The Wrath of God

[wil]

Originally Posted by Silas

You KNOW that you've broken His laws, yet you wont come to Him the way He has provided. You choose to not to believe. You dont want to believe. You trust in your own righteouness.

Thats where many fall short!

Namaste Silas,

I think this could be a great discussion in the Abrahamic or Christian forum, but as it is in the Abrahamic area you really need to curtail the self righteousness.

As you have the spirit of Christ in you, surely you have the discernment ability to openly discuss rather than constantly berate and close down discussion.

peace and blessings

[Silas]

If I were self-righteouss, I would brag how I am a good person who doesnt need a Savior. But, since the opposite is true...well, the opposite is true. I'm not good and I need a Savior!

[dauer]

Silas,

Yes, I do believe Jesus is the ONLY way to God. So? That doesnt mean I condemn you, it means that you dont believe and thus you'll perish...if you dont repent and trust in Christ. My belief in Jesus has nothing to do with you being condemned by God. Im not sending you to hell!

You've condemned me with your words. Whether or not you give your words to God, they're still yours. If you were my neighbor and came over to my house one night for a housewarming party, and you stole my television claiming it was really God stealing it, and not you, and you didn't even want to steal, you would still be responsible for the theft of my television. The same is true here. You have condemned me and all of those who don't agree with you. And in response to all of the accusations in your post,

"Is it not so that if you improve, it will be forgiven you? If you do not improve, however, at the entrance, sin is lying, and to you is its longing, but you can rule over it."

Genesis 4:7

Dauer

[Cage]

Cain let it rule over him, but G-d gave him an opportunity to salvage himself...

[Silas]

Originally Posted by dauer

Silas,
You've condemned me with your words. Whether or not you give your words to God, they're still yours. If you were my neighbor and came over to my house one night for a housewarming party, and you stole my television claiming it was really God stealing it, and not you, and you didn't even want to steal, you would still be responsible for the theft of my television. The same is true here. You have condemned me and all of those who don't agree with you. And in response to all of the accusations in your post,

"Is it not so that if you improve, it will be forgiven you? If you do not improve, however, at the entrance, sin is lying, and to you is its longing, but you can rule over it."

Genesis 4:7

Dauer

Umm...I guess I'll have to qualify my words to you. OK, so "The BIBLE SAYS" that if you dont repent and trust in the Savior, you are going to hell. Silas is only reitterating. Now, as for improving yourself. Nah, that doesnt work with God, sorry. If you robbed a bank ten years ago and didnt get caught until ten years after the crime, your guilt isnt earsed. Its the same way with God. God remembers all of your sins and they MUST be attoned for. The Jews in the OT had to slaughter animals once a year to cover sin. God provided His own sacrifice for men once for all time. Beleive in Christ and you will have eternal life - says the Bible - Im only saying what "THE BIBLE" says, alright?

Quick question though: Doesnt the gospel make sense? God is Holy and Just. By His nature He is obligated to punish all crimes done against Him. But God loves man. So He sends His Beloved Son to suffer in their stead in order to both satisfy His Justice and Save man. Then Christ raised from the gave in 3 days to valadite His claims of being the messiah and justify guilty men. Whats stopping you from coming to Christ?

[moseslmpg]

Originally Posted by Silas

Quick question though: Doesnt the gospel make sense? God is Holy and Just. By His nature He is obligated to punish all crimes done against Him. But God loves man. So He sends His Beloved Son to suffer in their stead in order to both satisfy His Justice and Save man. Then Christ raised from the gave in 3 days to valadite His claims of being the messiah and justify guilty men. Whats stopping you from coming to Christ?

No, I'd have to say that from an objective point of view, that they don't make sense. In fact, very few religious texts do unless you have agreed before you have started reading. Maybe in the Bible it says that the God-man Christ Jesus is the only way to salvation, but that doesn't really surprise me, since that is what the Bible is supposed to do. Moreover, it is incomplete, whatwith the Apocrypha and other extant texts having been removed. Asking someone why they don't move from Judaism to Christianity (I don't mean to be presumptuous here), is like asking someone why they don't move from Christianity to Mormonism or Islam.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. How exactly is God's wrath any different from a normal human being's? Aside from the omnipotence God has to back Him up.

[Silas]

Originally Posted by moseslmpg

No, I'd have to say that from an objective point of view, that they don't make sense. In fact, very few religious texts do unless you have agreed before you have started reading. Maybe in the Bible it says that the God-man Christ Jesus is the only way to salvation, but that doesn't really surprise me, since that is what the Bible is supposed to do. Moreover, it is incomplete, whatwith the Apocrypha and other extant texts having been removed. Asking someone why they don't move from Judaism to Christianity (I don't mean to be presumptuous here), is like asking someone why they don't move from Christianity to Mormonism or Islam.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. How exactly is God's wrath any different from a normal human being's? Aside from the omnipotence God has to back Him up.

