Theosophy: Can we agree that tormenting people for all time is wrong no matter what?

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

Oh my... Sorry to butt in here, but you made me laugh!

It is not something I know anything about.

[bob x]

Christians have tried to kill me, twice. Nobody else has ever tried to kill me (not even Muslims!)

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

Christians have tried to kill me, twice. Nobody else has ever tried to kill me (not even Muslims!)

Did they try to kill you because of their religious beliefs or they were nutcases that happened to be Christian?

[bob x]

The Book tells them they should. Your Book says the same.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

The Book tells them they should. Your Book says the same.

Utterly and absolutely untrue regarding the Quran (I don't know about the Bible on that subject).

[Thomas]

Ditto Scripture ...

Thomas

[Nick the Pilot]

Muslimwoman, you asked,

"So would Theosophy suggest a past life is why I feel so comfortable and 'at home' in Egypt? (although the language is not coming easily)."

--> Definitely. Whenever I hear of someone attracted to a particular place or time in history, I always say to myself, "I know what they were doing last time." I think it would be fascinating to get a past-life regression on you, and hear about your past-life in Egypt.


As a matter of fact, learning Japanese was one of the most difficult things I have ever done. (Japanese grammar is backwards from English.) Once I learned it, however, I made progress that can only be explained by past-life experience in Japan. (These are not the same brain-cells I had in my past-life in Japan, and it makes a big difference.)

"Sorry but why would a non Christian have to defend themselves against Christians? Do you just mean the 'you are going to hell' bit?"

--> Yes. Christians think that their faith gives them the right to terrorize non-Christians. I would say that, several times a year, someone's house or business is burned down in the world merely because they are Christian. And, you have no idea how many times I have personally listened to stories of Christians harrassing non-Christians.

Have you seen the movie Inherit the Wind? This is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

Inherit the Wind - Movie Review and Sounds

This film is a must-see movie for everyone interested in comparative religions. I think it is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

"I would say fight bigotry wherever you find it. By keping such things secret we are encouraging the bigotry imo."

--> It is a two-edged sword. Some people say we should not fight hate with hate. One of my favorite Buddhist quotes is, "Some people receive injury, but return kindness." Many Buddhists say we should act this way, when we receive hatefullness from Christians. Sometimes, I counsel people to cut obnoxious Christian relatives out of their life. (Just recently, I heard from a young adult who had been thrown out into the street by her parents because she refused to remain a Christian.) I always counsel such people to walk away, avoid hating in return, and never look back.

"What you call the Absolute I call Allah and we agree about how much we know of Him."

--> No, this is a common misconception. Allah is the Creator (The "Son"), and is different than the Absolute. The word Darkness is used in Genesis in the Bible to symbolize the Absolute (although I do not know about such symbology in the Quran).

"I have been sharing our discussion with my mother and we have decided she is a Theosophist, although she has never heard the term. Her beliefs are so in line with what you are sharing with me."

--> That is great to hear. Perhaps she can post a comment or two here on the Forum? I can also suggest several online books, if she is so interested. Here is a nice, short, beginning book called At the Feet of the Master.

(Online)
Modern Theosophy: At The Feet of the Master, Alcyone

(Hardcopy)


Quest Books

"Utterly and absolutely untrue regarding the Quran...."

--> Does the Quran say infidels should be killed?

[AndrewX]

I dunno about killing ... but the persecutions and oppression, which have gone on for hundreds (or rather, thousands) of years in the name of religion and of a wrathful `god' ... such would certainly qualify as torment, I'd say.

It doesn't really matter what we're trying to scapegoat another person, or people for - in this case, the choice of a homosexual lifestyle, harming none - there is no justification for the persecution and oppression which people somehow think their god desires from them.

I shudder, and I cringe, to think of the rude awakening that plenty of folks are in for, when they discover that ... this was not quite what `God' was expecting of them, or hoping to see, once they `got religion,' or discovered their spiritual calling, or whatever.

It's the same kind of sick, delusional reasoning (actually, lack thereof), which makes a Muslim extremist believe that Allah is going to reward him with x number of virgins for y number of infidels delivered to Allah's doorstep via pure murder. Fanaticism leaves little room for cool-headedness ...

And I know that's not how you'd prefer people to understand the meaning of jihad, Muslimwoman ... thus I know that if I claimed Christianity as my faith, I'd be equally outraged to see how some people have similarly taken a few Biblical passages, here & there, which suit them - and instead of seeking to follow in the Master's footsteps, have just used another Holy Book to justify their hate, fear, paranoia and sense of separativeness.

This is not Christianity, this is not Islam, and it is certainly not what is taught by Theosophy.

As has been pointed out, Theosophy teaches, on a firm foundation (based upon direct observation, rather than speculation), that those who insist on ignoring the dictates of their own Conscience (the Voice of the Higher Self, or Soul), must face up with the consequences - according to the Law of Sowing and Reaping (Karma) ... not so much just in an afterlife, but also in their own subsequent lifetime(s), until the originating cause of their misery is balanced, and the appropriates lessons [have been] learned.

