Theosophy: Can we agree that tormenting people for all time is wrong no matter what?

[Nick the Pilot]

Hi everybody!

I thought I would give a Theosophical response to the question. (I do not give Theosophical responses in Christian threads.)

Theosophy does not see it as God tormenting us. We cause the conditions ourslves. We have no one but to blame but ourselves. (As a matter of fact, I have just been reading a psychic person's story of his visit to one of his pre-mortem clients in Hell, to check up on him. It is a fascinating story.)

Theosophy definitely teaches that Hell happens, but not an eternal Hell. Fortunately, we see the possibility of people spending time in both Heaven and Hell between incarnations.

[ChristianMyst]

Can we agree that tormenting people for all time is wrong no matter what?

I should think that when people are done tormenting themselves and each other, this question and the reference to time will become a moot point. Man is solely responsible for himself. And, responsibility is something that Man learns over time. We weren't tormented when we got here, we learned this unque skill. As well, and in time, we shall do away with it. Futility comes to mind as the great lesson, the futility that results from the course of action of most. There have been illuminaries from all walks and faiths, beliefs and philosophies who have shown that we have [choice.] "As we sow, so shall we reap."

[Nick the Pilot]

Christian,

I know that you are a full-time psychic. Do you have contact with people on the other side of death?

[ChristianMyst]

Christian,

I know that you are a full-time psychic. Do you have contact with people on the other side of death?

A Medium, actually. A psychic does indeed sense the impressions about another, and a Medium does this as well. But they have the ability to make a connection and have a discourse. Further still, their sensitivities will pick up considerably more information as pertians to those passed over as those other Planes of Consciousness convey [more] in their efforts than would we on this physical realm. Yes I am a medium, and a psychic. Yes, I have contact with people on the othe side of death, frequently and routinely. (By the way, I like the way you correctly phrased your question.) I don't quite understand why people refer to such connections as communicating with the dead; obviously they are not dead or we would not be communicating. They may no longer have need for their physical body, but they didn't have it before they came into being on this physical world either. Whether before physical birth, during this lifetime, or after physical death, the consciousness that is us can be reached, and this is what mediumship accomplishes.

Is this question in reference to the topic concept of God tourmenting us (as if [He] could possibly be bothered in this pointless endeavor), or to the psychic story of communicating with someone in Hell? If the latter, I have to tell you it is pretty difficult at this level of our evolution of Consciousness to be naturally connected with any form of Hell. It would take considerable effort, and would prove most difficult, as the very Nature of Hell would be so very inconsistent with most humans at this stage of development. But then again, the same could be true of the very upper regions of the Heavenly Plane, but with lessor constraint. The Ring - Pass Not concept well known in Theosophy is self-evident to the Medium; we can connect as High as our own constitutions are developed to allow. Unfortunately, this is all too often that very same Mental Plane (Heavens).

The concept of Planes themselves, although graphically and literally well described in Theosophy, Hinduism, Buddhism and some other Eastern philosophies, as well as in ancient cultures, may be unknown, or without reference to many religions.

Do you have contact with people on the other side of death?

Did you need to place a Person-to-Person? Although we have no roll-over minutes, we do have some great "Guide" plans.

[Nick the Pilot]

Christian, you said,

"...(I like the way you correctly phrased your question.) I don't quite understand why people refer to such connections as communicating with the dead; obviously they are not dead or we would not be communicating."

--> It has been said some of them are more alive than we are. (I think we agree on this one.)

"They may no longer have need for their physical body, but they didn't have it before they came into being on this physical world either."

--> I think the purpose of physical life is to eventually get to the point where we no longer need a physical body. Fortunately, some people have already got to that point, or are close to it.

"Is this question in reference to the topic concept of God tourmenting us (as if [He] could possibly be bothered in this pointless endeavor), or to the psychic story of communicating with someone in Hell?"

--> It is in reference to the idea of the (non?) eternal nature of Heaven, Hell, etc. It it the Christian premise these are eternal, while it it the Theosophical premise that they are not. It seems that, if you have direct contact with such realms, you can share with us news of their (non?) eternal nature.

"It would take considerable effort, and would prove most difficult, as the very Nature of Hell would be so very inconsistent with most humans at this stage of development."

