Theosophy: Can we agree that tormenting people for all time is wrong no matter what?

[ChristianMyst]

Do you think our human emotions change in the next life? Would we still be jealous or get angry? I am thinking along the lines of a happily married couple and one spouse dies, the remaining spouse remarries and has a happy life with that new person. What happens in the afterlife, in this life we can clearly love more than one person but we also get jealous. How do you believe we would share our time in heaven?

We may have some human emotions on the Astral, but these will have to be discarded in time, except for genuine affection; something that may relate to a very few. Desires in general are discarded. As is any material attachment. These cannot be carried into Heaven. Our appreciation for each other’s “spirit” is what we seek, not our bodies and experiences. We develop genuine and actual compassion, something that is only a nuance here on Earth. To answer your question, there will not be concern if a living spouse remarries. In fact, it is their happiness one on the other will soon be most concerned with, not something that no longer exists in the physical. You may need to be aware that we all do have a connection in these other Planes even now, while we are in the physical. We can and do visit at night when our physical bodies sleep. Some of us sleep as well on the other side, but many who are enlightened somewhat continue relationships with those we once knew. In time, though, these relations “grow,” and they may not be what we call marriage, or parenting any longer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChristianMyst
We will see people over there, for we can make out enough of the form to know you are seeing a person, but they will be floating and have no feet. They sort of blurr out.




Do you believe the people in the next life are 'healed' (eg if they have been sick or have died at a very old age? Islam suggests that when we are resurrected we are made young and whole again.

Of course. We no longer have a physical body. We are in our Astral Body (something that can be seen in the physical world with a little training.) It is not material, and therefore has not the breakdown and illness that we know on Earth. It is still of “matter” to some degree, but of a matter finer than we could know on Earth. It is not subject to the breakdowns we call illness or age.

We give up that Astral body in time, as well, however. But, not due to illness. Because we no longer belong in the Astral Plane. We die there and then enter Heaven through a process I won’t go into here. Form is quite minimal at first, and later on, of no meaning. We appear more as light once we are really settled in to Heaven. Now, everyone doesn’t accomplish this all at once. Sometimes it takes quite a number of further cycles of reincarnation; with each, we stay longer in Heaven and in better condition. Somewhere along the line we no longer need to reincarnate at all. At that time we rise above Heaven, but are still in the Mental Plane.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristianMyst
Everyone in heaven is NOT at the same level, so there is a kind of grading that limits their access to certain spheres. Spheres can relate to interests, like music or writing or beliefs.




This is certainly in line with Islamic teaching but we believe we are 'graded' by our good deeds rather than by interests.

The grading is according to our “light.” This is the quality of or consciousness. It may very well be a result of our good deeds. It has nothing to do with our interests, I was just being descriptive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristianMyst
There is an appreciable amount of development of talents along the genius class so you will note much about the arts, music, architecture, engineering, math, occurring in their respective spheres.



Oops, I have no ability with art, music, architecture, etc - is there a 'simplicity' sphere where people are not creative or overly clever? Would that be the housework sphere? Oh no, an eternity of ironing (although compared to the alternative 'hot place' ....... point me at the ironing board).

There is a Nursery School in Heaven. It is on the lower floor, down a very long corridor, and along the back wall. There a number of candy strippers will help you with building blocks, and crayons, water colors, and eventually oils. Singing lessons start right after lunch time. Those that struggle will have to take a turn at the housework sphere, and there are millions and millions of sheets to iron. JUST KIDDING. It’s what you WANT to do. As well, it pertains to what you have innate in you from ALL of your thousands or more lifetimes. Trust me, you do have talents and interests. Many of those accomplished writers and artists of the last many centuries are already there. You may get to meet them.

Those who are in Heaven can share their insights, skills, talents with those here on earth, usually children and grandchildren, but as well, other people who demonstrate a similar interest. This comes down as psychic “insight” to those qualified. Unfortunately, here on Earth there usually needs to be a “reaching up” to make this kind of connection. Otherwise, it is a slow process of “influence.” This latter is more of the psychic/mediumship perspective, as not all Theosophists are aware of this process.

