Theosophy's Origin of the Universe

[Nick the Pilot]

The metaphor of pre-matter as water is useful, because it helps us to visualize it as water with millions of tiny waves. The Light reflected off the waves, creating millions of tiny reflections — untold millions of Sparks from the single Spirit. These Sparks were the first differentiation of Pre-Matter. The new, periodic universe had appeared.

[pohaikawahine]

Nick - I will be interested in following your interpretation of the Stanza of Dzyan .... I have studied the Hawaiian chant of creation for well over 40 years and you may be interested to know that the first part of the chant takes place in the time of "po" (darkness) and consists of seven "wa" (which can be interperted as periods of time) ....this would be similar to book 1 the creation of the cosmos and the next part of the chant takes place in the time of "ao" (light) which would be the creation of humanity ....

our chant starts (in english)

When space turned around the earth heated
When space turned over, the sky reversed
When the sun appeared standing in shadows
To cause light to make bright the moon

When the Pleiades are small eyes in the night
From the source in thew slime.earth formed
From the source in the dark, darkness formed
From the source in the night, night formed
From the depths of darkness, darkess so deep

Darkness of day
Darkness of night
Of night alone

Did night give birth
Born Kumulipo in the night, male
Born Po'ele in the night female ....... and goes on for over 2000 lines

Our legends also tell of the creation such as the luminious egg carried by a bird ....

the spinning of the web (i-3-10 father-mother spin a web whose upper end is fastened to spirit and the lower one to its shadown end, matter) is found in many cultures .... it is usually associated logically with the story of the spider .... but from my interpretations the "web" represents a part of our brain called the "arachnoid - this is the layer of the brain that lies between the dura mater (hard mother or outermost layer of the brain) and the pia mater (tender mother) which is the innermost layer of the human brain .... the arachnoid (which lies between the coverings of the brain) (can also be referred to as the "net" or the "shroud"*) transmits frequencies or vibrations from the 12 pairs of cranial nerves which operate the system of seven energy centers in the body ..... when I look at the passages in the Stanzas of Dzyan I see several levels of meaning ....I just wanted to share a few thoughts and I wish you great joy on this special journey .... he hawai'i au, pohaikawahine

*"shroud" - I also believe this is connected with the inner meaning of the shroud of Jesus. The inner chamber of the brain (in Hawaiian we might refer to it as the "ahu" or an alter) covered by the shroud or "veil" is also sybolized in the wedding ceremony when the male and female energies merge (father and mother) to open the brain to revelations or visions or the "light" .... a gland called the pineal gland is located there (which I also interpret to the the place called piniel where one sees g-d face-to-face) ....

[Nick the Pilot]

Pohaika Wahine, Aloha kakahiaka kaua. You said,

"...the first part of the chant takes place in the time of "po" (darkness) and consists of seven "wa" (which can be interperted as periods of time)...."

--> Wow, that is the same as Theosophy.

"...and the next part of the chant takes place in the time of "ao" (light) which would be the creation of humanity ...."

--> I wonder, does the Hawai'ian religion take into consideration the idea of sequential universes? Is there a continuous cycle of the light disappearing and reappearing?

"Our legends also tell of the creation such as the luminious egg carried by a bird .... "

--> My belief system also refers to the beginning of the universe via the metaphor of an egg.

"...from my interpretations the "web" represents a part of our brain called the "arachnoid"...."

--> I think "web" can refer to many things on many different levels. To me, web first refers to what I call the various planes of existence (physical plane, astral plane, etc.) It seems to me the various planes of existence existed before humans existed.

"The inner chamber of the brain ... a gland called the pineal gland ... the place called piniel where one sees g-d face-to-face) ...."

--> Theosophy teaches that the pineal gland used to be the center of psychic abilities. This ability has disappeared over the centuries, and will eventually return. It sounds like we have the same idea on this topic.

[Nick the Pilot]

Hi everybody!

Pohaika Wahine's coments are well-timed, as I was just about to use the metaphor of a web:

The Universe was spun out of spirit and pre-matter. It is referred to as the spinning of a web. The Sparks (the Web) expanded and became radiant. They scattered, to eventually return to their Mother (pre-matter) at the end of the Great Day (at the end of the universe).

