Theosophical Hierarchy

[Bruce Michael]

Hey Br. Nick,
--> Do you have The Collected Works?
Yes in the old fashioned paper version.



--> Who, then, are you identifying as Father God?

Father God is the Ultimate. And there are two aspects to this - the Persona and Principle.

--> Do you mean anthropomorphism is OK?

Well you are using it is the pejorative sense. I would say theomorphism- Man is made in the Image of God, not the other way around.

"The Buddha's Nirmanakaya appeared to the shepherds."-->


>Feel free to give us more information on this event.

This is discussed in Rudolf Steiner's Gospel of St. Luke lectures.
There is really not much more to say on it..



>You seem to be familiar with the Path that take us to Nirvana. What do >you see as the steps along the Path?


As a Christian, Nirvana is not my goal.

-Br. Bruce

[Bruce Michael]

Br. Andrew asks:

>Could you comment more on this, and maybe mention some of these >different ways?

A quote from my Teachers:
There are those who recognise Christ to be our founding Creator and future Benefactor to Man forever, and then there are those who disassociate and prefer to relate to Father God wholly and utterly, trusting to no other.

He gave men their freedom in this, partially because He did not want to ever give cause to come between any soul and our Father - though He be “the Way” He still gives men the opportunity to use Him passively. Like so many quadrants in the Heavens where beings pass through oblivious to their surroundings, many men dwell in Christ’s own Heart but do not know of their own assumption there.



>... do you equate these beings with the Kumaras? Either way, what do >you believe to be their origins, their current roles in the evolutionary >(Divine) Plan, and their ultimate destiny/fate or goal (likely outcome)?

Kumaras- doesn't that mean gods that don't create?

I would have to look up where Lucifer and Ahriman stand in relation to the hierarchy. Really though, there is no hierarchy in Evil.

Lucifer is the Devil and Ahriman is Satan. Lucifer will be redeemed and Ahriman expelled.

To make it simple: Lucifer is of the unripe and Ahriman the rotten. Lucifer hasn't reached puberty (Peter Pan) and Ahriman is the Old Man. Christ is the Balance in the world.

Lucifer seeks to draw us up and away from earthly evolution whilst Ahriman wants to bind us here forever.

Lucifer used to have more power in the past and now Ahriman is most prominent in the world.

-Br. Bruce

[Nick the Pilot]

Bruce, You said,

"As a Christian, Nirvana is not my goal."

--> How does reincarnation fir into your belief system?

[Bruce Michael]

Originally Posted by Nick the Pilot

Bruce, You said,

"As a Christian, Nirvana is not my goal."

--> How does reincarnation fir into your belief system?

We come to the temptation of Nirvana at the "midnight hour" between death and birth. We are shielded from this because the temptation of bathing in oceans of bliss is all too alluring.

Nirvana, as you may know, means "blown out" like a candle.

-Br.Bruce

[Manichaean Seek]

Hello

I have been meaning to take up theosophy but started to get confused.

I am aware that there is 7 heavens.

I normally study Gnosticism (esp through Order of Nazorean Essenes).

Can I get the chance to talk about theosophy step by step. can I talk step by step here or should I set up a new post?

Andre

[AndrewX]

Andre,

As far as I'm concerned, feel free to ask away on this thread. We have been discussing the idea of a Spiritual Hierarchy in Theosophy in particular ... especially as that relates to planet Earth. This alone, is a pretty big topic, but it stemmed from a discussion about just Who or what `God' is - relative to Earth Humanity, or say, our Solar System - vs. the ABSOLUTE ... etc.

Yeah, we tackled the Mother of all Mysteries!

Anyway, please share something of your interest and background, and feel free to ask any questions that you might have.

Theosophy actually teaches something familiar to certain schools of Hinduism. The term `Devachan' is used for a Heaven-world, which is kind of an in-between Heaven, or a place of great spiritual bliss and rest. Every single one of us is said to reach Devachan, normally, and to spend several hundred years there before we reincarnate.