Im a bit worried about resonding to your question in this room - I might get yelled at again and kicked off the site. In any case, I wanted to say this: Christ Jesus is different from ALL other religions figures. Those moralist came that bad men could be made good, but Christ came that dead men may live. They called you good, Christ calls you evil. They talk about doing good deeds, Christ says you have none and need Him. He stands alone as far as religious figures. So now, you can believe whatever you choose to believe and go alone with most people and proclaim your goodness. Or, you can humble yourself and cry out for Christ to save you (in which case He is both willing and ready). So how is God's wrath different from us? He's eternal, we arent. You can be angry at me and they you die and thats it. I can escape your anger and wrath. No one can run from God - He will punish everyone who breaks His laws, the God of the Bible says. So, you can be in Christ, whereby your fine has been paid, your you can pay it for yourself. No one wants that! So in the end you have two sorts of people: Those who say to God "Your will be done" and those God says to them "Your will be done." I heard that some where - I thought it would be cool to say.

[dauer]

Silas,

Umm...I guess I'll have to qualify my words to you. OK, so "The BIBLE SAYS" that if you dont repent and trust in the Savior, you are going to hell. Silas is only reitterating.

There are people who strap explosives to themselves and go on suicide missions justifying it by saying that their holy texts say they should. Consider your audience before you speak. Just because you believe everyone who does not share your beliefs is damned to hell, that is not a reason to repeat this belief to those very people. It's certainly not a persuasive argument for believing as you do. It's a bit like a bully standing over a person in an alley, holding a large bat.

Now, as for improving yourself. Nah, that doesnt work with God, sorry.

You haven't addressed this or any of the other quotes I have given from the Tanach which say that it does work with God. You're merely giving your opinion, which is contrary to scripture.

If you robbed a bank ten years ago and didnt get caught until ten years after the crime, your guilt isnt earsed. Its the same way with God.

That's a very poor analogy. The act of getting caught has nothing to do with improving oneself. I gave you quite a long list of biblical quotes in the other thread which you have failed to address on how sin can be forgiven, without the need for an intermediary.

God remembers all of your sins and they MUST be attoned for.

The question is not "must we atone" but, how? Another issue, there is no hell in Judaism, and God's justice is always tempered by His mercy. If one were to do terrible things in one's life, it would still theoretically be possible, after death, to eventually end up in Gan Eden. It is not for us to judge, but God.

The Jews in the OT had to slaughter animals once a year to cover sin.

Then can you explain how there were tzadikim, righteous people, authors of biblical books, who lived during periods of temporary exile, or while the Beit HaMikdash was temporarily in ruins? Even without considering that fact, I think the Tanach makes pretty clear that the act of sacrifice is not what actually atones. But before I go there I'd like to address the word sacrifice. I don't like it. In English it means to give something up, but in Hebrew, qorban, means to come close or draw near, which emphasizes something very different. Now for some quotes that establish it's not qorbanot that provide expiation.

You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise. [Psalm 51:16-17]

Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but my ears you have pierced; burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require. [Psalm 40:6]

Take words with you and return to the Eternal. Say to him: "Forgive all our sins and receive us graciously, that we may offer the bulls of our lips. [Hosea 14:2]

To do what is right and just is more acceptable to the Eternal than sacrifice. [Proverbs 21:3]

For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings. [Hosea 6:6]

With what shall I come before the Eternal and bow down before the exalted God? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? Will the Eternal be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the Eternal require of you? Only to do Justice, and to love Mercy and to walk humbly with your God. [Micah 6:6-8]

God provided His own sacrifice for men once for all time.

Can you provide a quote from the Tanach please that clearly states human sacrifice is an acceptable practice? I think the last quote I provided, from Micah, seems to state the contrary, that human sacrifice is unacceptable.

Beleive in Christ and you will have eternal life - says the Bible - Im only saying what "THE BIBLE" says, alright?

You are insisting that your interpretation of the bible is the correct one, and that it justifies any of the actions you have taken. And what of those who have attempted to justify crusades? It's a slippery slope.

Doesnt the gospel make sense? God is Holy and Just.

So far so good.

By His nature He is obligated to punish all crimes done against Him.

If God is truly just, then he doesn't create a system man cannot live up to in the first place. He builds a method or methods for expiation of sin into the system, as Judaism contends that He did based on the Tanach. I'm only saying what the Tanach says.

But God loves man. So He sends His Beloved Son to suffer in their stead in order to both satisfy His Justice and Save man.

There's nothing just about an innocent dying for the sins of others, nor is there anything just about human sacrifice, nor is there any suggestion that God would have some sort of son as you've suggested. The closest we come to that are some biblical metaphors:

“My son, My firstborn is Israel..." (Exodus 4:22)

“Thus says HaShem. Israel is My son, My firstborn” (Deuteronomy 4:22)

“When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son” (Hosea 11:1)

”He (Solomon) shall be a son to Me [G-d], and I a Father to him” (1 Chr 22:10)

He has said to me "You (David) are My son. Today I have begotten you. (Psalm 2:7)

And God repeated “I, too, will make him (David) a firstborn, supreme over the earth’s kings” (Psalms 89:27-28)

Is Israel literally God's son? Are David or Solomon literally God's sons? Are you referring again to Daniel? When Nebuchadnezzar, not exactly the most moral individual, refers to seeing one like a son of God? Why would you treat that differently than the others?

