The Trinity of Christianity

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I think Zazen nailed it in the second post.

But I thought, "intuition" was illogical, simply because there is no "algerbraic" set of sequences that lead to the rational conclusion...? And God, is logical is He not? Then again, we do know that man, is anything but logical, however still insists on trying to be.

My guess is that puts us collectively in, 5th grade of the school of life. That means we are just beginning to understand logic. Hardly a position of maturity to converse with the School Master on issues of any import, or life altering consequence...in logical fashion.



v/r

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[kenod]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

in what context are they not distinct co-equal persons?

We all believe in one God ... the question should be "in what context are they three distinct co-equal persons?"

[kenod]

“The supernatural appearance at the baptism of Christ is often cited as an explicit revelation of Trinitarian doctrine, given at the very commencement of the Ministry. This, it seems to us, is a mistake.” http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

Mark 9:7
And there was a cloud that overshadowed them:
and a voice came out of the cloud, saying,
This is my beloved Son: hear him.

Acts 9:3-5
And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus:
and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him,
Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
And he said, Who art thou, Lord?
And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest:
it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven,
but he that came down from heaven,
even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name,
there am I in the midst of them.

Our God is not only ominpotent, and omniscient, He is also omnipresent.

[Quahom1]

[quote]

Originally Posted by kenod

Our God is not only ominpotent, and omniscient, He is also omnipresent.

He also presents Himself as three distinct personages.

[Quahom1]

John 3:13

And no man hath ascended up to heaven,
but he that came down from heaven,
even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Interesting how this scripture is being used, considering we are left with a distinct understanding that in fact two "humans" were take up by God before their deaths. One happens to be Enoch, and the other Elihja.

[kenod]

[quote=Quahom1]

He also presents Himself as three distinct personages.

If you read my last post, you will see that there are certain difficulties with ascribing the physical manifestations at the baptism of Jesus as "distinct personages".

At the transfiguration, was there two or three? On the road to Damascus, did Paul experience one, two or three? On the day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit made separate physical manifestations: rushing wind, tongues of fire. Moses saw a burning bush and heard a voice - did he experience one, two or three?

I believe we need to consider these questions in the context of the whole Bible, and be careful we do not base our interpretations on a preconceived idea.

[kenod]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Interesting how this scripture is being used, considering we are left with a distinct understanding that in fact two "humans" were take up by God before their deaths. One happens to be Enoch, and the other Elihja.

It is obvious that there is only One who can fit all the criteria listed in John 3:13.

John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven,
but he that came down from heaven,
even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The more usual objection to this verse is that it was John’s commentary, written after the ascension, and not the words of Jesus Himself. The problem with this interpretation is that nowhere in any of the four Gospels is the expression “Son of man” used except by Jesus speaking of Himself.

But then there is always that old chestnut to fall back on: “It was added to the original text.”

[Quahom1]

[quote]

Originally Posted by kenod

If you read my last post, you will see that there are certain difficulties with ascribing the physical manifestations at the baptism of Jesus as "distinct personages".

I see no difficulties, and no impossiblilities. Those are strictly "human" limitations.

At the transfiguration, was there two or three? On the road to Damascus, did Paul experience one, two or three? On the day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit made separate physical manifestations: rushing wind, tongues of fire. Moses saw a burning bush and heard a voice - did he experience one, two or three?

In each incident there was One person.

I believe we need to consider these questions in the context of the whole Bible, and be careful we do not base our interpretations on a preconceived idea.

Why? I'm not the one who questions the Holy Trinity.

v/r

Q

[cyberpi]

Forgive me God (swt), Jesus (pbuh), and Holy Spirit as I show what some alledged Christian scholars try to teach me with what they call 'the Trinity'. With the belief that a god, jesus, and holy spirit are 3 manifestations of one true god or godhead, the gospel reads a whole lot differently. Here is a small summary of this Trinitarian achievement:

1. Since jesus was god, jesus taught people to worship him in truth and spirit.
2. jesus taught people how to worship themselves when he prayed to god.
3. Blasphemy of a holy spirit will now be forgiven because jesus was the holy spirit on the cross when he told himself as god to forgive us.
4. jesus baptized himself with himself when he was baptized with the holy spirit and fire.
5. Although God (swt) created man and woman, a woman named mary gave birth to god.
6. jesus impregnated his biological mother mary and fathered himself... since the holy spirit, god and jesus are one.
7. jesus praises himself when he realizes that he shows children the truth when they are babes.
8. jesus says that to heal some people he has to pray to himself.
9. jesus says he was the only good god and holy spirit when he said there is none good but ONE... God (swt).