Some teachings suggest that there are two main groups of human Souls: one which spends ~700 years in Devachan between lives, the other which spends ~1200 years. This is by no means believed by all Theosophists, however.

Teachings also suggest that disicples, or advanced human Souls, will sometimes reincarnate immediately, or very soon after passing on. H.P. Blavatsky, for example, though not a high Initiate, was certainly an advanced soul, and she returned to incarnation just a few years after she died. Her lifetime before HPB was as Alessandro Cagliostro, whose death is given as 1795. HPB was born in 1831, so there again, just ~36 years ... and clearly no time spent in Devachan.

For the average person, anywhere from several months to several decades might be spent in the astral world, equivalent to the Catholic purgatory, and also to the Tibetan Buddhist bardo, beginning soon after physical death. A person progresses through these intermediate realms, and while the lower astral can be very hellish and frightening, the higher astral is a wonderful, pleasant experience ... even to the point of becoming almost a sidetrack. Souls have been known to remain in the astral or lower mental realms for centuries, researching, exploring, etc. - instead of moving on with their evolution.

Sooner or later, we return to the Higher Mental world, or Devachan. A Master or Initiate would not be "satisfied," or remain in this condition, although for most of us it is so blissful that we might "think" we were already in Nirvana. We would know our inherent Unity, the bonds that connect us, and would experience the very real spiritual Presence of all our friends and family.

The choice that an Initiate or Master makes not to remain in this state, is not because there is anything wrong with it ... certainly not `deceptive.' It's just that there is a higher Purpose for our being here (I believe it can be summed up in the term `Loving Service'), so eventually, all of us return from Devachan back into physical incarnation.

This is the Will of the Soul, and the Soul seeks a Perfection which can only come while we are physically incarnate, accomplishing all that Deity has intended for us. The Plan and the pattern (or blueprint) for all of us is impressed upon the Soul, yet each of us must work this out on our own, as part of a truly unique Journey. When we have accomplished all that God intends for us, we will enter Nirvana, and move on.

Theosophists do not define Nirvana as a state of rest. It can thought of as being at rest, or eternally abiding in perfect Peace, a calm that cannot be disturbed, yet the Masters characterize it as a state of greatest tension, and ceaseless spiritual activity. It is even beyond Bliss, utterly unimaginable, yet it is not the end of our spiritual evolution and Journey. It is the beginning! In this sense, could we really even describe Nirvana as Highest Heaven?

Theosophists, like Hindus, believe in pralaya. At the end of our Planetary Spirit's evolution, and also when our entire Solar System is complete, and all the lives contained therein return to the Source, there is a period of complete inactivity ... just as each of us typically experiences sleep each night. Really this involves preparation for the next `Day' of Cosmic (or Solar, or Planetary) activity, but from our point of view, it is perfect bliss, or perfect sleep. So I sometimes think of this as being Highest Heaven, even though it's pretty far off into the future ...

I think I might have dodged the idea of Seven Heavens, so let us know if this wasn't what you were thinking. Did you by chance, mean the Seven Planes of Being?

Cheers ... Love and Light,

~Andrew

[Nick the Pilot]

Andre, You said,

"I have been meaning to take up theosophy but started to get confused."

--> Theosophy is the most complicated and confusing philosophy in the world. I still find things in Theosophy that I do not understand.

"I am aware that there is 7 heavens."

--> Yes, there are. This is one of the ideas in Theosophy I find so attractive.

"Can I get the chance to talk about theosophy step by step. can I talk step by step here or should I set up a new post?"

--> Starting a new thead is not necessary. We can do it here. I think it would be a wonderful idea to take a look at Theosophical concepts in a step-by-step fashion.

First and foremost are the twin ideas of reincarnation and karma. How do these two ideas fit into your belief system?