Spirit's flame (the Ray that was emitted) merged with coldness of pre-matter. That act created energy. This living energy linked each one of the individual points of light with the “sea” of existence.

[pohaikawahine]

aloha e nick - you asked " I wonder, does the Hawai'ian religion take into consideration the idea of sequential universes? Is there a continuous cycle of the light disappearing and reappearing?" - what I shared is not really hawai'ian religion, it is simply a way of life and understanding of our place in the universe and the creation - the inner meaning of the chant(s) and legend(s) tell us about who we are and are place in the world(s) - when you started this thread you indicated that the poem or book of dzyan is full of confusing symbolism and is difficult to read -

as far as I can tell it can be read on several levels - it the sacred meaning that you seek in reading the symbolism and other meanings within the poem - there is a link to an ancient path of wisdom shared by many cultures and religions as well as "ways of life" - I have spent over 40 years unveiling the inner meaning (some would call it the huna) of the chants and legends of hawaii and now I include other cultures , religions and/or ways of life - right now I am fully imersed in the Torah which strikes a cord deep within my soul ....

as for the idea of sequential universes, what I see is the reference to the emerald tablets which speak to "as without, so within" or some would say "as above, so below" - the sequential universe is the world that we access when we move the energy into the center of our brain (that place called pineal) and return to the source - in the chant of creation that I referred to (the Hawaiian one) is called the Kumulipo - the deep darkness, the teacher, the source - when we return to the ancient ocean (kaaumoana) we return within ourselves and that is what the poem of dzyan is also telling us - it is no accident that there are seven stanzas - seven is the completion of a cycle -

"the eternal parent wrapped in her ever invisible robes had slumbered once again for seven eternities" - the energy must cycle through the seven energy centers in the body, the knowledge lies hidden beneath the seven veils (or invisible robes), the eternal parent is always with us ..... even the Torah is referred to as a woman whose knowledge is deeply buried and one must see beneath her outer robes or meanings to know her .... the "Song of Songs" tells you how to find her (but she is elusive) .... just as the hidden meaning in the poem of dzyan is elusive ....

have you read "Initiation" by Elisabeth Haich - it will give you clues to theosophy, Chapt 39 "we will meet again" - "if you want to achieve true knowledge ... you must first learn to know yourself. You have to know what you yourself are" ..... "I know very well that I'm a woman", I reply with dignity. The stranger smiles insolently, but I continue undisturbed: 'The outer form is only the mantle of the inner being. When oneknows the inner being and when is the inner being, he uses the outer form only as an instrument but does not identify himself with it? The body is only the robe of the self. You wear clothing too, and yet you are not the clothing." She also references the twelve sets of twins (as far as I can tell a reference to the twelve pairs of cranial nerves) .... so much right in front of our eyes but we cannot see because we use the outer eyes .... the poem of dzyan tells us how to move into the darkness and begin to see with our inner eye ....

you will also enjoy the "emerald tablet" and I'm waiting for a better translation of the Voynich manuscript - the Torah also has several levels of meaning and they are beautiful as they are unveiled ..... enjoy your search .... he hawai'i au, poh

[Nick the Pilot]

Pohaika Wahine, you said,

"... there is a link to an ancient path of wisdom shared by many cultures and religions as well as "ways of life"...."

--> This is a key teaching — all religions come from the same set of original religious teachings.

"...right now I am fully imersed in the Torah which strikes a cord deep within my soul ...."

--> I have learned a great deal of similarity between the Torah, Hinduism, and Buddhism. There is a great deal of symbolism in the Zohar and Sephiroth. I am fortunate to see how they all fit together.

"...the emerald tablets which speak to "as without, so within" or some would say "as above, so below"...."

--> This is a key idea in my belief system — the idea that everything in the universe is in a state of continually unfolding.

"...the Kumulipo - the deep darkness, the teacher, the source...."

--> I like your idea that the Darkness is the same as the teacher, for this is a key teaching in my belief system.

"...when we return to the ancient ocean (kaaumoana) we return within ourselves...."

--> I agree! I would add that this ocean is the only Reality, and the rest is only an illusion.

"...the energy must cycle through the seven energy centers in the body...."

--> I agree.

"...he uses the outer form only as an instrument but does not identify himself with it? The body is only the robe of the self."

--> My belief system spends a great deal of time preparing us for the day we no longer have a physical body, an astral body, etc.