The Master of Masters taught this [Doctrine of Rebirth, and of Cause & Effect] when He walked upon the Earth, though it is admitted that His doctrines were altered - and misrepresented - even before His original 3-yr Ministry was abruptly and prematurely ended. The people would not hear Him then, just as many will not hear Him now.

[Nick the Pilot]

"Ditto Scripture ..."

--> It does not matter what Scripture says. These things are happening, and that is all that matters.

There is a concept called group karma. Unfortunately, all Christians will have to suffer bad karma due to what these Christian mainiacs are doing. The sad thing is, most Christians do not even see it coming. Their inaction will haunt them in the end.

[Nick the Pilot]

Andrew, you said,

"...there is no justification for the persecution and oppression which people somehow think their god desires from them."

--> The funny thing is, they will reap what they sew. I am quite sure people who persecute will be reborn as people who are persecuted. That is fair, isn't it?

[Thomas]

Hi all -

I have determined not get involved in issues other than direct questions on Christian (specifically Catholic) doctrine, but as the framing of the question itself indicates a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of said doctrine, I thought I'd drop in with a more concise view.

I am not offering a critique of Theosophy or any other belief system, rather this is addressed to those who might assume something of Christian doctrine, based on an erroroneous presentation.

And it is a common assumption that within the Christian paradigm, suffering is visited on man by God as some order of punishment, and an uninstructed reading of Scripture would seem to indicate as much ... however the assumption that every and any intellect can fathom the meaning let alone the depths of Scripture unaided is itself an error often overlooked.

That being said, Scripture should be approached from the insight of the over-arching hermeneutic, from the perspective of a treaditionbal commentary, as what is often overlooked is that the tradition predates the Scripture, not the other way round.

+++

One appraoch to this question from a Christian perspective, is the understanding that God is Absolute, and therefore absolutely free, that is under no limitation nor constraint, no containment nor condition, is subject to no prior nor anterior determination.

Man, having been made in the divine image (cf Genesis 1:26, 2:7), is also free, and although his freedom is not absolute, but according to the limitation of his nature (man is not God); man is the manifestation of contingent being (a logoi of the Logos), able to partake in the Absolute by grace, according to the doctrine called theosis or divinisation.

+++

it is this aspect of 'absoluteness' that provides the solution to a problem. Simply put:
God is free (infinite and unlimited)
Man is free (within the limitations of finitude)

Man is free in the sense that although created, and thus subsistent, he is not obliged to acknowledge his Creator. This, in fact, is the ontology of 'freedom' and the only metaphysically real 'freedom' that man possesses — to acknowledge or deny his nature and his creatureliness.

+++

God, being Absolute, transcends the created and cosmological order, 'eternal' does not so much mean timeless, as outside or beyond time altogether (and similarly space, and thus all cosmological determination).

The beatific vision, or the Christian idea of heaven, is also thereby timeless and metacosmic — great error ensues when people assume that what Christianity means by the term heaven is the same as what a Daoist or a Buddhist or, in the current context, what a Theosophist, means by the term.

Likewise in Christian terms the notion of 'freedom' lies in the ability to accept or deny God, or in other terms the ability to accept or deny the Real, the True, etc.

For this reason, if Christian freedom lies ontologically in the Absolute, then there must necessarily be an ontological dimension of resistence, the free will to choose that which is other than the Real, the True, the Good, and so on.

The notion of an eternal hell then, of eternal suffering, is nothing other than the notion of separation from the Real, the True and and Good, or in other words a separation from the Absolute, and as such must allow for a dimension of such a separation absolutely if it is to be a complete metaphysical expression of the Christian paradigm — if not then truth becomes conditional, and the whole thing is inverted.

The idea of an 'eternal punishment' is therefore 'natural' and coherent according to the idea of a Deity who is Absolute, and thereby 'consistent' and 'unchanging' — in God justice is neither blind nor chance, but ordered precisely and infallibly according to the Real, the True and the Good.

This idea of Divine Justice is tempered by the idea of Divine Mercy, which is itself founded in the Absolute Freedom of God.

The Christian then, trusts in God's justice, and has faith in God's mercy, and hopes thereby that not one soul be lost.

Thomas

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by Thomas

however the assumption that every and any intellect can fathom the meaning let alone the depths of Scripture unaided is itself an error often overlooked.

Let's not forget, however, that it is an assumption, and many of us believe an incorrect & unfounded assumption, to say that INTELLECT is mankind's greatest, or crowning FACULTY of consciousness. In other words, there are faculties of awareness beyond the mind, for those patient enough, and willing enough, to develop them ...

The Catholic Church may not officially teach or admit anything like the Buddhi of Theosophy, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. ... yet there are clear and obvious reasons why this is so. How would it do, after all, for the authorities to have to accept that indeed, the common man CAN gain insight, DIRECTLY, into the nature of God, into the deepest meanings of Scripture, and into the true state of his own Soul?

Why, then we might actually be able to tend to the matter of our own Salvation ... WITHOUT the Church!

No no no - I can't see the least potential for conflict of interest there!!! No way at all this could become political, or lead to things like SUPPRESSION of Truth!