[Manichaean Seek]

Andrew (Nick the Pilot),

On Reincarnation:

As a Manichaean I see reincarnation as a system by which we become pure, good and divine fruit to be placed on the alter of LIFE. At the end of a individuals life, typical Manichaean teaching tells of:
1:the wise, pure and righteous is decorated by robes, crowns and garlands of light and does not experience reincarnation and rises to the Lands of Light, Love and Life

2: the normal individualis reincarnated and

3: the wicked, evil and sinner (rebelling individuals) experience the outcome of their own self-made realities (their realitiesheld together by darkness, hate, misery etc).
Content taken from website of the Order of Nazorean Essenes.

I invite you to comment on the above. Manichaeans are good listeners and we surely do pay good attension. Just keep in mind that I am a non-christian. I would see 1, as similar to the ending of our life on earth and so we are recycled. For 2, I see that those who are not interested in truth and spiritual matters will just reappear on earth. And for 3, those of bad and negatitive dispositions will suffer at the hands of their own deeds, works, thoughts etc.

On Karma:

I hold that Karma, in most ways is at its best when it comes to morality. Such as good deed is rewarded by good furtune but a bad deed is rewarded with bad fortune. I give my brother a cake and he will thank me. If I do not give my brother some money he will hate me. Also, Karma is able to explain why suffering and imperfection is in the world. This is because; for suffering, men do bad deeds to the detriment of others and for imprefection, we do bad deeds (of an imprefect or immoral nature) which causes imperfection. Imperfect is bad and negative but perfect is good and positive.

Andre

[Nick the Pilot]

Andre,

I am glad to see reincarnation is part of your belief system. To me, reincarnation makes absolute, perfect sense. I can see no flaw in the system whatsoever.


You said,

"...the wicked, evil and sinner (rebelling individuals) experience the outcome of their own self-made realities (their realities held together by darkness, hate, misery etc)."

--> This fits into Theosophical theory, since Theosophy teaches the idea of Hell. By the way, Theosophy teaches it is possible to spend time in both Heaven and Hell between reincarnations. How does that fit into you belief system?

"Just keep in mind that I am a non-christian."

--> I am also not a Christian (although there are Theosophists who are Christian, such as Andrew. Theosophy has plenty of room for Christians as well as non-Christians.)

"I would see 1, as similar to the ending of our life on earth and so we are recycled."

--> This brings us to the next Theosophical idea, that of Nirvana. Your number 1 sounds like Nirvana to me.


By the way, Theosophy teaches both Heaven and Nirvana, and sees no conflict between the two ideas — they are perfectly complimentary, in the Theosophical scheme of things.

"3, those of bad and negatitive dispositions will suffer at the hands of their own deeds, works, thoughts etc."

--> Theosophy agrees, although Theosophy sees these people as also reincarnating, once their negativity has been burned off in Hell. (I assume you believe the people in group 3 do not reincarnate.)

"...Karma is able to explain why suffering and imperfection is in the world."

