Theosophical Hierarchy

[Manichaean Seek]

Nick The Pilot,

I agree that our time will eventually will expire. On the otherhand, I see that the planet is permament. This planet is one of seven planets and so instead of going to a new planet we are to move unto one of the seven other planets. This planet remains the same but the beings who dwell on it always change.

As to those who fail to make it into Nirvana I will say that does it sound alittle illogical to reward those who at the least showed genuine intension and were chosen (by way of iniation) to suddenly experience Avichi, which as you have put, is worse then any Hell. Is this actaully an incentive to encourage those seeking Nirvana do put all of their efforts into their actions, so that they gain enter Nirvana before the earths expiry date.

Andre

[Nick the Pilot]

Andre, you said,

"...I see that the planet is permament.... This planet remains the same but the beings who dwell on it always change."

--> The Sun will burn itself out in a few zillion years. It would seem your system would halt at that time. Such a system seems to lack permanency.

"does it sound alittle illogical to reward those who at the least showed genuine intension and were chosen (by way of iniation) to suddenly experience Avichi...."

--> It sounds perfectly logical to me. Even better than that, it is perfectly fair. (One of my criticisms of Christianity is that it is horribly unfair, although your belief system sounds different than Christianity.)

Regarding the unfairness of Avichi, I just do not see it. Everyone is given a set time of millions of years to reach Nirvana. For those who do not make it in that overly-generous amount of time, they can still make it in the next world-period. No, I see no unfairness whatsoever. The idea that Nirvana must be earned, and can never be given as an undeserved present makes sense to me.

"Is this actaully an incentive to encourage those seeking Nirvana do put all of their efforts into their actions, so that they gain enter Nirvana before the earths expiry date."