--> I suppose it would be difficult, and no doubt over-straining. I was recently reading of an Earthly psychic/medium who visited a now-dead client in Hell, and the story was fascinating.

"But then again, the same could be true of the very upper regions of the Heavenly Plane, but with lessor constraint. The Ring - Pass Not concept well known in Theosophy is self-evident to the Medium; we can connect as High as our own constitutions are developed to allow. Unfortunately, this is all too often that very same Mental Plane (Heavens)."

--> This brings up an important Theosophical concept, that there are levels above "Heaven". This, too, leads to the conclusion that "Heaven" is temporary.

"Did you need to place a Person-to-Person?"

--> Fortunately, no. I am merely snooping around for evidence of the non-eternal nature of Heaven and Hell.

People might be interested to hear you travel around the country, giving readings. Is your web-page with upcoming appearance-locations up to date?

[ChristianMyst]

--> It is in reference to the idea of the (non?) eternal nature of Heaven, Hell, etc. It it the Christian premise these are eternal, while it it the Theosophical premise that they are not. It seems that, if you have direct contact with such realms, you can share with us news of their (non?) eternal nature.

Indeed.

"But then again, the same could be true of the very upper regions of the Heavenly Plane, but with lessor constraint. The Ring - Pass Not concept well known in Theosophy is self-evident to the Medium; we can connect as High as our own constitutions are developed to allow. Unfortunately, this is all too often that very same Mental Plane (Heavens)."

--> This brings up an important Theosophical concept, that there are levels above "Heaven". This, too, leads to the conclusion that "Heaven" is temporary.

And, so it is.

I would be glad to particpate where there is interest.

I have two more tour stops this month in Ohio, then I will be taking a couple of months off to finish up two books.

[Muslimwoman]

Hi Guys

Sorry I am completely ignorant of Theosophy but your discussion caught my eye (I have never even heard a bump in the night, other than when I fall out of bed).

Just out of interest Christian, Islam speaks of the different levels of heaven and hell.

Can you post a link for your website, I would be interested to have a read.

Your discussion makes me think of something I have been considering for a while now. We do tend to put very 'human' parameters on G-d and the afterlife, therefore make mental images of this long line of souls waiting to be judged like naughty schoolchildren. Islam teaches that on the day of our judgement we will be totally aware of every good and bad deed we have done in our life. Can you imagine that amount of guilt and shame hitting you all at once Would we not punish ourselves simply through our awareness?

Sorry it is not a solid thought at the moment just something I have been considering.

Christian may I ask whether anything of heaven has been described to you in a way that you simply do not understand? I ask because Islam teaches that we could never begin to imagine G-d or heaven, so if it was described to me I am assuming I would be confused by the descriptions.

Salaam

[Nick the Pilot]

Muslimwoman, you said,

"...Islam speaks of the different levels of heaven and hell."

--> Does Islam speak of levels above Heaven and Hell?

"We do tend to put very 'human' parameters on G-d and the afterlife...."

--> Such 'human' parameters are discouraged in Theosophy.

"...mental images of this long line of souls waiting to be judged like naughty schoolchildren."

--> Theosophy teaches that any judging is instantaneous, and no one waits. However, I, too, remember having such images, back when I was a Christian. By the way, via a psychic, I was able to hear how my deceased father's Judgement went. It was a fascinating story.

"Islam teaches that on the day of our judgement we will be totally aware of every good and bad deed we have done in our life."

--> This agrees with Theosophy perfectly. More advanced souls will be aware of several lifetimes at once, and see a line of cause and effect between several lifetimes.


By the way, Theosophy teaches of multiple Judgement Days. I suppose Islam does not. (The idea of "waiting" for a Judgement Day does not occur in Theosophy.)

"Can you imagine that amount of guilt and shame hitting you all at once...."

--> Yes, I can. There is one idea I would like to add. According to Theosophy, other ideas of good and bad may be added during Judgement.

"Would we not punish ourselves simply through our awareness?"

--> According to Theosophy, we judge ourselves. Therefore, what you have described is more in line with a Theosophical Judgement.