Salaam

Sorry had to make the font bigger, my eyes are not what they used to be and I refuse to wear my glasses.

You won’t need glasses on the other side.

[Muslimwoman]

Sorry Nick I don't want to hijack the thread but just wanted to add something about the suicide bombings. Most of the scholars that have called for these attacks are speaking about Palestine, they believe that Israel are oppressors and occupiers of Muslim lands so it is therfore a legitimate war (I have some sympathy with this view but cannot agree on kiling civilians). However, that doesn't get around the prohibition of killing civilians. I am afraid when it comes to Palestine anger seems to take over reason and religious teaching, as the Quran forbids suicide it is a major sin:

There have been conflicting reports about the stand of Sheikh Muhammad Tantawy, the top Egyptian cleric of Al Azhar University, and the mufti of Egypt. Shortly after 9/11 the Sheikh Tantawy issued a statement apposing suicide attacks. But a translation from Al Azhar website quotes him as supporting suicide attacks on Jews in Israel as part of the Palestinian struggle "to strike horror into the hearts of the enemies of Islam." Then in mid-2003 he was quoted again as saying "groups which carried out suicide bombings were the enemies of Islam."

For example, Sayed Mohammed Musawi, head of the World Islamic League in London, insisted "there should be a clear distinction between the suicide bombing of those who are trying to defend themselves from occupiers, which is something different from those who kill civilians, which is a big crime."

Quite how this man can correctly say killing civilians is a big crime and then agree with it when it comes to Palestine is beyond me. I think it proves my point - insanity and politics.

[Nick the Pilot]

Muslimwoman, you asked,

"What is the difference between astral and mental in Theosophy?"

--> According to Theosophy, there are different Planes of Existence. At night, while we are asleep, we leave our physical body behind, and travel around in our astral body. When we come back, we remember these travels as dreams.

We have an astral body, and we also have something called a mental body. The Mental Plane is above the Astral Plane. The mental body operates at a higher frequency than the astral body, and is a higher form of existence.

"The Quran speaks of the 'universes' - ie plural, so we have no idea what exists outside our own 'knowledge', so there could be a miriad of levels not even hinted at."

--> The ideas of multiple universes and miriads of unknown levels are fundamental Theosophical concepts.

"Great flow chart by the way. I was surprised to see the last level referred to Jehovah, yet no level for the rest of us. Where do we all fit in?"

--> Jehovah was thrown in as just one example. According to Theosophy, Jehovah is the patron saint of Israel (which explains the statement that they are his "chosen people" — they are, because he is their patron saint.) Each national group has its own patron saint. Therefore, we all "fit in".

"In Theosophy, the "soul" also returns, but is very busy, while your belief system seems to think the soul does nothing during this time. --> Gosh would hardly call going through the tourment of Judgement 'nothing' So what do you believe the soul does during this time?"

--> I was referring to the time spent waiting for the final Judgement Day, not the time spent actually going through it. The way I see it, we reincarnate during this time. You had said your belief system only has us waiting in our graves and doing nothing during this time.

"It may not for most Muslims, perhaps it is just me because I can't accept this 'only our gang' gets to go thing."

--> I am glad to see you are willing to question your belief system. I do not, and will not allow any inconsistencies in my belief system. (Fortunately, Theosophy has yet to throw an inconsistency at me.)

"Yes I am afraid Islam is very big on the 'you have to be in our gang or burn in hell' thing. There is however a minority of Muslims that read the Quran differently, not without good reason, I am in that 'gang'."

--> Good for you. Are you trying to instigate some kind of revolution in Islamic thinking?

"Oh no please don't think that, it is a common misconception about Islam. You mention a terrorist hijacker - no way was he ever going to heaven according to the Quran."

--> I am glad to hear that. However, it does not change the fact that he thought he was going to Heaven, and was surprised when he didn't make it. If we can advertise such an idea (and stop at least one trip to Hell for one terrorist), we are making progress.

