The Trinity of Christianity - Page 3

mee · 07-29-2006, 06:41 PM

Where did this complex Trinity teaching originate? The Christian Century, in its May 20-27, 1998, issue, quotes a pastor who acknowledges that the Trinity is "a teaching of the church rather than a teaching of Jesus." Even though the Trinity is not a teaching of Jesus, is it consistent with what he taught?

BlaznFattyz · 07-29-2006, 11:54 PM

actually it is the teaching of the holy spirit. although one can deduce it from scripture, it is reaffirmed by the spirit of god, and how he has revealed himself. the church does the work of the spirit, therefore it teaches the true nature of god and does the work of christ, for the glory of god. before christ was born, many had already known of him through the spirit.

kenod · 07-30-2006, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mee

Even though the Trinity is not a teaching of Jesus, is it consistent with what he taught?

Not when you understand Jesus was both human and divine. Where it sounds like he is speaking of another, separate from Himself, he is speaking in his human capacity - as when he was praying in Gethsemane.

The disciples and early Jewish Christians had no concept of a Trinity. They understood the language of Jesus within the bounds of One God.

It is only through inferential reasoning that one can derive the doctrine of the Trinity from the NT. It is not taught explicitly at all. It evolved gradually over 100's of years, so it is difficult to dismiss the idea that the "trinity" was not influenced by the prevailing culture of multiple gods.

mee · 07-30-2006, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenod

Not when you understand Jesus was both human and divine. Where it sounds like he is speaking of another, separate from Himself, he is speaking in his human capacity - as when he was praying in Gethsemane.

The disciples and early Jewish Christians had no concept of a Trinity. They understood the language of Jesus within the bounds of One God.

It is only through inferential reasoning that one can derive the doctrine of the Trinity from the NT. It is not taught explicitly at all. It evolved gradually over 100's of years, so it is difficult to dismiss the idea that the "trinity" was not influenced by the prevailing culture of multiple gods.

yes i agree , it stems from beliefs about many gods , so i can see that the bible does not teach the trinity, and neither did Jesus.

Quahom1 · 07-30-2006, 10:27 PM

The "Trinity" is quite Biblical. It has been shown and explained and shown and explained over and over again. I will (for the cheap seats), point out the one pivatol, and physically specific spot wherein all three of the Trinity were present "in front of man". After Jesus emerged from the Jordan river's waters and baptism. There was Jesus, there was the voice of God the Father from above, and there was the Holy Spirit. All were present to the witnesses "at the same exact moment in time".

Explain away those descriptions of the event...you can't.

v/r

Q

Quahom1 · 07-30-2006, 10:41 PM

Here is one set more for the "cheap seats": But I doubt you'll read them all, (or any of them), because they go directly against your doctrine, and history shows you refuse to consider things that might contradict your own "belief" (lol), none the less it is biblical scripture at face value, not interpretation. (Part One)

Colour Coding:
Red = Father; Blue = Son; Green = Holy Spirit

Isaiah 48:16 "And now the Lord Godhas sent Me, and His Spirit." (verses 12-13 actually identify the speaker in v16 "ME" as being the creator YHWH. Jesus what actually was sent, is called the creator in the New Testament: Jn 1:3; Col 1:16; Heb 1:10-12. The natural reading of Isa 48:16, is that the sender is the Father. The Jews simply had no way to explain how both the sender and the one sent (ME) could both be YHWH. This is a good example of doctrinal development between the Old and New Testament. Christians can easily make sense of the passage! So Isa 48:16 has YHWH sending another who is also YHWH. Of course Trinitarians know that all three members of the Godhead are called "YHWH". Anti-Trinitarians, can do no better than the Jews in explaining how the send and the one sent are both called YHWH in Isa 48:16! Combined with Isa 61:1, it is clear that the ME is Jesus!)

Isaiah 61:1: "The Spirit of the Lord God is uponme, Because the Lord (YHWH) has anointedme To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners; " (This is a certified triadic passage because Jesus applied the text to Himself in Luke 4:18-30)

Isaiah 63:8-10: "For He said, "Surely, they are My people, Sons who will not deal falsely."So He became their Savior. In all their affliction He was afflicted, And the angel of His presence [lit: face] saved them; In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them, And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old.But they rebelled And grieved His Holy Spirit" (The angel of His face is YHWH himself not a created angel: Ex 23:14-15, 20-23; 14:19; Num 20:16; Ex 33:12. Trinitarians expect to find this kind of passage in the Old Testament, that would not be fully understood until the mystery was revealed about the Trinity in the New Testament.)

Matthew 3:13-17; Luke 3:21-22: After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water;and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."

Matthew 28:19: "baptizing them in the name of the Fatherand the Sonand the Holy Spirit"

Luke 1:35: "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God. "

Luke 4:1-12: "Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led around by the Spirit in the wilderness for forty days, … Jesus answered him, "It is written , ‘You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only."

John 14:16: "I will askthe Father , and He will give youanother Helper , that He may be with you forever"

John 20:21-22: "So Jesus said to them again, " Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you." And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit ."

Acts 1:7-8: "He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochswhich the Father has fixed by His own authority ; but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you

Acts 2:33: "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Fatherthe promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forththis which you both see and hear. "

Acts 2:38-39: "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

Acts 5:30-32: "The God of our fathersraised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross... "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him."

Acts 7:55: "But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God"
"So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria enjoyed peace, being built up; and going on in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it continued to increase." (Acts 9:31)

Acts 10:38: "You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Himwith the Holy Spirit and with power"

Acts 10:44-48: "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message … and exalting God … And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

Acts 11:15-17: "the Holy Spirit fell upon them … Therefore God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also afterbelieving in the Lord Jesus Christ?"