"Sorry it is not a solid thought at the moment just something I have been considering."

--> I am glad to see you are starting to consider such things. I have been considering such things for decades.

"...we could never begin to imagine G-d or heaven...."

--> Theosophy certainly agrees with the first part of this statement. By the way, why do you say G-d instead of God?

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

--> Does Islam speak of levels above Heaven and Hell?

Hi Nick

Yes above the levels of heaven is the level(s) where Allah Himself exists.

There is much debate about the number of levels in heaven, many say it is 7 but others talk of the levels within levels - so we don't really know the number. The highest level is for the pure (Prophets (pbut), the truely righteous, etc) and that level is the nearest to the level(s) of Allah.

What do you believe 'is' the level(s) above heaven and hell? What exists there?

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

--> Theosophy teaches that any judging is instantaneous, and no one waits.

Sorry I was very tired when I posted last night so may not have put my thoughts across very clearly.

As a Muslim I believe that when I die the angels will come to take my soul, at the moment of death. My soul will be questioned about my faith and my deeds during my life. My soul will then be taken by the angels to the lowest level of heaven (the gates/entryway). Now comes the first worrying part, if I have been bad I will not be allowed to pass into heaven and Allah will command the angels to take my book of deeds to the 'lowest of the low' (the depths of hell). If I have been good, inshallah, I will travel through the levels of heaven, to the level I have attained, with the angels and Allah will command the angels to take my book of deeds to 'heaven'. So I will know the fate of my soul straight after I die. My soul will then be returned to earth to await the Day of Resurrection.

Here it becomes a little necessary for guesswork - we know that our punishment for sins begins in the grave, as the bad are taken to look at hell every morning and night (sort of a 'look what's coming' visit). So there are two levels of punisment - torment in the grave and then punishment in hell. It was the torment in the grave I was wondering about - whether this punishment is self inflicted by the guilt of being made aware of our every sin.

Islam teaches that some will be punished for a period of time and then allowed into heaven. It is a confusing topic because in the Quran Allah says some will reside in hell for eternity, yet in other places He speaks of his absolute forgiveness. There is also the question of whether the human concept of eternity is the same as G-d's concept of eternity. So I tend not to even try guessing about this one, I just trust Allah.

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

--> This agrees with Theosophy perfectly. More advanced souls will be aware of several lifetimes at once, and see a line of cause and effect between several lifetimes.

We do not believe in reincarnation, as our souls will be reunited with our bodies on the Day of Resurrection. So if we have many lifetimes which body would our soul inhabit?

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

By the way, Theosophy teaches of multiple Judgement Days. I suppose Islam does not. (The idea of "waiting" for a Judgement Day does not occur in Theosophy.)

I tend to refer to it as Judgement Day on CR because it is a concept everyone understands. The Arabic is actually 'Yawm al-Qiyamah' meaning 'Day of Resurrection'. So there is a difference, some make the mistake of thinking of the long line of people all waiting to be judged but that is not right imo. It is a day when G-d will resurrect every soul, who will already know their fate and on that day we will either be permitted to enter paradise or thrown into hell. The time in the grave could certainly be interpreted as a complete time of judgement.

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

--> Yes, I can. There is one idea I would like to add. According to Theosophy, other ideas of good and bad may be added during Judgement.

Could you expand on this please. Do you mean our ideas of what is good and bad will be corrected?

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

--> According to Theosophy, we judge ourselves. Therefore, what you have described is more in line with a Theosophical Judgement.

But surely if we are entirely left to judge ourselves then the arrogant and evil would judge themselves to be innocent. I assume there is more to it than that?

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

--> Theosophy certainly agrees with the first part of this statement. By the way, why do you say G-d instead of God?

Good question, one I have asked myself. I think it simply comes from interfaith discussion and respect for others beliefs, as I will type Allah but not G-d.

Salaam

[ChristianMyst]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Hi Guys

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Christian may I ask whether anything of heaven has been described to you in a way that you simply do not understand? I ask because Islam teaches that we could never begin to imagine G-d or heaven, so if it was described to me I am assuming I would be confused by the descriptions.

Salaam

Hey, ...

