the virgin? mary, noah and adam... - Page 3

Thomas · 01-10-2007, 01:58 PM

Hi Zagreus -

I agree with the first bit, but the rest is an assumption on your part. We do not know this.

It was based on Scripture: "Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham was made, I AM." (John 8:58).

+++

My (orthodox) view is that Jesus 'emptied himself' of His divinity when he became man - there are obvious signs to show that he was neither omniscient nor omnipotent - and that he could suffer ... yet at other times He demonstrated his omniscience and His omnipotence.

My speculative view is that as a man He was, in effect, 'powerless' (think of the temptation in the desert), but as the Logos He is the Power of God, and having surrendered this Power, it worked by, in, with and through Him, by the power of the Holy Spirit (as we say in the Liturgy).

He is the Trinitarian Mystery made flesh.

Thomas

InLove · 01-10-2007, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas

Mary Magdalene symbolises the fallen soul purified by love.

This verse is a difficult verse, but my current view is based on the Greek lexicon, which translates 'touch' as also 'clutch' or 'cling' and also 'hold on to' – so I read it as 'do not hold on to me' because Jesus is passing beyond, or transcending, that which she previously knew, He is advising her to not try and possess Him or know Him as she did, but she must let Him go so that she might fully perceive Him as He has become. He is telling her that everything is changed now, everything is different.

Likewise, we must not seek to possess Christ, to know Him, but always to follow Him, deeper into the Mystery of his Being. As soon as we touch Him, or take possession of Him, we stop growing.

So I treat this not as an admonition, but as a very profound lesson, one very carefully crafted into the whole Johannine account of the Resurrection.

It should be noted that Jesus ascended that very day – everything after the death on the Cross is of a supernatural order, the miraculous order, and is not governed by temporal or mundane matters - so I discount notions of purity or disorientation, etc.

So I read the 'lesson' for the Magdalene and the lesson for Thomas as very much the same – who He is totally surpasses human understanding.

Thomas

It makes sense to me that Jesus would have wanted Mary Magdalene to be able to "move on"--to not hold on to Him in the exact same way she had known Him before, but to now follow Him in a larger sense. As with Peter, when Peter wanted to fight off the arrest--Jesus was telling Him that things would progress the way God intended, but Peter didn't quite understand at the time what that was. But it was for him and everyone. For Mary to hold on to the past would mean she would miss a much greater blessing.

When you say "who He is totally surpasses human understanding", I think you are right. To me, it doesn't mean that we cannot know what we are given and willing to know, but no matter how close we come, the revelation is not yet complete. While I can follow Him, I cannot be Him. I can be "in Him" and He in me, and I can see this when I look at others--all others--but I am not Him. He Is.

InPeace,
InLove

China Cat Sunflower · 01-11-2007, 04:43 AM

So, post resurrection Jesus has a body which can be touched. Then later he ascends. The angel asks why the disciples are gazing into heaven. Question: What was the mode of ascension? Did Jesus just kinda float off, getting smaller and smaller until he disappeared? Would that imply that heaven is a locale within our dimension.

Chris

InLove · 01-11-2007, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

So, post resurrection Jesus has a body which can be touched. Then later he ascends. The angel asks why the disciples are gazing into heaven. Question: What was the mode of ascension? Did Jesus just kinda float off, getting smaller and smaller until he disappeared? Would that imply that heaven is a locale within our dimension.

It may have something to do with metaphysics. I'm pretty sure it might. There is probably some math and science to it as well.

And a heavy dose of Love.

InPeace,
InLove

China Cat Sunflower · 01-11-2007, 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InLove

It may have something to do with metaphysics. I'm pretty sure it might. There is probably some math and science to it as well.

And a heavy dose of Love.

InPeace,
InLove

Well...isn't that kinda the same as saying that it's sorta metaphorical? And if that's a methaphor for some metaphysical transformative process, then couldn't we extend that to include,well, a lot of stuff about Jesus? And how do we tell where the metaphors stop and the history begins, or vice versa? And does it really matter since we have Paul? That's the kinda stuff that would keep me up at night if I stayed up at night.

Chris

InLove · 01-11-2007, 05:31 AM

It's all quite mystifying, I'd say.

Dont stay up too late, my friend. We just got the jacuzzi cleaned up.

LOL--to infinity and beyond!

InPeace,
InLove

Prober · 01-11-2007, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

So, post resurrection Jesus has a body which can be touched. Then later he ascends. The angel asks why the disciples are gazing into heaven. Question: What was the mode of ascension? Did Jesus just kinda float off, getting smaller and smaller until he disappeared? Would that imply that heaven is a locale within our dimension.