"I am constantly saddened by it and believe that Allah will be too."

--> Now we are getting into one of our differences. I could never believe in an Almighty God that is moved by emotion.

"However, that doesn't get around the prohibition of killing civilians."

--> If we could only teach them the idea of making bad karma (and needing to burn it off later), it would be a big improvement.

"I think it proves my point - insanity and politics."

--> Insanity for which they will be held accountable, down to the last jot. Karma never forgets.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by ChristianMyst

It may be for this reason partially that Theosophy has no agenda to sway one away from their formal Religion in favor of our philosophical science/religion/philosophy solely.

Salaam Christian

Thank you for your replies, makes interesting reading.

The Quran states very clearly 'there shall be no compulsion in religion'. It is such a shame that this has been turned into 'you have to convert everyone you meet'.

Originally Posted by ChristianMyst

Therefore, Theosophy sees the fundamental or founding beliefs of many, if not all religions, to be a subset of its broader spiritual perspective.

I like the sound of Theosophy, it seems to encompass everything and accept everyone without exception. I am not sure I could cope without my belief in a personal relationship with Allah or of course in His Divine Being but that is just me.

Originally Posted by ChristianMyst

Religion is not an actual factor in the Astral or the Mental, except where we chose it to be.

Sorry I am not quite understanding you (sometimes you have to give me the blonde version ). So do you believe in a 'higher power' as the creator and angels? I have heard of the idea that everything is interconnected and we are each a small part of the 'energy' that is everything but that it is not controlled, it just is. Is Theosophy along those lines?

Originally Posted by ChristianMyst

The otherside is not slanted to any one religion, but rather exists and functions according to a set of rules or processes that Theosophy, Buddhism and Hinduism to name a few understand rather well.

That would be a great relief to me. I tend to go against the generally held view of my faith when it comes to this issue. The Quran tells us that had Allah wanted to He could have made us all one nation but He did not and when we die He will tell us the difference between us. I simply do not accept that it means He would say 'ok you lot are right and everyone else is wrong and going to hell'.

Originally Posted by ChristianMyst

I should finish this vein by saying that “love” would have an immensely greater meaning in those higher realms, and that love would transcend time. Even if we detest someone now in this earthly realm, we may vary well love them dearly in Heaven as the entirety of our past together is the “place” we are at.

Originally Posted by ChristianMyst

Inshallah. The hatred in this world just astounds me at times.

Salaam

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by ChristianMyst

It’s what you WANT to do. As well, it pertains to what you have innate in you from ALL of your thousands or more lifetimes. Trust me, you do have talents and interests. Many of those accomplished writers and artists of the last many centuries are already there. You may get to meet them.

Oh there are so many historical figures I would love to meet. I have my name down for the gardening club, I just want a peaceful quiet afterlife. I would also love to learn to paint, maybe someone will teach me?!

Originally Posted by ChristianMyst

You won’t need glasses on the other side.

Originally Posted by ChristianMyst

Oh good. I assume I won't ever need to diet either

Salaam

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

--> I was referring to the time spent waiting for the final Judgement Day, not the time spent actually going through it. The way I see it, we reincarnate during this time. You had said your belief system only has us waiting in our graves and doing nothing during this time.

Hi Nick

Sorry I seem to have lost the ability to express myself recently. The time in the grave is a time of questioning, what you might call the Judgement element of the process. For Muslims we go through this time until the Day of Resurrection, which is when we will be sent to hell or allowed to enter heaven. The time in the grave for evil people will be a terrible time, until they get thrown into hell. So we are waiting in our graves but not doing nothing. I think this is where I came into this conversation, considering whether the torment in the grave was inflicted by ourselves rather than by Allah, as we will during that time be faced with every deed we have done and if we are going to hell we will know it and have that fear to contend with.

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

--> I am glad to see you are willing to question your belief system. I do not, and will not allow any inconsistencies in my belief system. (Fortunately, Theosophy has yet to throw an inconsistency at me.)

