Theologians

[Postmaster]

I've seen how the Baha'i faith has taken concepts out of various religions and renewed them to make sense for our times. Baha'is will argue that this process has been happening from the start of religion, it's like they are doing whats been happening in the past and at the same time point out its been happening and we weren’t aware of it.

I'm starting to think that all spiritual leaders are nothing more then mystical theologians. Also I'm starting to think that they suffered from megalomania. Can't be a coincidence that religious leaders often are related to royalty? Buddha, Jesus, Baha'u'llah. They have a marketing ability of there ideas and are driven by there megalomania. How many people in history have claimed to be prophets and failed? We simply haven't heard about them because they never got popular. But there has been loads! And whats funny, the so called divine prophets seem to share there ideas, even though they came after them. I've been researching the flops and I can't believe how they had the same views before some of the later greats.

I feel like a cynic, maybe I'm going through a phase. One thing im sure of and can never deny is God. If he speaks to us through people in society, it must be through all of these prophets. Regardless if they are not sinless. It’s the only thing we have.

[arthra]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

I've seen how the Baha'i faith has taken concepts out of various religions and renewed them to make sense for our times. Baha'is will argue that this process has been happening from the start of religion, it's like they are doing whats been happening in the past and at the same time point out its been happening and we weren’t aware of it.

I'm starting to think that all spiritual leaders are nothing more then mystical theologians. Also I'm starting to think that they suffered from megalomania. Can't be a coincidence that religious leaders often are related to royalty? Buddha, Jesus, Baha'u'llah. They have a marketing ability of there ideas and are driven by there megalomania. How many people in history have claimed to be prophets and failed? We simply haven't heard about them because they never got popular. But there has been loads! And whats funny, the so called divine prophets seem to share there ideas, even though they came after them.

I feel like a cynic, maybe I'm going through a phase.

Well my view Postmaster is if you study the life of Baha'u'llah or that of previous Messengers of God, magalomania or magic slight of hand is not involved...at all... Had Baha'u'llah not embarked on His prophetic mission He would have had a very high place in the Persian court with plenty of admirers and hangers on...in short a life of luxery and ease, but instead His Mission called for Him to be imprisoned and exiled most of His life and His property in Iran seized and His Home ransacked...yet Baha'u'llah survived most of those who wanted Him dead or silenced.

- Art

[Postmaster]

How many times in history has royalty claimed to be divine? Look at Alexander the great for instance, after his death he had a cult following that was destroyed by the Romans. Royals get to where they are from hostility and domination, how can they then produce God on earth?.

I only had about 5 hours sleep last night from thinking about this last night. This idea of predestination and prophecy in religion and that something is destine to happen. Personally I think that God has set out a certain architectural plan for us, the rest is left down to us. That means some people in society must act in a certain way, it doesn’t matter who does it, as long as someone does, in order for us to progress, some prophets attempt to reach that limit set by God and fail. It is within human nature to attempt it, so God expects it. The ones that hit that limit set by God are the great prophets and allow mankind to progress.

Maybe this is why there is so much confusion in prophecy?

[Postmaster]

What makes me suspicious is that a new world religion has formed. And according to Baha'i awareness it shows how irresponsible the prophets of Baha'i were, stuff that is documented. Theologeans debate the true personality and intensions of the prophets of Islam, Christinity and Judaism too.

Apollonius of Tyana

[Postmaster]

Other sources put Apollonius of Tyana birth at 4 B.C. This is a better source.

Apollonius of Tyana the Nazarene - by Dr. R. W. Bernard (1964)

[arthra]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

What makes me suspicious is that a new world religion has formed. And according to Baha'i awareness it shows how irresponsible the prophets of Baha'i were, stuff that is documented. Theologeans debate the true personality and intensions of the prophets of Islam, Christinity and Judaism too.

Apollonius of Tyana

Sometimes my friend I have no idea where you are headed...

Baha'i Awareness is not a reliable source... It is "documented" by biased enemies of the Faith who persecute the Baha'is. Think about it. If they would execute Baha'is would they stop at fabricating history? or relying on those who attack the Faith?

I'm unsure why you brought up Apollonius of Tyana. Most all the information we have about him was from Philostratus.. Baha'u'llah acknowledged many of the philosophers such as Socrates, Pythagoras, Plotinus and Apollonius in His Tablet of Wisdom (Lawh-i hikmat)

- Art

[Postmaster]

Just thoughts thats all. Is it possible Apollonius influenced Christ thats where I'm going with it. We say prophets get there inspiration from God but maybe they get them from other prophets.

Arthra have you ever considered opening a Baha'i awareness awareness site?

[arthra]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Just thoughts thats all. Is it possible Apollonius influenced Christ thats where I'm going with it. We say prophets get there inspiration from God but maybe they get them from other prophets.

Arthra have you ever considered opening a Baha'i awareness awareness site?

All the references I've seen indicate that Philostratus "Life of Apollonius" appeared around 220 CE...now people will claim all sorts of things but I think from what we know that since this "Life of Apollonius" appeared in the third century and the Gospels appeared a good deal earlier..as much as a century or more in time.