--> Yes, it is. This is why it makes sense to me.

~~~

Time for a new topic. I would like to discuss the relationship of animals to humans and Heaven. According to Theosophy, at the end of a world-period, animals are promoted to humans, plants are promoted to animals, minerals are promoted to plants, etc. All consciousness in the universe eventually passes through the human phase, and experiences Heaven and Nirvana.

How is such an idea seen in your belief system? Can animals go to Heaven and Nirvana? How about plants and bacteria?

[wil]

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Time for a new topic. I would like to discuss the relationship of animals to humans and Heaven. According to Theosophy, at the end of a world-period, animals are promoted to humans, plants are promoted to animals, minerals are promoted to plants, etc. All consciousness in the universe eventually passes through the human phase, and experiences Heaven and Nirvana.

How is such an idea seen in your belief system? Can animals go to Heaven and Nirvana? How about plants and bacteria?

In discussion once with an author and friend Kathy Oddenino she mentioned that our souls have all made that transition from gas to stone to bacteria to plant to animal to man... And at each stage we gained and grew...and added that this a reason to respect those that utilize stars, crystals, plants in healing and spiritual practices...

[Thomas]

Can I throw in a couple of issues, that have been raised by many, so might be old hat, as I do not follow this argument?

The Aristotelian idea of perfection/end is for a thing to be all it can be, to realise its potential — so why is it not sufficient for a plant to be a perfect plant, a rock a rock, etc., are we saying that no natural think is perfect in itself, but requires that it transit through human?

Another is that the notion of 'good' or 'bad' from a moral/ethic sense only applies to the human, who has 'freedom' and 'choice' according to his nature. A dog or a plant of a rock does not possess such qualities, so cannot be judged in quite the same way.

Thus the argument that:
A good creature of any species is 'promoted' to the next higher species assumes that the creature has the free moral choice and intellectual capacity top make such decisions.

Likewise the old idea (working in the other direction) that a 'bad' person is reincarnated as a rat or a worm — although I understand this is a populist and unfounded theory?

+++

Overall, is does seem a humanocentric view of things. We have a similar view in Christianity, but that does not mean that things have to be human to be perfect.

+++

On the question of 'are there dogs in heaven' there are two answers:
1 – One might argue that no, there are not. Dogs (etc) have not the capacity to make morally informed choices, therefore the rule does not apply.

2 — I cannot imagine a paradisical state that would not involve flora and fauna. If I got to heaven, and there wasn't an Irish Wolfhound waiting for me, then it would not quite be paradise.

+++

We limit the possibilities to those we choose fitting, which undermines the whole argument, somewhat. What about molecules, galaxies, enzymes, planets, bacteria, atoms ... is there a heaven for them?

Thomas

[wil]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Can I throw in a couple of issues, that have been raised by many, so might be old hat, as I do not follow this argument?

The Aristotelian idea of perfection/end is for a thing to be all it can be, to realise its potential — so why is it not sufficient for a plant to be a perfect plant, a rock a rock, etc., are we saying that no natural think is perfect in itself, but requires that it transit through human?

Another is that the notion of 'good' or 'bad' from a moral/ethic sense only applies to the human, who has 'freedom' and 'choice' according to his nature. A dog or a plant of a rock does not possess such qualities, so cannot be judged in quite the same way.

Thus the argument that:
A good creature of any species is 'promoted' to the next higher species assumes that the creature has the free moral choice and intellectual capacity top make such decisions.

In my view it is not whether one is good or bad...no dualism...but whether the soul as learned all it needs to learn at that level of existence....and not that each and every soul has is on the same career path...much like the cell in the rod of my eyeball differentiating light and sending impulses to my brain to decipher would not be able to take the place of that brain cell or the place of a fingernail cell...each has a duty, not readily interchangeable based on its past experience it is suited for its current location...

Just because I was mushroom and you a sequoia and 17th a tomato doesn't mean we have to graduate through all these unless our soul needs some other experience for the next incarnation... Just as no one on earth is able to say the Sadam has not finished his role on this planet...

I'm always reminded in these discussions of that chinese story I can never remember about the kid who broke his arm so he didn't go to war ...not good, not bad...just is.

[Nick the Pilot]

Wil, you said,

"In discussion once with an author and friend Kathy Oddenino she mentioned that our souls have all made that transition from gas to stone to bacteria to plant to animal to man..."

--> Kathy is wise beyond her years. Such an idea is a basic Theosophical teaching.

I am fascinated by her comment about gas. I wonder if she means physical gas or spiritual gas. (I imagine she means physical gas.) According to Theosophy, spirit is in a sort of "spiritual gas" state before it ensouls mineral. This "spiritual gas" does not ensoul any physical object (as such ensoulation is impossible). The first act of ensouling (according to Theosophy) occurs when physical matter is first ensouled, which first occurs when each level (human, animal, plant, mineral, "spiritual gas") is promoted at the beginning of a world-period.


I need to add one more concept to the theory. This "spiritual gas" is just one more step on a long series of steps that began when Spirit first moved across the Waters, creating spiritual "sparkles" in the Water. Those sparkles, after aeons, become the "spiritual gas".

"...that this a reason to respect those that utilize stars, crystals, plants in healing and spiritual practices..."

--> This is a great utilization of the concept that soul (individuals as well as non-individualized) occurs at many levels.

[Nick the Pilot]

Thomas, you said,

"why is it not sufficient for a plant to be a perfect plant, a rock a rock, etc., are we saying that no natural think is perfect in itself, but requires that it transit through human?"

--> Because all spirit is on a journey back to That which "exists" above the Firmament. Accoriding to your belief system, a plant remains a plant for eternity. According to my belief system, a plant becomes much more — eventually a star, and even higher. (The idea that bacteria will remain bacteria for eternity strikes me as rather odd.) This is why I like my belief system better.

"Another is that the notion of 'good' or 'bad' from a moral/ethic sense only applies to the human, who has 'freedom' and 'choice' according to his nature. A dog or a plant of a rock does not possess such qualities, so cannot be judged in quite the same way."

--> According to your belief system, they never will. According to my belief system, they will. A dog cannot be judged by human standards, that is obvious. Ah, but when a dog becomes a human (according to Theosophy), it is judged as a human.

"A good creature of any species is 'promoted' to the next higher species assumes that the creature has the free moral choice and intellectual capacity top make such decisions."

--> I do not see a bacteria being able to make such a decision. However, it is promoted according to a strict set of criteria, just as strict as the human criteria. It is just that (according to Theosophy) promotion at the bacterial level is more automatic, while at the human level free moral choice and intellectual capacity become critical issues.

"Likewise the old idea (working in the other direction) that a 'bad' person is reincarnated as a rat or a worm — although I understand this is a populist and unfounded theory?"