I believe nothing just because someone says I should. I truly believe we all have the truth inside us, we just have to learn to listen to that inner voice. It is like a knowledge we are born with, I feel I know automaticaly if I hear a scholar claim something is from Allah but it is not. I am not suggesting I have any ability or knowledge that everyone doesn't have, it is just to me it seems obvious (quite frankly I think it is because I have refused to grow up so have kept that annoying childlike ability to see what is really there).


--> Good for you. Are you trying to instigate some kind of revolution in Islamic thinking?

I would love to start an Islamic revolution, whereby we start with the Quran and a blank piece of paper and say 'ok page 1, what does it actually say'. Islam is such a beatiful religion but has been interpreted and reinterpreted into something hard to recognise.

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

--> --> I am glad to hear that. However, it does not change the fact that he thought he was going to Heaven, and was surprised when he didn't make it. If we can advertise such an idea (and stop at least one trip to Hell for one terrorist), we are making progress.

To be honest I have often said there will be many surprised Muslims when the time comes, so this comes as no surprise to me. This is one difficulty in fighting terrorism, they really actually believe that what they are doing is for Allah and the will be rewarded for it.

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

--> Now we are getting into one of our differences. I could never believe in an Almighty God that is moved by emotion.

I know He probably isn't emotional at all, that comes from my habit of humanising Allah and projecting my feelings onto Him - very bad habit.

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

--> If we could only teach them the idea of making bad karma (and needing to burn it off later), it would be a big improvement.

That is the silly thing Nick, we believe in Karma, we believe we will be rewarded for our good deeds and punished for our bad deeds. These people are just so far removed from normal thinking and they honestly believe that they are 'doing Allah's work' and will be rewarded for it.

Islamic leaders that are not extreme fanatics are starting to work against this since 9/11. Many have realised that the extremists don't care about their vicitms so are now using the great sin of suicide to try to draw young people away from this way of thinking. By harping on that a suicide will not be accepted into heaven they are trying to make these young people stop and think about their souls.

It is starting to work so unfortunately the terrorist leaders are now telling the young people that they do not commit suicide, as Allah himself sets the bomb off. They actually use remote detonators so the young people think Allah did it. It sounds unbelieveable to a rational person but it is true. Can you imagine the evil required to convince a person to commit suicide and then blame Allah for it. Makes my blood boil.

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

--> Insanity for which they will be held accountable, down to the last jot. Karma never forgets.

Inshallah and I pray Allah will be merciful to the young people that don't know any better and are duped by these evil people.

Do you believe in evil?

Salaam

[Nick the Pilot]

Muslimwoman, you said,

"The time in the grave is a time of questioning, what you might call the Judgement element of the process."

--> I think Islam would agree that there are people who have been dead as long as 6,000 years. That seems a mighty long time to be doing some questioning, especially inside of a grave.

"For Muslims we go through this time until the Day of Resurrection, which is when we will be sent to hell or allowed to enter heaven."

--> What about babies who die? what about severly retarded people? What about the unfairness of some people born horribly poor, while others are born filthy rich?

"The time in the grave for evil people will be a terrible time, until they get thrown into hell."

--> What about people who were not good enough to go to Heaven, but not bad enough to go to Hell? They still suffer inside graves?

"I would love to start an Islamic revolution...."

--> Does this put you into any danger? I was just reading about the lady in Indonesia who was thrown in jail because she chose not to be Muslim any more.

"By harping on that a suicide will not be accepted into heaven they are trying to make these young people stop and think about their souls."

--> It sounds like progress is being made.

"Inshallah and I pray Allah will be merciful to the young people that don't know any better and are duped by these evil people."

--> I am sorry to break your train of thought, but such a prayer (to avoid bad karma) does not exist in Theosophy. I think it is a bad idea to mess with the Lords of Karma.



However, there is another way to look at it. Karma is 100% fair. There is no need to worry about a diety treating them unfairly, nor a need for a diety to be merciful to them. None at all (according to Theosophy).