--> I take this to mean you believe in Karma. I am glad that we agree on this concept.

~~~

Does Nirvana fit into your belief system? Do you see a conflict between Heaven and Nirvana?

[Manichaean Seek]

Nick the Pilot

I insist that I do not belong to a belief system, since being a gnostic I seek to know what is the truth etc by way of independent seeking and I do not wish to be over assocaited with an organision, thus " Those who seek should not seek untill they find. when they find they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all.[And after they have reigned they will rest" 2rd Logion of the Gospel of Thomas. Also, "When you know yourselfs, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Farther. But if you do not know yourselfs, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty" 3rd Logion of the Gospel of Thomas. Also, "become not a portion of the Darkness, but lift up your eyes to the Light Land. From the Evil unto the Good, separate yourselfs out; from then sinful evil of the region of darkness separate yourselfs out" From the Doctrine of Kings 13, Drashe D Malke, Discourse of Celestral Kings. In addition,
"It is by means of this unity that each one shall receive themselves back again. Through gnosis that one shall purify themselves with a view to Unity, be engulfing the Matter within themselves like a flame, Darkness by light and Death by Life." Gospel of Truth, Valentinus. Lastly, " One who gains to this gnosis and gathers themselves from the cosmos..... is not longer detained here but rises above the Archons" " I have come to know myself and have gathered myself from everywhere" Gospel of Eve.

To comment on reincarnation: reincarnation to me is really for those spoken in 2 and 3, but for the one who comes to know the truth will go straight to the Light Lands without being reincarnated, not if they are given a special task to fufill. "I am I, the son of the mild ones. Minged am Im and lamentations I see. Lead me out of the embracement of death" Manichaean Turfan Fragment. So, if I hearken to gnosis, I will be united, I would have collected all of myself and I would ascend. I would love to be reincarnated, but I would love to see the spread of Gnosticism etc.

You can either spend time in either Heaven or Hell,not both. For example a normal individual may go to either Heaven or Hell, both surely not both.



The people of spoke of in group 3 do not reincarnate to ascend to the Light Land but have existence in their own realities. They exist not in a spiritual Hell but exist in their own self-made Hell.

Lets move onto the next topic. Regarding Nivana I will state that; I see it as a state of virtue, wisdom, compassion, etc, also it is enlightment from ignorance, illumination, separation from the material and darkness. This is a time of joy and harmony. So in that case Nirvana and Heaven do not conflict. In short, Nirvana is the saving from treaded reincarnation. Thank Nirvana.
Andre

[Nick the Pilot]

Andre, You said,

"I insist that I do not belong to a belief system...."

Great, because I was talking about your belief system, not something thrust upon you by a dogmatic organization. Critical thinking is highly prized in Theosophy — the most important thing we can do is take responsibility for our own personal belief system. You have done that, and I congratulate you.

"...since being a gnostic I seek to know what is the truth etc by way of independent seeking and I do not wish to be over assocaited with an organision...."

--> That is an admirable position to take. I, too, critically analyze everything in my belief system, and do not allow anything in that does not make sense. (As it just so happens, so far, everything I have seen in Theosophy makes sense to me.)

"I would love to be reincarnated, but I would love to see the spread of Gnosticism etc."

--> Did you mean to say you would love to stop reincarnating? Perhaps you will continue to reincarnate, even after your need to reincarnate has disappared.

"You can either spend time in either Heaven or Hell,not both. For example a normal individual may go to either Heaven or Hell, both surely not both."

--> Why not? This gets us into the next Theosophical topic, which is Purgatory. You mentioned the seven levels of Heaven. Actually, Theosophy sees the (non-Nirvanic) afterlife as a scale of various realms, a "sliding scale" that ranges from Hell to Heaven. According to Theosophy, a really bad person spends time in Hell, and burns off the negative vibrations they took on in physical life. They can then rise to the next higher level, which can be described as Purgatory. They can burn off more negativity there, rise through more levels, until they reach the highest level (Heaven).

Unfortunately, (according to Theosophy) such huge progress does not alwaya happen. Some people spend their time on only a small range of levels, instead of transitioning all the way through to the top level, Heaven. (It has been said the middle Purgatorial levels are quite pleasent, so people there are able to have a peacful rest before facing another challenging incarnation.)