I can try and give you a tiny peek of what a trained psychic clairvoyant medium might experience, at first:

I should think it would be considerably difficult for an untrained or inexperienced person to stumble into the Heavenly locale, (in the bottom part of what Theosophists refer to as the Mental Plane and Devachaun) and actually get something. When the brain can't relate in some way, it will either provide nothing or draw some silly analogy.

Practicing Mediums could not traverse the Planes in the first place without a considerable imagination and intuition as well. Both are necessary and need to be well practiced for one's brain to begin giving the information the senses impressed on the Aura in close to a raw form.

Proficiency automatically entails receiving impressions in more than sentence, or an image. Varied sounds will come across with qualities about the sound that is itself intelligent information. Images can be received from any or all angles, and the mind will need to be trained to capture things almost like "bits" in today's complicated graphics. The sizes, distances, locations, actions, colors, attributes like taste sound temperature and feeling would come along with those bits. Although we would not necessarily recognize what is initially perceived, we can start putting it together by the many attributes.

The Mental Plane itself has limited form to reference to begin with, but of its seven kingdoms or sub-levels, those pertaining to the religions of the world, their varied heavens, have the most form. Since form is manifested, we will relate to the manifested forms of our religions. We will see people over there, for we can make out enough of the form to know you are seeing a person, but they will be floating and have no feet. They sort of blurr out. This is in reference to those more material looking levels, the Heavens of the Mental Plane. Life there has very many groupings, and within these people seem to be in their own world. In lectures I give everybody a bottle of children's soap bubbles and a bubble thingy, and tell them to blow. When the room is filled with translucent iridescent bubbles I say, those spheres are what you are going to see in heaven. (Again, the lowest parts.) People of like grades, as well as like interests will group into certain spheres. Those of a particular grade can enter other spheres of interest if those are of the proper grade. Everyone in heaven is NOT at the same level, so there is a kind of grading that limits their access to certain spheres. Spheres can relate to interests, like music or writing or beliefs.

With practice, and again using both imagination and intuition to “allow” impressions you are not used to, you can take on perceptions that would not seem the normal presentation from a physical world sense. We have laws of science here, these are not existent in Heaven(s). For example, you could suddenly see someone’s face alone, that fills up your field of vision, … or just as well, a “light” but with so very many facets and qualities that you know exactly who it represents, what their lives were about, how the understand their circumstance and what their interests are.

There are some characteristics, though. I already mentioned the spheres. And movement and direction is a choice. White is a significant color, but in actuality it is arrays of hues of paler but pure looking colors that seem without number. Things appear white until you dwell on something and take it in – your mind will begin “creating” a visual reference point since the colors may not exist in our spectrum. Recall too that I inferred there is a great deal of dimension to things above our realm. This is not just a visual comment. All senses have extraordinary, but still limited range. Because of these things, such a sojourn is an ongoing growing experience. Your perceptions grown and enhance with exposure to the higher realms. Shades of blue as well as purples exist in extreme quantizes as well. So, although the difference are subtle, the variation and thus meaning, is extraordinary.

OK. I’m going to start boring you. I guess this gives some pertainent response to your question.

Imagination is a quality expressed by those in these Higher realms too, it is not just a requirement of us the viewer. You will see all sorts of things taking place, for example, an idea that someone has of something they want to paint. There is an appreciable amount of development of talents along the genius class so you will note much about the arts, music, architecture, engineering, math, occurring in their respective spheres.

Christian Myst

[Nick the Pilot]

Muslimwoman, I see that Christian has beaten me to the punch, but please allow me to answer specific questions.

"...above the levels of heaven is the level(s) where Allah Himself exists."

--> It seems that Theosophy and Islam agree on this point.

"There is much debate about the number of levels in heaven, many say it is 7 but others talk of the levels within levels - so we don't really know the number."

--> We need to define terms. Heaven (according to Theosophy) is a series of levels occupied by humans between incarnations. (I now know that Islam does not teach the idea of reincarnation.) As Christian has indicated, Theosophy teaches there are seven astral levels, above which there are are seven mental levels. (Theosophy teaches of a "second death", the death of the astral body, but this take us off-topic.)

"The highest level is for the pure (Prophets (pbut), the truely righteous, etc) and that level is the nearest to the level(s) of Allah."