"...the poem of dzyan tells us how to move into the darkness and begin to see with our inner eye ...."

--> Christianity says we have a firmament which separates us from the Darkness, and Theosophy calls it a "wall of fire." Does your belief system have such an idea?

[pohaikawahine]

alohe e nick - you said:

--> "Christianity says we have a firmament which separates us from the Darkness, and Theosophy calls it a "wall of fire." Does your belief system have such an idea?"

there are many references to what we would call "light carriers" - ka po'e ao hiwa (the light carriers, those that tended the sacred light); kaula - a prophet, pure energy, a light carrier; kalama, the night torch, those that carry the night torch ..... it is woven into many aspects of the ancient culture ....

like many people today, hawaiians are beginning to look into the ancient ways to see what they mean to life today .... but the veils are not easy to remove from the eyes because most of the hidden meanings went underground long ago .... even now, there are many that would not agree with my interpretations, but this is what I see .... we are each the light carriers and we are each pure energy, when we wake from the deep sleep and reconnect the ancient path (system) we begin to cross over one-by-one and when we change our mind, we change our world ....

pele, the volcano goddess is not an object to worship - she is a symbol with hidden messages - her lengedary battles with kamapua'a (the boar and many other manisfestations) are all great stories (easy to remember) but the real meanings are hidden in the symbols, the sounds, the numbers, the directions .....

I don't want to detract from your original thread about the origin of the universe and the poem of dzyan .... I would love to see you unravel the various levels of meaning in the poem .... as you continue forward, I'll be happy to add a small comment here and there if it would be helpful ....

he hawai'i au, poh

[Nick the Pilot]

Pohaika Wahine, By the way, I like the Kwan Yin in your avatar. You said,

"...there are many references to what we would call "light carriers"...."

--> Actually, I was more interested in a separator between Light and Dark, rather than the Light itself.

"...the veils are not easy to remove from the eyes because most of the hidden meanings went underground long ago...."

--> This is what your and my belief systems are working towards.

"...we are each the light carriers and we are each pure energy...."

--> I like the Theosophical quote which says we are "light standing-still."

"...the real meanings are hidden in the symbols, the sounds, the numbers, the directions ....."

--> Your and my belief systems are working towards explaining all of these symbols.

"I would love to see you unravel the various levels of meaning in the poem...."

--> I will now post another slice of interpretation.

[Nick the Pilot]

The universe literally expanded. The Sparks “joyously sally[ed] forth into the universe of things”*, entering, knowing, and making them our own. Then, when the universe contracts, we will become introspective, ready to return to a state of non-activity.

We are the Sparks mentioned in the story, scattering about during the universe's present expansion into matter, ready to return to the Source at the end of the Great Day.

---

* Man, the Measure of All Things, by Prem & Ashish, p 156

[Nick the Pilot]

-- The First Fall --

It is useful to use the metaphor, “The Sparks shot out into empty space,” out into the world of materiality and separateness. They burned brightly, dazzled with the thrill of new-found freedom and individuality.

Every child must leave the nest and try out its wings. Every parent must allow their children out of the nest, so the children can have experiences, become mature, and learn to be independent. Thus, the Sparks struck out on their own, “rush[ing] out into separateness.”*

Many religions have portrayed this descent into material existence as a negative experience. It must be shown, however, that it was a perfectly natural and positive thing to do.

---

* Man, the Measure of All Things, by Prem & Ashish, p 156

[Nick the Pilot]

-- The Wall of Fire --

It has been said that some of the Sparks were not happy with their newfound freedom and challenges, and wished to return to the security of unity with spirit. This could not be allowed. A “Wall of Fire”* was erected, keeping the Sparks away from their source. This Wall is also described as a shoreless sea of fire**. It is the same wall described in Genesis as the firmament.

“And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament....” (Genesis 1:6-7)

The Theosophical description of the event is a little more emphatic.

“Behold [the Son] lifting the veil and unfurling it from east to west. He shuts out the above, and leaves the below to be seen as the Great Illusion. He marks the places for the Shining Ones, and turns the upper (space) into a shoreless sea of fire, and the One Manifested (element) into the Great Waters.”***

The Wall of Light ensured the Sparks would not return to the Oneness until they were ready.