Ah well, no wonder the true Gnostics have been persecuted so much (tormented, I should say!) down through the ages ... and no wonder certain of us here must feel obliged, at every opportunity, to pass judgment on those pseudo-gnostics, and psuedo-esoterists of every ilk - SAVE, of couse, THE CATHOLIC.

~-~-~-~

Penetrate behind what the Church would prefer that you did not know, and you will begin to see even an objective basis for why doing unto another REALLY SHOULD be just as you would have him do unto you.

What goes around, comes around. You do it to him, he WILL "do it" unto you. Pretty much that simple.

It's just that Christian theology cannot help but insert an imaginary God-figure in there, where none need exist ... indeed, where none DOES exist.


Let us remember the witty saying of Voltaire, which of course, in itself, proves nothing:

If God created us in his own image, we have more than reciprocated.

And which one of God's ten fingers and toes will twitch, as he compels one or two of here to compose a response?

I assure you, no scholarly learning from any University, will provide an answer.

[Thomas]

Hi Andrew —

Originally Posted by AndrewX

How would it do, after all, for the authorities to have to accept that indeed, the common man CAN gain insight, DIRECTLY, into the nature of God, into the deepest meanings of Scripture, and into the true state of his own Soul?

I have not said it is not possible, I have simply stated that just because one can read, does not thereby imply one understands fully what one has read.

As a matter of fact, in the Christian paradigm, Scripture is not just words on the page, but a form of sacrament in itself, a prayerful reading engages one in a dialogue with the Logos, which we call lectio divina ... at which point one moves beyond the boundaries of intellectual comprehension, what is made known then rests on what God chooses to unveil to the eye of the soul, and what God chooses to remain veiled.

Originally Posted by AndrewX

Why, then we might actually be able to tend to the matter of our own Salvation ... WITHOUT the Church!

Well as is evident, man has many and diverse ideas as to what comprises 'salvation' ... the Church is just one of them.

Originally Posted by AndrewX

Ah well, no wonder the true Gnostics have been persecuted so much (tormented, I should say!) down through the ages ... and no wonder certain of us here must feel obliged, at every opportunity, to pass judgment on those pseudo-gnostics, and psuedo-esoterists of
every ilk - SAVE, of couse, THE CATHOLIC.

Please, Andrew, I specifically said I am speaking from the Christian perspective, and am not passing judgement or making opinions on any other tradition, nor have I engaged in a critique of Theosophic doctrine presented in this thread. I have simply put a view from within a Christian paradigm if you will, purely for the sake of balance (the question having arisen in reference to Christianity), with regard to a point of Christian doctrine.

Your anti-Catholic feeling has been well advertised on this forum, but I did consider my post in the light of not causing offence. I would be obliged if you could do the same.

Originally Posted by AndrewX

... and you will begin to see even an objective basis for why doing unto another REALLY SHOULD be just as you would have him do unto you.

If that were the case, please do me the service of not impuning my religion ... I have not impuned yours.

Originally Posted by AndrewX

It's just that Christian theology cannot help but insert an imaginary God-figure in there, where none need exist ... indeed, where none DOES exist.

Again, as I said at the outset, I am speaking from a Christian paradigm, in which the existence of God is axiomatic ... indeed, the Abrahamic traditions would be a nonsense were this not so.

If you do not believe in God, then that is your freedom so to do, but I am equally free to believe. Live and let live, as the saying goes, or do unto others, as you yourself have said ... please do not hound or abuse me for my beliefs ...

Originally Posted by AndrewX

Let us remember the witty saying of Voltaire, which of course, in itself, proves nothing:

If God created us in his own image, we have more than reciprocated.

And which one of God's ten fingers and toes will twitch, as he compels one or two of here to compose a response?

I assure you, no scholarly learning from any University, will provide an answer.

Again ... please ... abuse and insult gets us nowhere.

Thomas

[Nick the Pilot]

Thomas, you said,

"And it is a common assumption that within the Christian paradigm, suffering is visited on man by God as some order of punishment...."

--> Clearly, this is what I assume, after reading Genesis 3:16.

"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

--> I suppose we could argure the difference between punishment and sorrow, but I think it is not necessary.

"And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life...." (Genesis 3:17)

--> Technically, man was not cursed, only the ground he walks on. (I do not see a difference.)

"...an uninstructed reading of Scripture would seem to indicate as much...."

--> How would you instruct the reading of Genesis 3:16-17? Are you instructing us that suffering is not visited on man by God as some order of punishment?

[Nick the Pilot]

"I have not impuned yours."

--> Why, it seems like only yesterday you called Blavatsky a liar, and insinuated that Theosophy is nothing but a pack of lies. Clearly, you dance the dance of impuners.

You can trick Andrew into losing debates by getting him mad and losing focus. Such techniques do not work with me.

"I specifically said I am speaking from the Christian perspective...."

--> This is the value of this Forum. Christianity sees Hell as eternal, while Theosophy sees it as temporary. It is for each reader to listen to both sides of the story, and make their own decision.