"Do you believe in evil?"

--> My definition of evil is perhaps different than yours. I certainly do not believe in an evil hierarchy headed by a Devil. According to Theosphy, evil is defined as going in the opposite direction of the flow of spiritual evolution. What may be evil for one person is not necessarily evil for another. A man may kill to find food, and not be making bad karma. Another man who kills for sport is making bad karma.

"I would also love to learn to paint, maybe someone will teach me?!"

--> I remember the story of one lady who learned how to play the piano after her physical death. I think the sky is the limit as to what we can do during that time.

[Nick the Pilot]

Muslimwoman, you said,

"The Quran states very clearly 'there shall be no compulsion in religion'."

--> I think this is getting into the difference between Heaven and Nirvana (both are Theosophical concepts that do not conflict each other in the least). The choice to enter Nirvana must be made freely. As a matter of fact, getting into Nirvana is quite difficult, and requires a lot of sacrifice.

"Religion is not an actual factor in the Astral or the Mental, except where we chose it to be. --> Sorry I am not quite understanding you...."

--> I think what Christian is saying is, religious ceremonies are not required.

"So do you believe in a 'higher power' as the creator and angels?"

--> Yes.

"I have heard of the idea that everything is interconnected and we are each a small part of the 'energy' that is everything but that it is not controlled, it just is. Is Theosophy along those lines?"

--> Yes. You have described the Theosophical teaching perfectly. The sense of separateness between you and me is necessary and only temporary.

"The Quran tells us that had Allah wanted to He could have made us all one nation but He did not and when we die He will tell us the difference between us."

--> I like the first part of your statement, but not the second part. Sure, there are different kinds of people. But to say one group is better than another is wrong. As a matter of fact, just the opposite of this idea (the idea of universal brotherhood) is the number one Theosophical teaching. It has been said there is only one dogma in Theosophy, and that is brotherhood — he who speaks against brotherhood should be cast out of Theosophy.)

"I simply do not accept that it means He would say 'ok you lot are right and everyone else is wrong and going to hell'."

--> If I were to use your "He" terminology, I would say "He" does not say anything of the sort.

"I am not sure I could cope without my belief in a personal relationship with Allah or of course in His Divine Being but that is just me."

--> Theosophy is all about learning specific techniques that accelerate our progress along the Path to Nirvana. I do not think belief in a personal diety slows you down. Monotheists can make just as quick progress along the Path as anyone else. (As I said before, when a person applies for admission to Nirvana, they are not asked if they believe in Jesus, Allah, etc.) It has been said Theosophy bridges the huge gap between monotheists and non-monotheists better than any other philosophy — I certainly agree.

Am I confusing you about the difference between Heaven and Nirvana?

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

--> I think Islam would agree that there are people who have been dead as long as 6,000 years. That seems a mighty long time to be doing some questioning, especially inside of a grave.

Hi Nick

Thank you for your responses and I am sorry I am not trying to make this discussion about Islam, I came to your thread to investigate your beliefs and see if they align with my thinking at all.

Time after death is a different concept to our hours and years. So a person that dies one day before Resurrection Day and a person that died 6,000 years ago, the time will seem the same to them. It has been described as if you slept for one night, including dreaming/nighmares.

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

--> What about babies who die? what about severly retarded people? What about the unfairness of some people born horribly poor, while others are born filthy rich?

We know that children and people with mental illness, of any religion or no religion) will be accepted into heaven without questioning. They will be at peace in the grave and then be welcomed into heaven.

As for the rich/poor issue, all will be made fair and all will be taken into account. So for example a poor man that steals bread to feed his children will not be judged the same as a rich man that steals money for greed. Allah is All Knowing and Merciful.

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

--> What about people who were not good enough to go to Heaven, but not bad enough to go to Hell? They still suffer inside grave?

Everything is relative, you will suffer according to your deeds. So I imagine Hitler is having a rather unpleasant time but Ghandi is having a nice rest. It is like punishment, some people will be punished in hell for a time and then allowed into heaven, others will remain in hell for eternity.