--> This seems to be similar to the highest Theosophical Heaven. In Theosophy, however, the highest level of Heaven is nowhere even close to being near the Theosophical equivalent of "the level(s) of Allah." For instance, stars are considered to be Beings of consciousness, at a level much higher than human Heaven.

"What do you believe 'is' the level(s) above heaven and hell?"

--> The Theosophical flowchart of planes of consciousness is quite complicated. Here are some graphics I threw together a while back.

































Please note that there are probably other levels that we are unaware of.

"What exists there?"

--> This question would take volumes to answer, partly because of the number of levels.

"...I will not be allowed to pass into heaven...."

--> Theosophy teaches the idea of reincarnation, so the Theosophical view of what happens is quite different.

"My soul will then be returned to earth to await the Day of Resurrection."

--> In Theosophy, the "soul" also returns, but is very busy, while your belief system seems to think the soul does nothing during this time.

"Here it becomes a little necessary for guesswork - we know that our punishment for sins begins in the grave, as the bad are taken to look at hell every morning and night (sort of a 'look what's coming' visit)."

--> Theosophy view the process entirely different. I guess we can just agree to disagree.

"It was the torment in the grave I was wondering about - whether this punishment is self inflicted by the guilt of being made aware of our every sin."

--> Such a situation as you have described does not happen (according to Theosophy). Therefore, according to Theosophy, there is no need to worry about such a thing.

"Islam teaches that some will be punished for a period of time and then allowed into heaven."

--> To some extent, Theosophy agrees.

"It is a confusing topic because in the Quran Allah says some will reside in hell for eternity, yet in other places He speaks of his absolute forgiveness."

--> Fortunately, no such confusion exists in Theosophy.

"There is also the question of whether the human concept of eternity is the same as G-d's concept of eternity."

--> I think we have covered this in another thread. The Abrahamic concept of eternity does not exist in Theosophy.

"...as our souls will be reunited with our bodies on the Day of Resurrection."

--> Theosophy does not teach such an idea.

"So if we have many lifetimes which body would our soul inhabit?"

--> Such a question is irrelevant in Theosophy, as human bodies are not reunited with human souls in Heaven.

"The Arabic is actually 'Yawm al-Qiyamah' meaning 'Day of Resurrection'."

--> The concept of Resurrection does not exist in Theosophy.

"The time in the grave could certainly be interpreted as a complete time of judgement."

--> I am glad to see that Islam has an inkling of the idea of multiple Judgement days.

"Do you mean our ideas of what is good and bad will be corrected? [on Jdgement Day]"

--> I was not clear. Many religions teach the idea that what we believe (whether we believe in Jesus, Allah, etc.) will be used as criteria to get into Heaven. (I am quite familiar with the Christian idea that refusing to accept Jesus is an automatic one-way ticket to Hell, but I do not know about Islam.) According to Theosophy, such a question is not even asked on Judgement Day. To some people this comes as a surprise, and this is what I was originally referring to.


I would also like to touch on the Islamic idea that dying for "the cause" is an automatic one-way ticket to Heaven. (I assume I have the correct interpretation of the Islamic teaching.) Theosophy teaches that it does not happen. I have information regarding Mr. Atta, who was the leader of the Sept. 11 hijacking in America. Ya know, he really thought he was going to Heaven for what he did. He did not, he was punished for what he did. The sad thing is, he never saw it coming, and when the final decision was "announced", he was completely taken by surprise.

"But surely if we are entirely left to judge ourselves then the arrogant and evil would judge themselves to be innocent."

--> We judge ourselves, but it is our Higher Self which judges the lower, human self. Do not worry, no injustice occurs on Judgement Day, not one iota. (This gets us into the topic of divine forgiveness, which is an entirely different question.

"I think it simply comes from interfaith discussion and respect for others beliefs, as I will type Allah but not G-d."

--> I am continually amazed by things that are done in the name of religion.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by ChristianMyst

The Mental Plane itself has limited form to reference to begin with, but of its seven kingdoms or sub-levels, those pertaining to the religions of the world, their varied heavens, have the most form. Since form is manifested, we will relate to the manifested forms of our religions.

as salaam aleykum Christian

Thank you so much for your detailed reply and don't worry it takes much more than that to bore me.