The white brilliance of the Son hid the Absolute as Darkness. And, although the veil has been drawn and the Son shined brightly, the source of the Son was still there, in the background, unmanifested.

---

* Prem & Ashish, Man, the Measure of All Things, p 324

** Prem & Ashish, Man, the Measure of All Things, p 324

*** Blavatsky, H. P., The Secret Doctrine, Shloka i-3-7

[Nick the Pilot]

-- The Universe as a Veil--


The Sparks needed to have concrete experiences, in order to mature. Unfortunately, they were composed of pure, formless “spirit,” and needed to occupy denser “bodies” in order to have experiences. Dense material was gathered around each Spark, providing it with a denser “veil” or “body” to work within. Each Spark was unable to be conscious inside its new veil, so it put a part of itself down into its veil, “ensouling” it.

[A Spark] “... is not able to function on the lower planes of being nor in the physical world. It may only contact the lower planes by means of an upadhi (to use the technical term). Upadhi is generally given the meaning of a ‘base’ or a ‘vehicle,’ although it may also be rendered a substitute, an appearance, a disguise of the spirit, or ‘veil of spirit’ ... upadhi may be rendered that which is deposited by [a Spark] — namely the sixth principle, Buddhi.” (The Divine Plan, by Geoffrey Barborka, p. 10)

This new form is called a Monad. A Monad is a Spark that is surrounded by a veil of materiality that (1) gives it the beginnings of definition and form, yet (2) causes it to be unable to view the source from which it comes.

More and more veils were drawn around the Monad, each one providing a denser, more concrete form of reality. It was like clouds of pure consciousness that were getting thicker and thicker. Each veil provided a more concrete vehicle for experiences, yet at the same time, each veil created an increasing sense of separateness from the Monad's original spiritual reality.

From these sequential plunges into materiality and separateness, we get the two sayings, “Christ died for us,” and, “God sacrificed His Son for us.” Technically, these two statements are correct — the Universe (“Christ”) took upon itself layer upon layer of restricting levels of materiality and separateness, for the purpose of providing us with concrete experiences.

Seven layers or veils were created (each one denser than the one before it), which we refer to as Planes of Consciousness. Some of the names are familiar to us. The seventh or lowest plane is called the the Physical Plane. The sixth lowest plane is called the the Astral Plane. The fourth lowest plane is called the Buddhic Plane, and the third lowest level is called the Nirvanic Plane.

We are said to have an astral body, as well as a physical body, and even finer higher-lever “bodies.” Our Monad (“soul”) has taken on several more, denser veils, one of them being the astral body. The astral body “took on” a physical body at the beginning of our physical incarnations on Earth — a good example of one veil taking on an even denser veil. (Our goal, then, is to eventually remove all veils, and finally see the One Reality.)

[Nick the Pilot]

-- Pre-Physical Atoms --

There is another way to look at the appearing of the Sparks. Fohat (the universal energy-principle) is said to have dug “holes”* in pre-matter. These “holes” are referred to as atoms, although they are unlike any atoms of our present physical world. Perhaps it is useful to compare this to Christian terminology.

“Darkness was upon the Face of the Deep.”



“And God said let there be light.”



This was the appearance of the atom/sparks, and this was the first layer of materiality and separateness.

Groups of atoms were gathered together, each group then acting as a single atom of a lower plane of existence. Then those atoms were grouped together, each group acting as a single atom of an even lower plane of existence. Thus, a series of planes of existence appeared, each one denser than the previous, with all planes of existence interpenetrating each other.

Astral objects, then, are composed of astral atoms. Physical objects are composed of physical atoms. (Physical atoms are merely groups of astral atoms. Astral atoms are merely groups of atoms of the next higher level.)

---

* The Secret Doctrine, by H. P. Blavatsky, vol 1 p 147

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Perhaps it is useful to compare this to Christian terminology.

“Darkness was upon the Face of the Deep.”

“And God said let there be light.”
This was the appearance of the atom/sparks, and this was the first layer of materiality and separateness.

Just to point out, lest anyone draw the wrong impression, that this Theosophist interpretation of a Christian text is profoundly materialist in outlook, and by no means consonant with the orthodox Christian one.

Thomas

[I, Brian]

Well, as Theosophy is rarely classed as a mainstream part of Christianity, I would not expect a mainstream interpretation.