Purgatory makes sense to me, because there are a lot of people not bad enough for Hell, yet not good enough for Heaven. How does Purgatory fit into your belief system?

"The people of spoke of in group 3 do not reincarnate to ascend to the Light Land but have existence in their own realities. They exist not in a spiritual Hell but exist in their own self-made Hell."

--> Theosophy agrees. According to Theosophy, we make our own Hell (Hell is not a punishment thrust upon us by an angry God).

"So in that case Nirvana and Heaven do not conflict. In short, Nirvana is the saving from treaded reincarnation."

--> I agree. I would add one idea. In Theosophy, Heaven is seen as a time of blissful rest. Nirvana, on the other hand, is a time of great activity. Does that sound right to you?

[Manichaean Seek]

Nick the Pilot

Nick the Pilot you said:"Did you mean to say you would love to stop reincarnating? Perhaps you will continue to reincarnate, even after your need to reincarnate has disappared."

Well if I need reincarnate then it would have to be for a valid course, like not to repeat what I have already done but to spread Gnosticism etc. Since I would by description place myself in group 1, this lifetime is the last, where I have completed what I seeked to do, after years of reincarnation and dwelling in this inn.
You said: Why not? This gets us into the next Theosophical topic, which is Purgatory. You mentioned the seven levels of Heaven. Actually, Theosophy sees the (non-Nirvanic) afterlife as a scale of various realms, a "sliding scale" that ranges from Hell to Heaven. According to Theosophy, a really bad person spends time in Hell, and burns off the negative vibrations they took on in physical life. They can then rise to the next higher level, which can be described as Purgatory. They can burn off more negativity there, rise through more levels, until they reach the highest level (Heaven). Unfortunately, (according to Theosophy) such huge progress does not alwaya happen. Some people spend their time on only a small range of levels, instead of transitioning all the way through to the top level, Heaven. (It has been said the middle Purgatorial levels are quite pleasent, so people there are able to have a peacful rest before facing another challenging incarnation.)
Purgatory makes sense to me, because there are a lot of people not bad enough for Hell, yet not good enough for Heaven. How does Purgatory fit into your belief system?

So you were saying thet people progress through the heavens whilst experiencing pergatory in each heaven. I would suggest that Pergatory is not just limited to heavens and the time spent reincarnatin (that is time when an individual is not living on earth) but can be extended to living on earth. For example people can see life as a form or pergatory. Whereby we experience the results/consequences of our thoughts,deeds and works before our bodies pass away. I see the most wicked, I hold strongly will not experience pergatory but will be allowed to live in their own self-made realties. They decieved themselves so it is seen as wise not to reincarnate them, but to let them reap the rewards from their own realities, which amount to nothing.
For those who have commited themselves to lesser immorality will experience either pergatory on earth or during the acsent to one of the heavens. I would not associate pergatory with the ascent through the heavens - whereas reincarnation is more suitable. Where someone passes away on earth (one who has gained the gnosis) and is born on the lowest Heaven and over hundreds/thousands of years we progress by gaining more gnosis etc, untill we reach the top and enter the Land of Light. I would treat earth as Hell, since it provides the vital experience. Overall, pergatory I accept. It demonstrates the gradual acsent, collection of ourselves, gaining of gnosis, and so on.



I will provide a section from my Essay for Faith 111, which is still to be completed (to just give more space on my views):
5. Archons and Nazorean Cosmology 07/05/2007.
The Archon by what I know are the Archons, gods and goddesses who have dominion over the universal prison, or the material realms ( in some cases, they also have power over spiritual realms). They control both material and spiritual realms of their own desire, they where not appointed their tasks,
as they assumed to perform their own tasks, tasks of evil nature.They also assumed that they are the masters of the universe. Indeed earth is hell and a dungeon, of we do not break free of it we will be bound to it. When reflecting on the seven lower heavens, I understand, how they encase the world and theother heavens, not only do they entrap but the lower heavens are all in the hands of individual beings, and with each lower heaven and the heavens master is an specific influence, an influence which originates from
all the lower heavens and descends onto the earth.These influences are like dirty water, that when touches the earth mixes with heavenly water, the water from the highest heaven (the eight heaven), The Heaven of Heavens.

