There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Azure24

You said Satan doesn't decieve...

"And the GREAT DRAGON was cast out, that OLD SERPENT, called THE DEVIL, and SATAN [Heb: Adversary], which DECEIVES THE WHOLE WORLD and he was cast out into THE EARTH, and his angels were cast out with him" (Rev. 12:9).

Perhaps a different line of inquiry would be in order.

Answer me this, Azure: What was the purpose of Christ's temptation? (You will see where I will go with this)

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Thomas

So men have the choice between good and evil/right and wrong/whatever and whatever ... but they cannot see the alpha and the omega, and assume that short term 'goods' are meaningful, whilst long-term 'goods' are just too much like effort and doing what you're told.

The issue is not free will, the issue is freedom ... man thinks he is free, and in this he is mistaken, because in the exercise of his freedom he gives himself up to those things which he finds gratify the senses and the apetites, but such things are an illusion, and, like the cosmetics industry, the diet industry, the self-development industry, the dating industry ... such freedoms are chimera, ephemeral and without essence ...

Freedom is the greatest self-delusional con-trick of the West, foisted on us by consumerism and the advertising industry ... I should know, I work in it.

Thomas, this is so true, and so sad. When we turn toward God and experience that freedom, we then realize that previously, when we thought we were free, we were actually enslaved and deeply unhappy. Mother Theresa had a whole discussion about how her poverty enabled her to break free from being "owned by her possessions," and I can see this in our society. People become owned by their possessions, their occupation, their social standing, their group memberships, even their nationality. They forget that we are called to give ourselves, our entire selves, to Christ.

And therein lies, I believe, much of the source of deep depression and apathy in the U.S. Our depression rates and rates of violent crime and such are awful and make no sense given our great wealth... until you consider that so many live what Mother Theresa called a "spiritually poor" life. The more freedom we think we have, the more we grasp at whatever temporarily satiates our ego- our looks, our stuff, our jobs, our affiliations- and the more enslaved we become to it. Until we forget we are worth anything at all without these things, making it so that every extra pound or wrinkle, every lost opportunity to advance in our career, every item we are told to buy and can't, makes us feel like nothing.

If we would but turn to God and embrace Him, give ourselves entirely to Him, we would know true joy and worth. We would see that though we are incredibly tiny and unimportant compared to Him, we are each infinitely precious and loved. And then we would know our true worth.

I say this as a person who is definitely a work in progress. I have times when I am sufficiently focused on God to know this freedom, and there are times I stumble and start worrying about "me"- what I look like, what job I have, what I possess. The former generates calm, peace, joy and a deep gratitude. The latter makes me depressed and anxious. But if I keep redirecting my gaze to God and not to all that I am told to want, to need, to be... perhaps one day I will find myself impervious to the incessant clamouring around me of "want this, need that, be this, look that."

Luke 9:23-25 (New International Version)


23Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. 24For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it. 25What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit his very self?




I am so grateful that God waits for us. Forgives us. Comforts us. I'm so grateful God loves us the way He does. The world teaches us that to be loved, we must make ourselves look better, we must make more money, we must earn things. God teaches us that we are already loved, not because of anything we do or have, but because we simply are loved and can love in return. It is so generous- because this love is not tied to who we are, but rather what we are (children and creations of God)- we can never lose it. We do not have to strive to possess it. We need only accept the gift.

[flowperson]

Thomas, Path...Just a wonderful discussion. It took an NDE for me to change my orientation about twenty five years ago. A totally unexpected thing happened because of that trauma.

The veil fell away from my eyes and I saw reality. The other world I had been living and striving in seemed to be a Hollywood film set full of actors after that. Our friends on the sub-asian continents invented a wonderful word for the world of falsehood and illusion...maya. Still working on my reality also.

flow....

[cyberpi]

So now we are denouncing freedom because that could lead to the freedom to sin? Or, perhaps denouncing power because that would perhaps lead to the love of power? Yet, faith is a matter of both freedom and power:

Matthew 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you shall say unto this mountain, "Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

I submit that this one is fitting when discussing freedom:
Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Yet, this one when discussing a lust for power:
Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

[cyberpi]

I think denouncing freedom or power can lead to this:

Matthew 25:26-28 His lord answered and said unto him, "Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

[Azure24]

Hi all,

Ok, to ourselves we are all correct. But only to ourselves. I don't intend to quote anyone, I don't intend to answer anyone's questions. I made this thread naively thinking I could convince some and some agreed with me. Fair enough you don't agree, but don't try to make agree with you. Most threads on this website are people's opinions, I find most these debate discussion futile. So as of now don't try to prove to me you are correct because niether of us are. Quote me if you want, but I want answer (or even read this thread any further.