Some questions if I may. Relationships in the afterlife are of interest to me. I assume from what you have said that you believe we connect to the people we know and love in this life? So how would that work for someone like me - my interest is obviously Islam but my family are not interested. Would I still see them in heaven or will I be limite to the people who share my sphere?

Do you think our human emotions change in the next life? Would we still be jealous or get angry? I am thinking along the lines of a happily married couple and one spouse dies, the remaining spouse remarries and has a happy life with that new person. What happens in the afterlife, in this life we can clearly love more than one person but we also get jealous. How do you believe we would share our time in heaven?

Originally Posted by ChristianMyst

We will see people over there, for we can make out enough of the form to know you are seeing a person, but they will be floating and have no feet. They sort of blurr out.

Do you believe the people in the next life are 'healed' (eg if they have been sick or have died at a very old age? Islam suggests that when we are resurrected we are made young and whole again.

Originally Posted by ChristianMyst

Everyone in heaven is NOT at the same level, so there is a kind of grading that limits their access to certain spheres. Spheres can relate to interests, like music or writing or beliefs.

This is certainly in line with Islamic teaching but we believe we are 'graded' by our good deeds rather than by interests.

Originally Posted by ChristianMyst

There is an appreciable amount of development of talents along the genius class so you will note much about the arts, music, architecture, engineering, math, occurring in their respective spheres.

Oops, I have no ability with art, music, architecture, etc - is there a 'simplicity' sphere where people are not creative or overly clever? Would that be the housework sphere? Oh no, an eternity of ironing (although compared to the alternative 'hot place' ....... point me at the ironing board).

Salaam

Sorry had to make the font bigger, my eyes are not what they used to be and I refuse to wear my glasses.

[Nick the Pilot]

Muslimwoman, allow me to "jump in" with some answers.

"Would I still see them in heaven or will I be limite to the people who share my sphere?"

--> I am sure no such limitations happen in Heaven.

"What happens in the afterlife, in this life we can clearly love more than one person but we also get jealous. How do you believe we would share our time in heaven?"

--> According to Theosophy, all negativity has been burned off before a person can enter Heaven. Such things as jealousy cannot happen in Heaven. Heaven will be heavenly.

"Do you believe the people in the next life are 'healed' (eg if they have been sick or have died at a very old age? Islam suggests that when we are resurrected we are made young and whole again."

--> Your use of the phrase "in the next life" is slightly confusing, because Theosophists would usually use such a phrase to refer to another human, physical reincarnation. I assume you mean time to be spent in Heaven. According to Theosophy, no such things such as illness and old age are possible in Heaven. (As I stated before, having a physical body in Heaven is impossible, according to Theosophy.)

"...I have no ability with art, music, architecture, etc - is there a 'simplicity' sphere where people are not creative or overly clever?"

--> Heaven will be a place where we indulge in whatever is the highest activity for us. It has been said that, for the average (non-artistic) person, Heaven will just be (1) a place of green grass, pastures, rainbows (whatever that person hoped for on Earth), (2) being surrounded by our friends and loved ones, (3) doing the things we love to do, or were unable to do on Earth. (One fellow is said to have spent his entire Heaven-time putting in the most beautuful flower garden in front of his house. Hey, if that is what Heaven is for you, go for it!

[Varied levels in Heaven] "...is certainly in line with Islamic teaching but we believe we are 'graded' by our good deeds rather than by interests."

--> Think of it like this. There is a kind of "specific gravity" in Heaven. Everybody has a basic level of spiritual advancement. Everyone "floats" up or down, and finds their basic level.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Muslimwoman, I see that Christian has beaten me to the punch, but please allow me to answer specific questions.

Hi Nick

Thank you for your replies, I am sorry we must have posted at the same time, as I did not see your prior post.

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Theosophy teaches there are seven astral levels, above which there are are seven mental levels. (Theosophy teaches of a "second death", the death of the astral body, but this take us off-topic.)

What is the difference between astral and mental in Theosophy?

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

For instance, stars are considered to be Beings of consciousness, at a level much higher than human Heaven.