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

--> Does this put you into any danger? I was just reading about the lady in Indonesia who was thrown in jail because she chose not to be Muslim any more.

I get abuse for my views and some people think I am a bit of a fruitcake that needs 'guidance' but I have never felt in any physical danger. I love Islam but I love the Islam of the Quran, not the political version taken from the hadiths.

The issue of apostacy is quite a big issue in Islam. The Quran says nothing about punishing apostates, in fact it says there is no compulsion in religion but the Sunnah (the hadiths - sayings and deeds of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) narrated after his death - many of which we know are untrue), say apostates should be killed. When you look into most of the more unpleasant aspects of Islam none of them come from the Quran, many oppose the Quran but these fundamentalists go with whatever is harshest - go figure!!!

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

--> I am sorry to break your train of thought, but such a prayer (to avoid bad karma) does not exist in Theosophy. I think it is a bad idea to mess with the Lords of Karma.

Oh we cannot avoid our deeds. It is not like some faiths where you can sorry and be forgiven. Every deed must be faced after death. My prayers for souls tend to be my human emotions getting the better of me, even though I know my prayers cannot change their judgement.

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

--> However, there is another way to look at it. Karma is 100% fair. There is no need to worry about a diety treating them unfairly, nor a need for a diety to be merciful to them. None at all (according to Theosophy).

But Allah cannot be unfair, it is impossible. He is the ultimate in 'fair'. What you sew, you reap - it is up to us to choose how we live our life and therefore our punishments or rewards in the next life.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

The choice to enter Nirvana must be made freely. As a matter of fact, getting into Nirvana is quite difficult, and requires a lot of sacrifice.

What sort of sacrifice is required?

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

--> Yes {re a higher power and angels}


--> Yes. You have described the Theosophical teaching perfectly. The sense of separateness between you and me is necessary and only temporary.

Sorry confused again. If you believe in a higher power and angels but that they do not 'control' everything then what is their purpose?

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

--> I like the first part of your statement, but not the second part. Sure, there are different kinds of people. But to say one group is better than another is wrong.

I don't believe the Quran says one group is better than the other, just that we are different. I believe we all have a given path and our test is to have the strength to stay on that path. When Allah tells us the difference between us I believe He will simply explain the reason for the different paths and the truth of what that path was.

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Am I confusing you about the difference between Heaven and Nirvana?

Is it like the wheel of life, being different levels of heaven that you go to between lives. Then when you learn everything you need to know you move off that wheel and go to a higher plane above heaven?

[Nick the Pilot]

Muslimwoman, you said,

"Time after death is a different concept to our hours and years. So a person that dies one day before Resurrection Day and a person that died 6,000 years ago, the time will seem the same to them. It has been described as if you slept for one night, including dreaming/nighmares."

--> I quess it all depends on what works in a particular person's belief system. I believe I died 6,000 years ago, and I have been very busy since. This makes more sense to me, so that is why I choose it to be in my belief system.

"It is like punishment, some people will be punished in hell for a time and then allowed into heaven, others will remain in hell for eternity."

--> It sounds like people go straight from Hell to Heaven. I prefer the Theosophical approach, in which people move slowly through various levels of Purgatory on their way to Heaven (and eventually, Nirvana).

I get abuse for my views...."

--> Welcome to the club. My belief system has cost me friendships. It is a price I am willing to pay. We religious pioneers have a price to pay, and we must be willing to pay it.

"The Quran says nothing about punishing apostates...."

--> I am glad to hear that. Theosophy teaches that all good people of all faiths are making progress towards Heaven and Nirvana.

"Oh we cannot avoid our deeds. It is not like some faiths where you can sorry and be forgiven."

--> That is why your appeal for divine mercy struck me as rather odd.

"...getting into Nirvana is quite difficult, and requires a lot of sacrifice. --> What sort of sacrifice is required?"