"There is wide scholarly agreement that Mark was written sometime between the late 60s or the early 70s..."

Source:

Gospel of Mark - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I realize some Muslims and Christians take delight in promoting sites that are antagonistic to each other and I consider this to be no different...When properly examined most people will find they are biased and prejudiced from the start. Moreover one can put a "spin" and use innuendo to besmirch and vilify most anyone and I think it should be beneath dignity and integrity to be involved in it.

- Art

[Zagreus]

Relevant to Apollonius of Tyana, another view with which I am familiar is that he was the immediate next incarnation of Jesus of Nazareth. I know this is slightly off-topic, but I just wanted to show a thread of continuity which some people acknowledge.

The apparent contradiction in chronology will disappear, if it can be shown that Jesus was born many years before history suggests - perhaps as much as a century or more. While evidence may be lacking at present to support this claim, none can be produced to dismiss it.

The best evidence of all, I think, is to look at the life of both men, see what they bore witness to through their Good Works, and notice the similarities. Perhaps they were working (even as one Soul, via consecutive lives) to lay the groundwork for a future world religion, as much as one full zodiacal cycle ago.

If Jesus also appears throughout Old Testament history in at least two additional instances - as significant figures for both Jews and Christians alike - then yes, we *do* have a conspiracy of sorts on our hands!

I'm much more interested in how that plays itself out today, in light of various developments toward a unified world religion ... especially within the Baha'i Faith, as well as among people of all traditions - who are forward looking and progressive enough to be looking at the big picture.

Some are still waging so-called "holy" wars today, either with physical weapons, or else in a battle of ideas & ideologies. Others are beginning to make peace, and are finally realizing that even seeing eye-to-eye, differences can be embraced, even celebrated, without losing face - or even the organ & symbol of Vision. What was it Gandhi said about "an eye for eye?"

Most beautiful of all is the fact that for many - certainly Baha'is, and many people of other faiths as well, even those who question or are agnostic - Peace is already an accomplished state of being, or something being practiced in the same way we improve our computer skills, or musical ability. Therefore in group - and in countless groups in every land - there are already people who have realized the importance and practicality of Peace.

My hope would be that people increasingly come together with this principle (or Aspect of Being) as a core value - whatever their religious background or affiliation, even none at all - and work with a United Vision of a viable future for Humanity. So far, Baha'is are one of the few groups I'm aware of who have been able to do this even within their own ranks, so to speak, let alone in terms of Interfaith ... though here again, gee, Baha'is seem to be ahead of the curve. As the fella on Laugh-in used to say, Veddy Interesting.

Pax, and Pax Cultura,

~Zag

[Postmaster]

Very wise Zag, I agree with what you say.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

What makes me suspicious is that a new world religion has formed. And according to Baha'i awareness it shows how irresponsible the prophets of Baha'i were, stuff that is documented. Theologeans debate the true personality and intensions of the prophets of Islam, Christinity and Judaism too.

Apollonius of Tyana

Documented? Be sure to remember that when the Nazi's screened the anti-semitic movie The Eternal Jew, they presented it as "well-documented".

Now we know their motives and question the documentation but there were any number of people around the world willing to accept that propaganda as utter truth.

Regards,
Scott

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Just thoughts thats all. Is it possible Apollonius influenced Christ thats where I'm going with it. We say prophets get there inspiration from God but maybe they get them from other prophets.

Well Baha`u'llah taught that all the Prophets spoke with one voice. Why should Baha`u'llah have looked elsewhere to support His teachings?

Regards,
Scott

[Nattering Nabob]

How many times in history has royalty claimed to be divine?

You are absolutely right about that...it is symbolism. Joseph Campbell said something to the effect that the hero of the story usually learns his true identity as the king's son, which represents finding the divinity which resides in us all.

[Postmaster]

Just wondering if Baha'is have an answer to the question of why God let the holocaust take place? Gods chosen people, who even had a sea separated for them in order to aid there exodus (some of later settled in the Greek Islands, even Cyprus).

Above all we must not forget that the Jews were the victims. I think it’s on the same level as what happens to all people world wide, in natural disasters or human caused disasters. I'm pretty sure a Baha'i point of view is of people turning from God and end up in them situations. Very old concept.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Just wondering if Baha'is have an answer to the question of why God let the holocaust take place? Gods chosen people, who even had a sea separated for them in order to aid there exodus (some of later settled in the Greek Islands, even Cyprus).

Above all we must not forget that the Jews were the victims. I think it’s on the same level as what happens to all people world wide, in natural disasters or human caused disasters. I'm pretty sure a Baha'i point of view is of people turning from God and end up in them situations. Very old concept.

I ran two message boards for years to support the normal historical view of the Holocaust. Believe me, I've seen all the wierdos and goose-stepping racists I ever need to see.

It's this way. God created a perfect universe, and that includes mankind who are capable of severely messing it up.

A handful of dedicated anti-Semitic racists planned, executed the Holocaust. God had nothing to do with it. Six million (approx) died, but that includes Slavs, Gypsies, political opponents of the Reich, etc. God neither condoned nor participated in it at all. Free will is God's purpose. The only monsters are self-made ones.

Regards,
Scott