regardless of which reflection we are focusing on.

By all rights that put's God "outside" of time (our time), and yet able to work within "our time" or moment.

My mother taught me that though we can not go back in time and repair damage to a relationship, we can petition God, who can and will gladly go back and repair the damage for us.

She uses Jacob and his brother as an example. For years Jacob hid from his brother fearing he'd kill him for the wrong he comitted, yet when they finally met, it was as though nothing had ever happened, which left Jacob confused, but relieved. Only God could have repaired the damage to that relationship, and it was a great deal of damage. But He had to have done it in the past, and out of sight of Jacob.

v/r

Q

[path_of_one]

Yes, I agree- but I think that's what BB was trying to say. I know that's what I was trying to say. God exists outside time. This is something we can intellectually think about but never really grasp (at least not while embodied here on earth) because we can't help but have a feeling like time is linear, when in fact it is not.

The analogy I had heard that I thought best described it was in a little book called "Einstein's Dreams." It went something like... Time was not continuous, but rather infinite numbers of little boxes with things happening, like a huge post office with infinite numbers of little mailboxes, each a moment. To those in those boxes, they perceive the present and then see a continuity between past and future. But to the One outside the boxes, looking at all of them at once, all is perceived at once and all time is one time. All time is now, and always now.

That's what I meant when we can't fathom how God experiences time. We might be able to gain (from the Bible, physics, whatever) a glimpse, but we can't really know what it is like to be eternal and experience time that way.

Ultimately, what I was trying to say is that Azure's argument is based on false pretext: that God exists in the same kind of experience of time we do, so predetermination and free will are opposing possibilities. In fact, I argue that because time does not exist to God in the same way at all, the two go hand in hand and are seamless.

[Gatekeeper]

What does this verse mean, in light of free will issue?

Ephesians: 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God

Love,

James

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

Yes, I agree- but I think that's what BB was trying to say. I know that's what I was trying to say. God exists outside time. This is something we can intellectually think about but never really grasp (at least not while embodied here on earth) because we can't help but have a feeling like time is linear, when in fact it is not.

The analogy I had heard that I thought best described it was in a little book called "Einstein's Dreams." It went something like... Time was not continuous, but rather infinite numbers of little boxes with things happening, like a huge post office with infinite numbers of little mailboxes, each a moment. To those in those boxes, they perceive the present and then see a continuity between past and future. But to the One outside the boxes, looking at all of them at once, all is perceived at once and all time is one time. All time is now, and always now.

That's what I meant when we can't fathom how God experiences time. We might be able to gain (from the Bible, physics, whatever) a glimpse, but we can't really know what it is like to be eternal and experience time that way.

Ultimately, what I was trying to say is that Azure's argument is based on false pretext: that God exists in the same kind of experience of time we do, so predetermination and free will are opposing possibilities. In fact, I argue that because time does not exist to God in the same way at all, the two go hand in hand and are seamless.

I disagree and agree. Azure's concept doesn't hold water, but we can fathom God's time (there is nothing man can not achieve, that he puts his mind to) Deuterotomy.

We do fathom God's time, when we step back and watch the world go by, while we are not in it. We can do this in our minds, and only for a short while.

[path_of_one]

But how can we know that is how God really experiences time? It certainly is a different way that we experience time. It is not our ordinary experience. But how do we know it is the same as God's?