--> My, but this gets us into a complicated topic. Every decent human being can get into Heaven after death (according to Theosophy). Not so for Nirvana. It has been said the requirements to get into Nirvana are harsh, but that is a negative way of looking at it. It is just that the requirements to get into Nirvana are high, and getting there takes a lot of discpline, sacrifice, and determination.

And it could not be any other way. For one thing, people in Nirvana have achieved what I call cosmic consciousness. This means the sense of separateness has disappeard. Here on Earth, I can never appreciate what it means for you to be you, and vice versa. In Nirvana, this limitation disappears. I BECOME you, and you BECOME me (yet our senses of individuality remain intact.) Not one sliver of selfishness is allowed of a person in Nirvana, because it would spread to everyone in Nirvana, which means every living being in the entire universe who is above the level of physical human beings.









Here is a short quote from a man named George Arundale who achieved Nirvanic consciousness, and became one with some plants in a garden. He felt their pain as they were being cut by a heartless gardner.

"Many years ago, it was in 1912 at Taormina, Sicily, I had my first glimpse of the fundamental unities. I remember sitting at the window of my room in the hotel in which a party of us were staying, and I was listlessly dreaming. All of a sudden my half non-seeing eyes rested on the orange grove in the little valley beneath, and I found myself peculiarly, wonderfully, identified with the orange trees, with their very life and being. I was at my window, yet was I also in the orange grove — indeed, I was the orange grove. It was almost as if my consciousness flickered between George Arundale as George Arundale and George Arundale as the orange grove. I was two entities, yet one. And as I lived as the orange grove a gardener entered and began to pluck some of the oranges and to cut off some of the branches. All these things the gardener was doing to me. I rebelled — not as George Arundale might rebel, not with my mind and my will, but as orange groves apparently do rebel. I was conscious of discomfort, of loss, not exactly of pain but of something next door to it. I was the more discomforted because the gardener did not treat me reverently or affectionately, but as if I were inanimate with no feelings, with no capacity for sensation. Why could he not realise that the same life was in us both? If he bad only had the attitude of asking my permission, of begging my pardon, for his actions, of conveying to me that I could make others happy by sharing myself with them, I should not have minded so much. But he was callous, selfish, and treated the orange grove as a slave instead of as a comrade. He hurt me every time be plucked an orange or cut off a branch. With a different attitude on his part, he might have had all my oranges, all my branches, and we might have rejoiced together, for we could have worked together. As it was, being at his mercy and treated as his chattel, life was only just worth living, and I was a poor orange grove, because uncared for.

"This experience of consciousness in the vegetable kingdom opened before my eyes In entirely new conception of consciousness at different levels of unfoldment, and of the implications of the all-embracing unity. I have never been the same since. I have never been able to pluck a flower, or even to uproot a weed, without as it were silently explaining my reasons to the plant or to the weed, requesting a sacrifice for some definite, I will not necessarily say larger, good. And I have never found any lack of cooperation." (Nirvana — An Occult Experience, by George Arundale)

--> I could go on about Nirvana, but I want to add only one thing. Heaven is seen as a place of houses, gardens, etc. Not so in Nirvana. Nirvana is a world of formless light. We are mere points of light within a larger field of light. Form is unnecessary (as we are mere points of light). Listen to this description of Nirvana.

“Try to imagine the whole universe filled with and consisting of an immense torrent of living light, and in it a vividness of life and an intensity of bliss beyond all description, a hundred thousand times beyond the greatest bliss of heaven. At first we feel nothing but bliss; we see nothing but the intensity of light; but gradually we begin to realize that even in this dazzling brightness there are brighter spots — nuclei, as it were — which are built of the light because there is nothing but the light, and yet through them somehow the light gleams out more brightly, and obtains a new quality which enables it to be perceptible upon other and lower planes, which without this would be altogether beneath the possibility of sensing its effulgence. And by degrees we begin to realize that these subsidiary suns are the great Ones, that these are Planetary Spirits, Great Angels, Karmic Deities, Buddhas, Christs and Masters, and that through Them the light and the life are flowing down to the lower planes.