The Quran speaks of the 'universes' - ie plural, so we have no idea what exists outside our own 'knowledge', so there could be a miriad of levels not even hinted at.
Great flow chart by the way. I was surprised to see the last level referred to Jehovah, yet no level for the rest of us. Where do we all fit in?

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

--> In Theosophy, the "soul" also returns, but is very busy, while your belief system seems to think the soul does nothing during this time.

Gosh would hardly call going through the tourment of Judgement 'nothing' So what do you believe the soul does during this time?

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

--> Fortunately, no such confusion exists in Theosophy.

It may not for most Muslims, perhaps it is just me because I can't accept this 'only our gang' gets to go thing.

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

(I am quite familiar with the Christian idea that refusing to accept Jesus is an automatic one-way ticket to Hell, but I do not know about Islam.)

Yes I am afraid Islam is very big on the 'you have to be in our gang or burn in hell' thing. There is however a minority of Muslims that read the Quran differently, not without good reason, I am in that 'gang'.

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

I would also like to touch on the Islamic idea that dying for "the cause" is an automatic one-way ticket to Heaven

Oh no please don't think that, it is a common misconception about Islam. You mention a terrorist hijacker - no way was he ever going to heaven according to the Quran.

The short version so I don't bore you. Islam only allows defensive war (so against an attacker or against an oppressor/tyrant) fullstop, that is it, no if's or but's. You can only fight those fighting you, so is it forbidden to kill any civilian. Jihad can only be declared by the Islamic State - we don't have a single Islamic State so Jihad cannot be called these days, there is no Caiphate to call it. So those that would attain the highest level would be those that die defending the Muslim nation, in a valid defensive war and had only killed attackers. Islam does not even allow us to hurt a tree during a battle (honestly it is in the teachings). I can show you so many Islamic scholars that would confirm that. Those that teach suicide attacks are doing so for political reasons and will have to answer for their corrupt teachings when the time comes. Those that commit these awful crimes will have to answer for their actions, even if they have been taught the wrong thing they will be questioned about where in the Quran such a thing is allowed and obviously it is not so they are going to have trouble answering. Islam even teaches that prisoners of war must be well looked after, in the time of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) he would allow prisoners to go free if they would teach 10 Muslims to read and write.

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Do not worry, no injustice occurs on Judgement Day, not one iota.

This we agree on.

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

--> I am continually amazed by things that are done in the name of religion.

I am constantly saddened by it and believe that Allah will be too.

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

--> According to Theosophy, all negativity has been burned off before a person can enter Heaven. Such things as jealousy cannot happen in Heaven. Heaven will be heavenly.

Islam teaches the same thing.

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

One fellow is said to have spent his entire Heaven-time putting in the most beautuful flower garden in front of his house. Hey, if that is what Heaven is for you, go for it!

Can I put my name down for the gardening gang please, next to a mosque would be nice. Wow I could grow thousands of fuschia's and have a vegetable patch - yep that would be heaven for me. Doesn't take much to keep me happy.

Very interesting to learn about your beliefs, thanks for taking the time.

Salaam

[ChristianMyst]

MuslimWomen. Warm welcome.

You are too kind to indulge us with such meaningful and intelligent questions.

I am pleased that there are ample answers which speak to both the particular mediumistic observations of the Heavenly realms, and those of Theosophy:

Although much of what is believed in other religions is manifest in Heaven, at least at the lower regions of it, I find that the Theosophical philosophies more precisely validate that which I have experienced.

Such would be particularly true in the structures of both the Astral and the Mental Planes’ respective seven(7) sublevels, and the processes that occur, which are as well observable.

It may be for this reason partially that Theosophy has no agenda to sway one away from their formal Religion in favor of our philosophical science/religion/philosophy solely. Theosophy encompasses very much of the fundamental elements of formalize religions, but not all, of course, and more specifically the earliest religious concepts before time, politics, ego, control and other factors were allowed some very real influence on Religious doctrine.

Therefore, Theosophy sees the fundamental or founding beliefs of many, if not all religions, to be a subset of its broader spiritual perspective. This is not meant to mean Theosophy is better, something rather subjective