May God be with you all,
Ovi

[Azure24]

Hi all,
I just want to say something again. I belive God is Sovereign but why do you think the world is the way it is today? If it is because of us then why can't God do something about it?

Is the world full of randomness? Does God really not know how it will all end?

The answer to this question is Romans 9:12-25! I advise everyone to read it(and ALL of it carefully!), then you will know why!...

[Azure24]

In fact, read all verse 9!!...

[Dondi]

Romans chapters 9-11 deal primarily with Paul's concern with Israel. So it is with this in mind that we need to carefully approach this passage of scripture in context to this issue.

God, through Abraham, had a plan (which actually started all the was back to Adam and Eve, but here we are dealing with Israel). It concerned the redemption of Israel and subsequently, through the instrument of Israel, the redemption of mankind. So God's dealings from Abraham to the advent of Christ centered on the children of Israel through whom came the Savior.

For God to accomplish His plan, He took steps to ensure that Abraham's descendants took the proper steps toward the goal of bringing in the Savior. It was a long process involving some 2000 years. So when we read passages like "Jacob have I loved, but Esau I have hated", we should not look at it as if to say that God had some vendetta against Esau, but rather He favored Jacob in using him to carry out the redemptive plan. True, Esau sold his birthright and so forth, but was that a greater sin than Jacob stealing Esau's blessing from Isaac? The truth of the matter is that Jacob was to be the line through which Christ would be born, even before these twins were born.

Take a look at the passage of scripture:

"And Isaac intreated the LORD for his wife, because she was barren: and the LORD was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived.
And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.
And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
And when her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb.
And the first came out red, all over like an hairy garment; and they called his name Esau. And after that came his brother out, and his hand took hold on Esau's heel; and his name was called Jacob: and Isaac was threescore years old when she bare them." - Genesis 25:21-26

Two nations were in Rebekkah's womb. God is regarding not individuals, but nations in the matter of Jacob and Esau. Jacob would become the seed lineage to Christ. But isn't it interesting that the elder will serve the younger. And I find that this is a picture of Christ in relation to Adam. Adam, the son of God (Luke 3:38) would be subjected to Jesus Christ, the Son of God (see Romans 5:12-19, I Cor 15:45-47). So we see here how God is writing the Gospel in Moses and the Prophets, testifying of Christ who is to come, Jacob being the type of the second man.

Later, in Genesis 32-33, we see the two brothers gloriously reconciled.

Later, Esau's decendants (Edom) became a vassel to the nation Israel under King David, just as predicted by the Lord before the two were born. Eventually, the Edomites were conquered by the Israelites some two hundred years before Christ, as prophesized in Obadiah.

The point being that everything that God did in the Old Testament was geared toward the redemptive plan. There was a guidiance of the Israelite toward that purpose, but within that guidance God granted some autonomy on behalf of individuals, a certain amount of leeway, so long as it didn't interfere with God's goals. Sometimes God had to work around people due to disobedience. A perfect example of this is found in Genesis 38.

Judah, one of the 12 sons of Jacob, and the eventual lineage, needed to continue his line. But his first born son, Er, was wicked and God slew him. So Judah had Onan, his second born, go into Tamar (Er's widow) for the purpose of conception. But alas, Onan pulled out, as it were, thereby not impregnating Tamar, and God slew him also for not obeying. Onan thwarted the line. It was important that the line continue. So now Judah had to wait until his third son, Shelah, to become of age before giving Tamar to him. But Tamar couldn't wait, because Judah must have forgotten to give Shelah when he came of age, so Tamar went into Judah, and from there the line continued.

It would have been nice if Er was righteous or Onan was obedience, or Judah remembered to give Tamar to Shelah. But in the midst of all that mess, rifed with sinful actions on all parties, God managed to bring forth His will in spite of all that.

[Thomas]

Hi Azure —

If there is no free will ... what is the point of the Bible?

Thomas

[Dondi]

Now I said all that to say this:

God accomplished what He planned. In this He is Sovereign. His purpose of Israel and the eventual advent of the Messiah was culminated at Calvary. And in the course of world events, He still in the process of redeeming the world. But on an individual level, I believe that He generally allows us to do what we will, in hopes that we will do His will. If we don't, either He will encourage us to do so, or He will find someone else, just as He did with Er and Onan. But in the end, His plan will be done, regardless of our disobedience.