Chris

Whatever way it appeared, we are told "he will come in like manner...".

I always thought of it as "floating off". I assume the manner is for our benefit as he could do it however he wished.

Thomas · 01-11-2007, 06:55 PM

Hi Chris –

It's interesting that there are only two Scriptural references to the ascension, and neither tell us much ... what we have has been passed down from Tradition.

With regard to metaphor ... try Googling 'metaphor' and 'Paul Ricoeur' ...

Thomas

juantoo3 · 01-12-2007, 04:10 AM

Kindest Regards, China Cat!

Quote:

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

... how do we tell where the metaphors stop and the history begins, or vice versa? And does it really matter since we have Paul? That's the kinda stuff that would keep me up at night if I stayed up at night.

Just stickin' my quick two cents in, haven't really followed the thread, but yeah, these are the kinds of questions that keep me on my toes and wondering...

China Cat Sunflower · 01-12-2007, 05:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas

Hi Chris –

It's interesting that there are only two Scriptural references to the ascension, and neither tell us much ... what we have has been passed down from Tradition.

With regard to metaphor ... try Googling 'metaphor' and 'Paul Ricoeur' ...

Thomas

Well, that was a pretty unsatisfactory and hollow feeling question.

Thanks for the heads up on Ricoeur. I've got several resources bookmarked for further reading. This seems to go directly to the problem of language and the post modern dilemma. I really, really appreciate this resource Thomas! I'm going to have to check this out and mull it over. How do you get turned on to all this great stuff?

Chris

China Cat Sunflower · 01-12-2007, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Kindest Regards, China Cat!

Just stickin' my quick two cents in, haven't really followed the thread, but yeah, these are the kinds of questions that keep me on my toes and wondering...

Well, it's just that I'm intensely interested in the intrinsic mystery of the whole thing. I've been working on it for twenty five years, I'm no where close to being able to say I know, and I probably never will be. But I'm passionately interested because it has to do with the whole mystery of how life and everything works. Logos: What is it, how does it work, what are its manifestations...? You know?

Chris

Quahom1 · 01-13-2007, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Well, it's just that I'm intensely interested in the intrinsic mystery of the whole thing. I've been working on it for twenty five years, I'm no where close to being able to say I know, and I probably never will be. But I'm passionately interested because it has to do with the whole mystery of how life and everything works. Logos: What is it, how does it work, what are its manifestations...? You know?

Chris

Seek and ye shall find, ask and it shall be given to you, knock and the door shall be opened. I think you will find what you are looking for if you keep at it Chris...

v/r

Joshua

Thomas · 01-15-2007, 01:18 PM

Hi Chris:

I really, really appreciate this resource Thomas! I'm going to have to check this out and mull it over. How do you get turned on to all this great stuff?

Not me, pal! After 30 odd years wandering here and there I'm doing a distance-learning degree in Catholic Theology, and every essay (one a month!) comes back with a mark, a comment, and a 'now look at ...' – I had largely avoided Derrida, post-modernism and deconstruction, etc., until my tutor pointed out that is the area where the real theology is happening at the moment ... the interface between orthodoxy and relativism.

(The clue is avoid anglo-american, which is stuck in examining the minutae, and look at continental philosophy - it's far more holistic)

I've got a reading list so far that will see me right for another 30 odd years, God willing!

The BIG difference is I am not pointed towards popular texts and the spirituality shelf fillers - such books are written to sell, and whilst the messaging is simple and accessible, the philosophy is often vague, if not actually questionable. I am directed to core texts and primary documents – far tougher reads, but invariably honed by critical peer appraisal.

As a Doctor of Philosophy neighbour advised me: "Don't read commentaries on Lacan, you'll never understand them. Read Lacan, and then write out what you got from it, then you'll understand it."

Thomas

China Cat Sunflower · 01-17-2007, 12:14 AM

Thanks Thomas!

If you ever want to share that reading list...

I'm heading in a similar direction, I think. I think it's important to understand postmodernism because so much of our reality is collaged that way, but I'm, like you I think, really looking for the escape hatch.

Chris

China Cat Sunflower · 01-17-2007, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Seek and ye shall find, ask and it shall be given to you, knock and the door shall be opened. I think you will find what you are looking for if you keep at it Chris...

v/r

Joshua

Well, I've got a pretty good idea where NOT to look now!

I appreciate the support Joshua, thanks!

Chris