Then Christ raised from the gave in 3 days to valadite His claims of being the messiah

But a claim is not evidence of the claim. And there's no requirement that the moshiach must raise from the dead in order to validate his claim. Nor did Jesus fulfill any of the more salient obligations that would be obvious indicators such as world peace, rebuilding the Beit HaMikdash, etc. According to Judaism, if the moshiach really did come, it would not be something debatable. It would be unmistakable. There would not be room for doubt because of the events that would take place.

Whats stopping you from coming to Christ?

It is avodah (worship/service) zara (strange/foreign) -- usually translated as idolatry in English -- for a Jew. And it is not necessary in order to know God or to be forgiven. Avodah zara is one of three cardinal mitzvot that the gemara suggests one should die before breaking. The other two are murder and forbidden sexual relations, not that I agree with the last one (I suppose it depends on whether or not we're including all of the traditional forbidden sexual relations), but my point is that it is a very grave sin. However it still can be forgiven through teshuvah. Only murder cannot be forgiven, because there is nobody to forgive you. But it would still be possible to be expiated after death, as God's justice is tempered by His mercy.

Dauer

[Prober]

Originally Posted by dauer

You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise. [Psalm 51:16-17]

Amen! (Kudos, Dauer, amazing patience...)

[Silas]

LOL! Which one of you are so sorry for your sins that you want to become like Christ? All the OT saints trusted in the Coming Savior and had His righteousness imputed to them and their wrath His Him (Rom. 3:25) Thats my first arguement. Second arguement: Context. Lets take that scripture in context with all the other scripture that deals with sacrifices. What do we come up with? We come up with Two ways to please God. According to Jesus, you may go to Heaven if:

1. You have kept the Law
2. Repent and Trust in Him

Which of you have kept the Law? Oh yeah, None, but instead ALL are guilty. But you have a loophole, you feel sorry and have a broken spirit and contrite heart (so you claim), so God forgives you, you say. Well, what about John 3:18, Isa. 53, etc. etc. God is clear, there is no way to be saved but through the Christ. None of us have enough good to be saved. In fact, we have none before God. But, believe what you will. Its only eternal life. The fact that you're breathing right now should make you understand that you are only alive because God allows it. At any moment He can say enough and you'll be off to eternity.

Make sure you trust in the right God.

[dauer]

All the OT saints trusted in the Coming Savior and had His righteousness imputed to them and their wrath His Him (Rom. 3:25)

I can't accept an argument based in the Greek Testament. If you truly have an interest in communicating with me, you have to stop assuming the additional Christian material is acceptable evidence by default. Clearly I don't accept any of it.

Second arguement: Context. Lets take that scripture in context with all the other scripture that deals with sacrifices. What do we come up with? We come up with Two ways to please God. According to Jesus, you may go to Heaven if:

You're doing it again. I won't accept the GT as evidence. What makes you think that you can simply ignore the quotes I have given in this and the other thread? You are not answering the points I'm making. You're simply ignoring them and proclaiming that I must be wrong, your opinion is Absolute Truth, no way around it. If you really were able to answer them, you would, but since you aren't my only assumption must be that you can't, and so you're retreating to "My God is bigger than yours" if you will.

But you have a loophole, you feel sorry and have a broken spirit and contrite heart (so you claim), so God forgives you, you say. Well, what about John 3:18, Isa. 53, etc. etc.

So in other words you're saying that God does not forgive because you perceive a disagreement in the text and declare that it can only be read in your way? Nevermind that you've only mentioned one of the quotes I've given, and there are other things that work as well according to those quotes. We seem to have a plethora of ways to get in good with God according to the Tanach. But let's address what you've said.

Of course I'm not dealing with John. It's in the GT. Let's talk about Isa. 53 though. Why do you isolate that chapter? When Isaiah was written, were there chapter breaks? (the answer is no.) So who does Isaiah identify as the servant?

Isaiah 41:8 But thou, Israel, [art] my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. [9] [Thou] whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou [art] my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away. (KJV)

[44:1] Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen: [2] Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, [which] will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen. (KJV)

[44:21] Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou [art] my servant: I have formed thee; thou [art] my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me. (KJV)

[45:4] For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. (KJV)

[49:3] And said unto me, Thou [art] my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified. (KJV)

You could even just take all of Isaiah 52 and 53 and paste them together on a separate page, without the chapter breaks, and see how that changes the implied meaning. Nevermind the mistranslations in most Christian bibles such as "stripes" (including in the recently cited KJV.)

God is clear, there is no way to be saved but through the Christ.

I don't think it's clear. I've probably provided you with a dozen quotes to the contrary on the two of these threads which seem to say we don't need to be saved at all, because God empowers us to help ourselves, and will be merciful when we stumble.

The fact that you're breathing right now should make you understand that you are only alive because God allows it.

How does that in any way back up your point? I hope you realize that to anyone on the outside you're just making a lot of metaphysical threats. "Believe what I believe or suffer for eternity." And that's hardly a nice way to conduct oneself.

Make sure you trust in the right God.

Do you believe there is more than one God to trust in?

Dauer