[Thomas]

I refer you to the phrase 'follow me' ... if man did not possess free will, the phrase would be superfluous.

Matthew 16:24:
"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."
The big word here is "if" ... that implies freedom of choice.

Thomas

[Azure24]

Hi all,


Thomas we're speaking of God not Jesus...

There are MANY things that God does that we as mortals are NOT TO IMITATE! God "makes war in righteousness"--we cannot. God KILLS and brings back to life again--we cannot.

"A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord DIRECTS HIS STEPS" (Prov. 16:9).

God could have just as easily said: "...the Lord directs HIS WAY" It's all the same to God.

"Man's goings [Heb: steps] ARE OF THE LORD: how can a man then understand HIS OWN WAY? [it matters not if our steps are good or sinful]" (Prov. 20:24).

"For now thou NUMBEREST my steps [THAT'S pretty specific, don't you think]: dost thou NOT watch over my SIN?" (Job 14:16).

"The steps ['steps' is used to symbolize ALL OF MANS DOINGS] OF A MAN ARE ordered [Heb: established] by the Lord" (Psa. 37:23). If ALL man's steps are "established", then of necessity they are ordered by God IN ADVANCE of him taking those ordered steps...

[Azure24]

I said I wouldn't but...

Originally Posted by Thomas

Hi Azure —

If there is no free will ... what is the point of the Bible?

Thomas

How can you say this If you do not understand what i am saying...

The scripture's (not Bible's) point is to understand God's plan...

And Dondi I don't think you read this properly (show me your interpretation if you will...)

And so, if all is of God (the good and bad), why does He hold us accountable for our sins and deeds?

"For this selfsame thing I rouse you up, so that I should be displaying in you [Pharaoh] My power, and so that My name should be published in the entire earth. Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening. You will be PROTESTING to me, then, 'Why, then is He [God] STILL BLAMING [us for our sins]? for who has WITHSTOOD HIS INTENTION?'" Paul answers this way: "O man! WHO ARE YOU, TO BE SURE, WHO ARE ANSWERING AGAIN TO GOD? That which is molded [that's us] WILL NOT PROTEST TO THE MOLDER, 'Why do you make me thus [a sinner unable and unwilling by my own fabled 'free will' to ever do what is right]?' Or has not the potter [God] the right over the clay [us mortals] out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor?" (Rom. 9:17-21).

Over to you Dondi...

[Dondi]

Again, Pharoah was part of God's plan in dealing with Israel. We know the reason, "...so that My Name should be published the entire earth..." The whole Exodus thing is a type of the Gospel of Christ. As far as Pharoah is concerned, God knows his heart. And since it was already predisposed againt letting Israel go, God used him to show greater things to the world. Do you not think that God could have just killed off every Egyptian and that would have solved the problem, without having to go through all those plagues? But you see, in the long run, He did have mercy on the Egyptians by not killing them all off. But in God's infinite wisdom, He was demonstrating both His mercy and power to the Egyptians, to the Israelites, and to the rest of the world. In fact, if you look at the ten plagues God sent, it started out small, but got worse and worse until the tenth plague killed off the first-born son.

He's only going to harden those who are already stiff-necked. I mean, Pharoah could have just let the Israelites go in the first place and that would be that. God didn't start hardening his heart until after the first time Moses spoke to let his people go. His heart was already hard. But God knew it would be from the start. And actually, God didn't harden Pharoah's heart until He heard Moses complain:

"And Moses said before the LORD, Behold, I am of uncircumcised lips, and how shall Pharaoh hearken unto me? And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land. And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt." - Exodus 6:30, 7:1-3

See, God hardened Pharoah's heart for Moses' and the Israelites sake, for He was teaching the Israelites who is God and give them confidence in Him.

I think God only hardens those who have already made up their mind to resist Him. To whom does He give mercy?

"Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation." - Exodus 15:13

This is speaking of the Israelites. Why did God show mercy to them? Because of the promise He gave to Abraham way back in Genesis 15! Yes, it's mercy to Israel not because of something they did, but because God promised to deliver them and make a great nation through which all the nations of the world will be blessed.

But who else does God give mercy?

"And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments." - Exodus 20:6

"Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;" - Deut. 7:9

"He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy." - Proverbs 28:13

"Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon." - Isaiah 55:7

"Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy." - Matthew 5:7


That seems to put the ball back in our court, don't it?.