The lower heavens also act as obstacles because they present before man bountiful challenges, these challenges are made possible by the ploys and stratagems of the Archons, and gods and goddesses. However, it is
displeasing to know that the obstacles, in all of their forms and designs are intended to trap man in the darkness and limit him to the material rather. The Archons, gods and goddesses are authoritarian self-boastful beings that in their ignorance of God Most High bolster they belief that they are greater or more important then they really are, if a single being declares that he is god and no other is as he is, then more determined will the madman be to enslave humanity. I have complete faith in both good and bad have their own unique and distintive sources, all good is of the Lord Wisdom's will and the bad is the work of Satan, the Archons and all the evils that work in the darkness which they are so comfortable to abode in. God's will is despised by the evils of the darkness as the darkness is out to stop God Most High's will from being deliereved. Anything that stands against God The Farther of Light cannot keep us its assult, for evil will burst out of energy and for the time being evil will try hard to suffocate mankind.

The universe in which we live in is pulled down by its own imperfection and this is because of the darkness and of the bad influences of the Archons. It would be correct to say that God Most High does not walk or dwell within the material univere because the universe is filled over with bad things and besides it would be unfair to say that a perfect spirit dwells in a imperfect universe. Faith and rebirth is how we can escape from the material prision. Man will have no use or need for his body after man is reborn as a spiritual body. In faith we are reborn, parted from the condemned material and iniatied into the light.The world and all things material distract men from spiritual progression and faith in the Lord Wisdom.

Taken form Andre Francis, Essay for Faith 111, to be completed and sent to the Order of Nazorean Essenes (Neo-Manichaean Church).
---------------------------------------------------------------------

You said:"I agree. I would add one idea. In Theosophy, Heaven is seen as a time of blissful rest. Nirvana, on the other hand, is a time of great activity. Does that sound right to you?"

I say: You are correct in saying Heaven is a time of blissful rest. A comparison comes to mind, where Heaven and Nirvana can be associated with 'fullness' or ' illumination' because they work well together bringing men to, I am sure you are aware off, that final truth, the completion and the end result of everything. Heaven, then comes after Nirvana, this is what I would map out. We focus on reaching Nirvana whilst on earth but nonetheless if we archieve full Nirvana then we would save ourselfs the need to be reincarnated. For example, I am only 20 and many people have been amazed by my own 'depth' - this way I seem beyond everyone else. In my situation, would I need to be reincarnated if I have, unlike millions upon millions upon millions of people show no interest whatsover? I would in may case not reincarnate not on this earth, not on one of the 5 lower Heavens but on one of the three higher Heavens. I would place people like yourselves, mystics and gnostics in the higher Heavens due to the evident depth, or the profundity of our disposition. To gain access to the higher Heavens is a great reward for someone who dedicated his whole life, at 20 to these matters, which most 20 year old males ignore.

Andre

[Nick the Pilot]

Andre, You said,

"...if I need reincarnate then it would have to be for a valid course...."

--> I figure I have at least a couple more reincarnations left. But I am like you, when the time comes to move one, I plan to move on.

"So you were saying thet people progress through the heavens whilst experiencing pergatory in each heaven."

--> Not exactly. I was saying there is a Heaven/Hell Continuum, rather than a Purgatory in each Heaven.

"I would suggest that Pergatory is not just limited to heavens and the time spent reincarnating (that is time when an individual is not living on earth) but can be extended to living on earth."

--> That is an interesting idea. Since Purgatory is a time of burning off self-inflicted negativity, I see a similarity between Purgatory and Earth.

"I see the most wicked, I hold strongly will not experience pergatory but will be allowed to live in their own self-made realties."

--> I agree, to a certain extent.

"They decieved themselves so it is seen as wise not to reincarnate them, but to let them reap the rewards from their own realities, which amount to nothing."

--> Here is where you and I disagree. Even people from Hell should be allowed to reincarnate. In Theosophy, almost everyone has the right to make progress and eventually end up in Nirvana, no matter how bad they have been. (One of the things I like about Theosophy is that it gives everyone an almost unlimited number of chances.)

"...(one who has gained the gnosis)...."

--> What is Gnosis?

"I would treat earth as Hell, since it provides the vital experience."