“Gradually, little by little, as we become more accustomed to the stupendous reality, we begin to see that, in a far lower sense, even we ourselves are a focus in that cosmic scheme, and that through us also, at our much lower level, the light and the life are flowing to those who are still further away-not from it, for we are all part of it and there is nothing else anywhere — but further from the realization of it, the comprehension of it, the experience of it.” (The Masters and the Path)

Your questions continued:

"If you believe in a higher power and angels but that they do not 'control' everything then what is their purpose?"

--> Their purpose is to provide us with (1) a place for us to evolve spiritually, (2) a place that allows us to do things of our own free will, without being forced into doing anything. Controlling humans, Nirvanis, etc., is very much against the Universal Plan. A decision to enter Nirvana must be absolutely made of a free-will, a decision that is totally unforced -- I would not have it any other way.

"Am I confusing you about the difference between Heaven and Nirvana? --> Is it like the wheel of life, being different levels of heaven that you go to between lives."

--> Yes, because Heaven only occurs between incarnations. Nirvana only occurs after incarnating has stopped.

"Then when you learn everything you need to know you move off that wheel and go to a higher plane above heaven?

--> Yes, as long as that wheel is seen as being a wheel of successive incarnations. And, the wheel must be seen as eventually stopping, just as reincarnations eventually stop.


~~~

The software at this Forum is still messed up, and still continues to add uncommanded carriage-returns. I give up going back and deleting all these uncommanded carriage-returns.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

I believe I died 6,000 years ago, and I have been very busy since. This makes more sense to me, so that is why I choose it to be in my belief system.

Hi Nick

Which civilisations do you believe you have lived in/through?

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

-> It sounds like people go straight from Hell to Heaven. I prefer the Theosophical approach, in which people move slowly through various levels of Purgatory on their way to Heaven (and eventually, Nirvana).

I have never seen mentuion of whether we go straight from hell to heaven or whether we progress slowly. That is perhaps one of things we need not know at this point, as long as we know there is a chance of being allowed into heaven at some point.

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Welcome to the club. My belief system has cost me friendships. It is a price I am willing to pay. We religious pioneers have a price to pay, and we must be willing to pay it.

One has to ask oneself if a 'friend' that cannot accept your beliefs was ever really a friend. That is how I view it. It is a shame there are such small minded people in the world.

-

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

-> That is why your appeal for divine mercy struck me as rather odd.

Oh that is just me being emotional. We can pray for the dead, the sick, etc but in truth our fate is written and the Quran tells us we cannot intercede for each other, so I fail to see how praying helps that person other than making us feel better about ourselves in the compassion stakes.

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

It is just that the requirements to get into Nirvana are high, and getting there takes a lot of discpline, sacrifice, and determination.

Forgive my lack of ambition but I will happy if I am allowed to do the ironing or wash the floors, anything but the hot place.

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Here is a short quote from a man named George Arundale who achieved Nirvanic consciousness, and became one with some plants in a garden. He felt their pain as they were being cut by a heartless gardner.

So if this person has attained Nirvana why would he leave? (am assuming he left in order to tell this story?)

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Heaven is seen as a place of houses, gardens, etc. Not so in Nirvana.

Islam speaks of the houses, the gardens and the rivers flowing.


--> Their purpose is to provide us with (1) a place for us to evolve spiritually, (2) a place that allows us to do things of our own free will, without being forced into doing anything.[/quote]

Who do they answer to? That sounds wrong but I don't know how to put it. They must have been created, so where does the creator fit in?

~~~

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

The software at this Forum is still messed up, and still continues to add uncommanded carriage-returns. I give up going back and deleting all these uncommanded carriage-returns.

Don't you just love technology. My laptop just did a Windows update now no web pages will open, I have a connection, IM works but every page of the web says cannot be opened - arrrrggggghhhh. Am now on my cranky old pc and the eleastic bands inside sound about ready to snap.

[Nick the Pilot]