Populist perhaps, and certainly unfounded. Theosophy teaches people never reincarnate as animals. This is a big difference between Theosophy and Buddhism. I could never believe people reincarnate as animals, which is one more reason why I am not a Buddhist.

"...that does not mean that things have to be human to be perfect."

--> Fortunately, Theosophy teaches that humans are a long way from perfection, much further from perfection than Christianity teaches.

"Dogs (etc) have not the capacity to make morally informed choices, therefore the rule does not apply."

--> This agrees with the Theosophical idea that dogs do not go to Heaven until they become humans.

"I cannot imagine a paradisical state that would not involve flora and fauna."

--> My Heaven will certainly contain flora and fauna. The thing is, it will all be an illusion, created by me, for me, in my Heaven. The real flora and fauna will be much too busy becoming humans.

"If I got to heaven, and there wasn't an Irish Wolfhound waiting for me, then it would not quite be paradise."

--> He will be waiting.

"What about molecules, galaxies, enzymes, planets, bacteria, atoms ... is there a heaven for them?"

--> Eventually, yes!

[Nick the Pilot]

Wil, you said,

"In my view it is not whether one is good or bad...no dualism...but whether the soul as learned all it needs to learn at that level of existence...."

--> I agree.

"...and not that each and every soul has is on the same career path..."

--> I agree.

"...much like the cell in the rod of my eyeball differentiating light and sending impulses to my brain to decipher would not be able to take the place of that brain cell or the place of a fingernail cell..."

--> I agree.

"...each has a duty, not readily interchangeable based on its past experience it is suited for its current location..."

--> I agree.

"Just because I was mushroom and you a sequoia and 17th a tomato doesn't mean we have to graduate through all these unless our soul needs some other experience for the next incarnation..."

--> I see all of consciousness traveling on a Path of increasing spirituality, with definite steps along the way, each step being a prerequisite for the step above. I guess you do not, and we can agree to disagree.

I do need to ask one question. Do your occular rods and cones have the ability to go straight to Heaven as angels?

"I'm always reminded in these discussions of that chinese story I can never remember about the kid who broke his arm so he didn't go to war ...not good, not bad...just is."

--> I am reminded of an angry God who threw Adam and Eve out of paradise. In my belief system, they were allowed and encouraged to descend to the Earth. Therefore, your belief system and mine involve less judging of good and evil than the prevailing belief system.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

I wonder if she means physical gas or spiritual gas. (I imagine she means physical gas.) According to Theosophy, spirit is in a sort of "spiritual gas" state before it ensouls mineral.

ether that or something else!!

It has been quite a while since I've seen Kathy...she's moved away and the things she has discussed have merged with many other discussions in my mind so I can't say actually whether the gas was with her or not..I know this is discussed in one of her books, I don't know if I have the right one at home to find it or not..

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

According to your belief system, they never will. According to my belief system, they will.

I believe each soul is designed for a belief system....and that soul will find it...or evolve to suit the system that our shell has settled into...or make another few hundred trips around...

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

"Just because I was mushroom and you a sequoia and 17th a tomato doesn't mean we have to graduate through all these unless our soul needs some other experience for the next incarnation..."

--> I see all of consciousness traveling on a Path of increasing spirituality, with definite steps along the way, each step being a prerequisite for the step above. I guess you do not, and we can agree to disagree.

I do need to ask one question. Do your occular rods and cones have the ability to go straight to Heaven as angels?

"I'm always reminded in these discussions of that chinese story I can never remember about the kid who broke his arm so he didn't go to war ...not good, not bad...just is."

--> I am reminded of an angry God who threw Adam and Eve out of paradise. In my belief system, they were allowed and encouraged to descend to the Earth. Therefore, your belief system and mine involve less judging of good and evil than the prevailing belief system.

I do believe there are steps...I don't know if they are the same for everyone...I'm not believing so...

rods and cones as angels...hmm that would have us being a multitude of souls...expanding on my quick analogy...I'm not thinking so...

As for the Adam and Eve and angry G-d I don't see an angry G-d throwing them out of the garden...I see man creating a story where an angry G-d threw them out of the garden to explain situations that were occurring at that time...

[Nick the Pilot]

Wil, you said,

"I do believe there are steps...I don't know if they are the same for everyone...I'm not believing so..."

--> I am glad we can at least get people to think there is more to "eternity" than a two-step process of dying and Heaven.

"rods and cones as angels...hmm that would have us being a multitude of souls..."

--> You do not see us as a multitude of souls?

"... the gas was with her or not.."

--> Oh dear, I wonder if she had gas....

[wil]

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

"rods and cones as angels...hmm that would have us being a multitude of souls..."
--> You do not see us as a multitude of souls?...

You know I've contemplated souls splitting and souls uniting and more than one...but trillions I haven't contemplated trillions...it seems acceptable but confusing.

You must remember I respond with thoughts as I read these posts and don't have the education and knowledge so many of you do...just experience and contemplation...

[Nick the Pilot]

Wil,

Yes, the numbers are mind-boggling. Our Milky-Way galaxy is said to contain 250 billion stars, and one estimate says there are about 250 billion galaxies. And, according to my belief system, each star was at one time a human being. That is a lot of human beings!

[wil]

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Wil,

Yes, the numbers are mind-boggling. Our Milky-Way galaxy is said to contain 250 billion stars, and one estimate says there are about 250 billion galaxies. And, according to my belief system, each star was at one time a human being. That is a lot of human beings!

See now that isn't mindboggling 62 octillion I can grock and contemplate it being small...

But if you have a system so well defined...now my contemplations cause my neuronet to heat up... back to trillions of individualised souls in one entity....it is funny why did I think that as acceptable as a planet but not as human...where is the paradigm shift that didn't allow that before...another viel lifted that wasn't there...

So if we go from ether to here and from here to star...what happens as we dwarf and morph? Still the contemplation of soul growth and multiple souls/trillions...makes me wonder if they come and go as we move along...

[Nick the Pilot]

Wil,

OK, I will take your 62 octillion and raise you a gazilliion. Earth has about 3 billion people. It has been said our Earth has a total of 60 billion souls going in and out of incarnation. This is only one planet, and it has been said our solar system contains seven or ten such "creation stories".

How many does that work out to? (I can only count up to ten on my fingers....)

[wil]

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

How many does that work out to? (I can only count up to ten on my fingers....)

that would be 180 septillion now if we multiply that times our galaxies and we get a number more like it...

Those ten fingers and knuckles when used like an abacus can get you quite far...and then when you add toes...