--> I am reminded of a story told by a Theosophist who was a psychic. He spoke with people residing in Hell (a fascinating story). He told of a woman who had overindulged in sexual desires while alive, and was now surrounded by nude male images, who she continually pursued. As soon as she caught one, it would evaporate. She was doomed to a seemingly endless pursuit of her desires. (Fortunately, it is said her time there will eventually end, no matter now hard she may try to stay there.) This is similar to the Greek mythology story of Sisyphus, who kept rolling a rock uphill, only to see it slide back down.


Back to the story of the lady, she was told by her Guide she could get out of Hell simply by not thinking about sex anymore. This is true, but, as any addict knows, merely thinking about stopping does not make it easy.

"Overall, pergatory I accept. It demonstrates the gradual acsent, collection of ourselves, gaining of gnosis, and so on."

--> This brings up to a new topic. Theosophy has the idea that we are continually raising ourselves up to higher and higher levels of consciousness. After we are done on Earth, we will rise to the level of consciousness called Nirvana. Nirvana, however, is only seen as one more step along a Path that leads even higher. (Theosophy sees many levels of consciousness, higher than even Nirvana.) How does this fit into your belief system? Do you see Heaven as the final goal?

"...gods and goddesses who have dominion over the universal prison, or the material realms...."

--> Do you see these gods and goddesses arranged in some kind of Hierarchy?

"...the bad is the work of Satan...."

--> Do you believe in an evil Hierarchy?

"The universe in which we live in is pulled down by its own imperfection and this is because of the darkness and of the bad influences of the Archons."

--> Theosophy disagrees. The universe is seen as basically a good place. Problems arise because of immaturity, not because of evil forces tempting us.

"Man will have no use or need for his body after man is reborn as a spiritual body."

--> I agree.

"Heaven, then comes after Nirvana...."

--> I see it the other way around. I guess if it works for you, go for it. Do you see people experiencing bliss between incarnations? You do not call this inter-incarnational-bliss Heaven, correct?

"In my situation, would I need to be reincarnated if I have, unlike millions upon millions upon millions of people show no interest whatsover?"

--> Certainly, if we no longer desired physical life, that would remove one thing that prevents us from entering Nirvana. Is that the only criteria you see? I see three more: (1) a minimum level of spirituality, similar to the Light you described earlier (2) a burning off of all bad karma, and (3) a proven record of service to humanity.

I am curious how many of these four things you see as necessary to enter Nirvana. Most people are surprised to hear of (3) a proven record of service to humanity, but it makes sense to me.

It is time to bring up a new topic. What about people who are working toward Nirvana, but simply run out of time? (The day will come when the Earth is no longer available to us.) What happens to these people, according to your belief system?

[Manichaean Seek]

Nick the Pilot,

You said: "Here is where you and I disagree. Even people from Hell should be allowed to reincarnate. In Theosophy, almost everyone has the right to make progress and eventually end up in Nirvana, no matter how bad they have been. (One of the things I like about Theosophy is that it gives everyone an almost unlimited number of chances.)"

I say: Okay, people who dwell in Hell should be allow to reincarnate but should be proven worthy by faith/deed/thought to enter into one of the heavens. I hope that such people are pure in spirit- then I cannot object. If a criminal then made correct then he is welcomed and the same goes for he who is wicked- the offer of entrance into one of the heavens is always open, but people stray of course. You made an valid point, despite peoples shortcomings the offer/place is still open to them.

You said:"What is Gnosis?"

I say: on this I will save the need for a long description, view; Gnostic Judas - What is Gnosis? and/or About Me (read the introductio). I say gnosis is a form of knowlegde, not limited to words or books but is gained via experience of something enlightening, either through a Saviour figure or by individiual endevours. It is experience that leads to knowledge. A seeker after gnosis is not a know-it-all but one who seeks wire end for truth. A seeker then, who has gnosis and looks for further gnosis is therefore a follower, not a believer.

You say:"This brings up to a new topic. Theosophy has the idea that we are continually raising ourselves up to higher and higher levels of consciousness. After we are done on Earth, we will rise to the level of consciousness called Nirvana. Nirvana, however, is only seen as one more step along a Path that leads even higher. (Theosophy sees many levels of consciousness, higher than even Nirvana.) How does this fit into your belief system? Do you see Heaven as the final goal?"