If desired I would be happy to provide the red letter verses from the bible that these odd statements come from after applying Trinitarian beliefs. I do not mean to generalize and say that EVERY Chrisitian believes in a 'Trinity' or believes that all 3 are gods or are the same god. No, some only tell me that jesus is god. Others think only the holy spirit is god. Others think all three are separate and that god is one of three gods. Others think it is a godhead... maybe a democracy of 3 equal gods. Many will tell me it is too complicated for me to understand their higher level personal beliefs... or that I have to be a Jew or born of their elite race to get it. Who wrote this atrocious belief called 'Trinity' that so many people teach? Surely it must be in the bible for a follower of Christ to call it Christian? Maybe it is in a secret version of the bible or that I must attend their Church to get it?

So please forgive me God (swt), Jesus (pbuh), and Holy Spirit for repeating what some people try to teach. I'm sure God (swt) knows that I too am guilty of trying to fabricate explanations for what some ancestors have taught. The phrase 'Trinity' is NOT in the bible, so I simply ask the Trinitarians, "Who or what authored your belief?"

[kenod]

[quote=Quahom1]

I see no difficulties, and no impossiblilities. Those are strictly "human" limitations.
In each incident there was One person.
Why? I'm not the one who questions the Holy Trinity.
v/r
Q

The difficulty I see is that if we say the separate physical manifestations at Jesus’ baptism, represent separate persons, then to be consistent, we would have to say that the separate physical manifestation at the transfiguration, on the day of Pentecost, and on the road to Damascus, must also represent separate persons.

However, it seems evident from the text that the Holy Spirit was represented by both wind and fire, and that both the light and the voice Paul experienced, represented Jesus.

If we do not grasp this, it will be almost impossible to understand the symbolism of The Revelation where there are “seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God” (Rev 4); or when the “Lamb as it had been slain” takes the book out of the right hand of “him that sat upon the throne” (Rev 5).

God is one spirit - He is not seven spirits - so we know that the lamps represent seven aspects of God. Likewise the Lamb represents the Redeemer, and the One on the throne represents the King and Judge. Jesus Christ is both.

I have spoken to many Catholics who still attend the RC church but who have realized that the church is not the bastion of Truth. Truth is something that must be sought and discovered as an individual. That is why I recommend that we come at the Scriptures without preconceived ideas handed down by what many Catholics admit is a corrupt institution.

[BlaznFattyz]

the 7 lampstands are referring to seven churches. god the father, the source, is spirit. the son, that proceeded from god, is the word of god, therefore is god, was resurrected back to spirit AND glorified body back to glory with God he had before from eternity. he is the only begotten son whose name god the father has proclaimed has all the authority and power above all things as lord god and saviour.

[Quahom1]

[quote=kenod]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

The difficulty I see is that if we say the separate physical manifestations at Jesus’ baptism, represent separate persons, then to be consistent, we would have to say that the separate physical manifestation at the transfiguration, on the day of Pentecost, and on the road to Damascus, must also represent separate persons.

However, it seems evident from the text that the Holy Spirit was represented by both wind and fire, and that both the light and the voice Paul experienced, represented Jesus.

If we do not grasp this, it will be almost impossible to understand the symbolism of The Revelation where there are “seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God” (Rev 4); or when the “Lamb as it had been slain” takes the book out of the right hand of “him that sat upon the throne” (Rev 5).

God is one spirit - He is not seven spirits - so we know that the lamps represent seven aspects of God. Likewise the Lamb represents the Redeemer, and the One on the throne represents the King and Judge. Jesus Christ is both.

I have spoken to many Catholics who still attend the RC church but who have realized that the church is not the bastion of Truth. Truth is something that must be sought and discovered as an individual. That is why I recommend that we come at the Scriptures without preconceived ideas handed down by what many Catholics admit is a corrupt institution.

But "many" Catholics does not mean all Catholics or even a majority of Catholics...and weren't you the one that stated debate is good, especially when one sticks to their guns but maintains a respectful stance towards the other? Well I believe what I believe, haven't been convinced by solid evidence to the contrary, and have held a respectful defference for your thoughts on the matter... and I'm certain I have conveyed that I have discovered (for me), the truth. So please forgive me when I take notice of your "preconceived" notion that the Catholic faith is run by a corrupt institution. You do not know that as fact. I on the otherhand do not perceive that as "fact".

Secondly, the Catholic church is irrelevant here, as there are other denominations of the Christian faith that hold the Trinity to be true. Hence I am curious at your focus on Catholisism, as being the progenetor of an alledged "false hood"...which you can not prove one way or another... indeed all you can present is an opinion.

Third, in considering the Holy Trinity and its merit within the Christian fold at large, a GRAND majority of Christians hold this concept to be true (over 2 billion, of the estimated 2.3 billion of professed Christians world wide) Those are pretty staunch numbers to consider. Unless you are insinuating that all those Christians are wrong, and the remaining 300 million are right...