I say: It sounds logical, to have a level of consciousness higher then Nirvana. I insist you refrain from using belief system- It makes me feel like a cultist. I am sure that there a greater things then Heaven, Heaven sounds like a stop! If someone was happy with justing settling in Heaven as their final goal then they would not consider about other things. I never fully determine just when I will stop.

You said:"Do you see these gods and goddesses arranged in some kind of Hierarchy?"

I say: yes. Seven major ones familiar to pantheons of pagan religions and some are described from founders, prophets, gnostics etc.

You said:"Theosophy disagrees. The universe is seen as basically a good place. Problems arise because of immaturity, not because of evil forces tempting us."

I say: On the otherhand modern gnostics will translate what I said into " imprefection (that is a product of the 'bad') is brought about the human desire to cause detriment to others for personal gain" Evil forces, Archons and the beings are therefore semi-personified into beings that attempt to act through us, driving us to fall from righteouess. These beings can also be seen as immorality, rather then being mythical beings. The universe, to us is Matter, as supposed to Spiritual. We Live in Matter, so be are blind to what the Spiritual looks like. The world of Matter is also a mixture, so you find differences in views. I see Mixture of our would in many ways, moral and immoratilty, wisdom and folly and light and darkness etc.

You said:" I see it the other way around. I guess if it works for you, go for it. Do you see people experiencing bliss between incarnations? You do not call this inter-incarnational-bliss Heaven, correct?"

I say: I meant that Nirvana comes before Heaven. This saying this someone can enter into Heaven whilst experiencing Nirvana and still remain in Heaven. Yes, I am sure that people can experience bliss between lifes on earth, it would be considered a form of reward for the individuals life on earth. As to your last question, an individual can experience Heaven, not in the Highest Heaven, the Land of Light but one of the lowest Heavens. After someones time in the lowest Heavens expires they return back, either to become knowers/followers/gnostics during their time on eath or to become a typical beings (normal folk) or to turn to immorality. But, I hold that, for the knowers/seekers and the gnostics that they will experience full bliss when they reach the Land of Light- although they keep experiencing inter-incartional-bliss, which becomes greater, as they progress through the seven major heavensuntill they reach the eight, The Land of Light. Heaven is then, separate from bliss, Heaven's are fixed, but blissed can be experienced in any place.

You say: "Certainly, if we no longer desired physical life, that would remove one thing that prevents us from entering Nirvana. Is that the only criteria you see? I see three more: (1) a minimum level of spirituality, similar to the Light you described earlier (2) a burning off of all bad karma, and (3) a proven record of service to humanity. I am curious how many of these four things you see as necessary to enter Nirvana. Most people are surprised to hear of (3) a proven record of service to humanity, but it makes sense to me."
I say:To put to much requirements would indicate indirectly that you would have to be proved worthy from entering Nirvana. I hold that upon entering illumination, awakening or Nirvana that we are ready for greater things and we follow these things up to get to the end. I know that billions of people will never get to experience Nirvana and so cannot progress to the end. Allow me to comment; (1) It is hoped that seekers after Nirvana and individuals who enter into Nirvana do have spiritual experience, in order to be able to deal with the profunity of the experience, any typical human being would fail to know what the experience is all about- due to the abundant ignorance. (2) Burning off bad karma would happen already before the individual entered into Nirvana, For example a knower of the Truth would have no bad karma for he would do not bad things and will not face retribution. (3) We must love and respect all others, for as part of the Universal Brotherhood, we must do good deeds onto each other, including those who mock us because of us walking in the way of Truth and Light. All four points could then be key in determining entrance to Nirvana.

You say: "It is time to bring up a new topic. What about people who are working toward Nirvana, but simply run out of time? (The day will come when the Earth is no longer available to us.) What happens to these people, according to your belief system?"

I say: They, depending on their spirits' real convicitions (if the person may the decision for their own good and not for a bad purpose) may just enter into Nirvana, despite only working towards Nirvana. Their good deed will not be rewarded with nothing less.

Andre Francis

[Manichaean Seek]

Nick the Pilot

I will keep back to you after the weekend.

I did type my posting but it has not appeared.

Andre

PS I will type a responce posting on monday.