Just some thoughts of mine.

v/r

Q

[kenod]

I think in any discussion forum it is taken for granted that the ideas we present are what we personally believe to be true - why bother posting them otherwise? Of course it is not possible to prove faith, all we can do is offer the evidence for consideration as we see it. I try to maintain a respectful attitude to the beliefs of others, though I suppose we all tread on each others toes occasionally.

By referring to the Trinity as a preconceived idea I did not mean to disparage your beliefs - I mean that it is a traditional belief handed down over the centuries. When we are taught to believe the Trinity doctrine, everything will be interpreted in that light.

I don't think numbers make for a good argument, especially since Jesus speaks of the "few". And I have always had great difficulty coming to terms with the history of the RC church. It is not pretty reading, and I do not see how God would entrust The Faith to such an institution.

Even today, although I think there have been many good men in the RC church, do you feel comfortable with the level of political appointments, displays of great wealth, adherence to rites without personal faith, sexual immorality, etc?

[Quahom1]

[quote=kenod]

I think in any discussion forum it is taken for granted that the ideas we present are what we personally believe to be true - why bother posting them otherwise? Of course it is not possible to prove faith, all we can do is offer the evidence for consideration as we see it. I try to maintain a respectful attitude to the beliefs of others, though I suppose we all tread on each others toes occasionally.

For certain.

By referring to the Trinity as a preconceived idea I did not mean to disparage your beliefs - I mean that it is a traditional belief handed down over the centuries. When we are taught to believe the Trinity doctrine, everything will be interpreted in that light.

Here. I'll show you exactly what I believe. Maybe that will help.

When I think of God the Father, normally I consider Him as "provider" for the existence of everything (the cosmos). His personage maintains the laws of nature, in short He is the archetect, and source, the judge. But on occassion I will "pray" directly to the Father, in a personal and heart felt manner, about "children" issues, because, He is the ultimate "father". My prayers are questions and dialogue between one Father and another father. Maybe that is wrong, but obviously I could care less. Sometimes going to the source is best.

When I think of God the Son, I see Jesus as friend, brother, savior, encourager. He is always running ahead of me, egging me on to move faster, and His laughter and delight is so exhilliarating! But then I trip and stumble and begin to fall headlong into the dirt...but it never happens. Before I hit the ground, I'm caught up in His arms, stood right, brushed off, then like a shot, He is off again!...beconning me to continue. He is always in my daily thoughts.

When I think of the Holy Spirit, I sense the presence of God around, in and throughout me. Even when I don't open dialogue with God, there is God. I've been in some pretty precarious situations in my life that frankly, I should not have survived...yet something intervened, and I am here today. One tell tale sign of the presence of the Holy Spirit is the sense of calm and peace, that prevails during the craziest of times...that never recedes despite the situation.

I don't think numbers make for a good argument, especially since Jesus speaks of the "few". And I have always had great difficulty coming to terms with the history of the RC church. It is not pretty reading, and I do not see how God would entrust The Faith to such an institution.

Well, considering that Jesus may be talking about the whole of humanity (from the beginning), the "few" may be a few billion souls.

Even today, although I think there have been many good men in the RC church, do you feel comfortable with the level of political appointments, displays of great wealth, adherence to rites without personal faith, sexual immorality, etc?

Are you talking about the church or the few within that are subject to failure?

If I were to judge the United States on a couple of idiots that held the office of president...

Great wealth, and greater charity giving (the MOST of any religious organization in the world by far). Sexual immorality? Look at your neighbor next door (look at the people you live with day to day). Look at your TV shows, and movies. You think any human is immune to the crap we're subjected to? God is stronger, but man is the weak link. Political appointments? What? Would you prefer the godless judge? Do you really want to be the old woman who has to nag forever until justice is done? Adherence to rites without personal faith? What do you mean? What is your reference to this statement?

I'm not sure anymore if this thread is on faith or politics...but I've pointed out my understanding and belief in the Trinity of God. I'm truly sorry for those who do not share a similar relationship with God...you're missing out on something wonderful.

But, that is your call.

v/r

Q

[kenod]

The way you describe your relationship with the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is inspiring. I think all genuine Christians should feel the way you do. I would only add that I pray to the Father and Jesus Christ interchangeably because I believe they are one and the same. Actually, I am praying to the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, at the same time. Jesus Christ is the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit (Mat 28:19).

I am currently reading "Hunted Heretic", the story of Michael Servetus who was burnt to death in 1553 for saying what I just said. Strange to think that if we'd lived back then you might have been lighting my pyre ... rather than patiently posting polite messages!