Acts 15:8-11: "And God, who knows the heart, testified to themgiving them the Holy Spirit … we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus"

Acts 20:27-28: "For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God. "Be on guard … for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. "

Acts 28:25-31: "The Holy Spirit rightly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to your fathers … this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles … preaching the kingdom of God andteaching concerning the Lord Jesus Christ"

Romans 1:1-4: "Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, concerning His Son, … who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, "

Romans 5:5-6: "the love of God has been poured out within our heartsthrough the Holy Spirit who was given to us. For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. "

Romans 8:2-4: "For the law of the Spirit of lifein Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. … God … sendingHis own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh … walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. "

Romans 8:9 "indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. "

Romans 8:14-17: "For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. … you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of Godand fellow heirs with Christ"

Romans 8:26-30: "In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness … the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words… God causes all things to work together for good … predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son"

Romans 15:16: "to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, ministering as a priest the gospel of God, so that my offering of the Gentiles may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit. "

Quahom1 · 07-30-2006, 10:47 PM

This is part two (yes it is not encouraged to post so much cut and paste, but I rarely do it, and this is a belief of such paramount to the majority of Christianity, that I find this occasion to use one of my "bad boy, don't do it again" markers... As is quite obvious. The Trinity is often spoken of, often referred to and often quoted as viable. This by the way is for those that want to know, not those that could care less...

Colour Coding:
Red = Father; Blue = Son; Green = Holy Spirit

1 Corinthians 2:2-5: "For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified… in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith would … rest on the power of God."

1 Corinthians 6:11: "inherit the kingdom of God. … you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christand in the Spirit of our God."

1 Corinthians 12:4-6: "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. "

1 Corinthians 12:11-12,18: "But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. … But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired."

2 Corinthians 1:21-22: "Now He who establishes us with you in Christand anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge. "

2 Corinthians 3:3-4: "written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God … Such confidence we have through Christtoward God."

2 Corinthians 13:14 "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all."

Galatians 3:1-5: "Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified … does He who provides youwith the Spirit and works miracles among you"

Galatians 3:14: "The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith … in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

Galatians 4:4-6: "God sent forthHis Son … God has sent forththe Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

Ephesians 1:3-13: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, " … "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace " … "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, "

Ephesians 2:18: "for through Him we both have our accessin one Spiritto the Father. "

Ephesians 2:19-22: "God’s household … Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone … a holy temple in the Lord … dwelling of Godin the Spirit."

Ephesians 3:16-17: "that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith"

Ephesians 4:4-6: "one Spirit …one Lord … one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all."

Ephesians 4:30-32: "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption … forgiving each other, just as Godin Christ also has forgiven you."

Ephesians 5:18-20: "be filled with the Spirit … singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord; always giving thanks for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christto God, even the Father"

1 Thessalonians 1:3-6: "hope in our Lord Jesus Christin the presence of our God and Father …in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction … with the joy of the Holy Spirit"

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14: "always give thanks to God … beloved by the Lord … sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth …the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. "

Titus 3:4-6: "the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, … according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richlythrough Jesus Christ our Savior"

Hebrews 2:3-4: "salvation first spoken through the Lord … God also testifying … gifts of the Holy Spirit"

Hebrews 9:14: "how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spiritoffered Himself without blemish to God"

Hebrews 10:29-31: "trampled under foot the Son of God … has insulted the Spirit of grace … It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. "

1 Peter 1:2: "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood"

1 Peter 3:18: "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust,so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; "

1 Peter 4:14: "If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of gloryand of God rests on you. "

1 John 3:23-24: "we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ …He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us."

1 John 4:2: "By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the fleshis from God"

1 John 4:13-14: "He has given us of His Spirit. We have seen and testify that the Father has sentthe Son to be the Savior of the world. "

Jude 20-21: "praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life. "

kenod · 07-31-2006, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

There was Jesus, there was the voice of God the Father from above, and there was the Holy Spirit. All were present to the witnesses "at the same exact moment in time". Explain away those descriptions of the event...you can't.
Q

Your understanding means you believe in three separate gods: one in heaven, one in the air, and one on the earth.

I have no desire to "explain away" the event ... but perhaps John can help you to understand it.

John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Simply put, the one God is not only omnipotent, and omniscient, ... He is also omnipresent.

Quahom1 · 07-31-2006, 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenod

Your understanding means you believe in three separate gods: one in heaven, one in the air, and one on the earth.

I have no desire to "explain away" the event ... but perhaps John can help you to understand it.

John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Simply put, the one God is not only omnipotent, and omniscient, ... He is also omnipresent.

Are we like, on the same page?, or are you telling me I am mistaken?

Oh, and welcome to CR ;-)

Quahom1 · 07-31-2006, 03:26 AM

There is but ONE GOD, three manifestations. and a bunch of ways that man in his limited intelligence can express or identify or justify the concept.

I think that is pretty clear.

lunamoth · 07-31-2006, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas

The Trinity is only 'logical' (or otherwise) when one is outside, looking in.

In the same way 'love' is only logical (or otherwise), if one has never been in love.

When in love, or in the Trinity (which in essence is the same thing) one transcends logic.

Love needs a Subject (the one who loves) and an Object (that which is loved) and a medium of relation (love itself).

Simply put, Trinitarian Christianity holds that it is a mistake to assume that God did not love until He made something to love ... God did not make the world, and make 'love' to go along with it, nor make the world and suddenly realised that He never knew He could love, until He made it.

Trinitarians hold that God is Love, that the Subject loved before there was anything to love, therefore the nature of the subject is Love itself ... but here's a problem, how can love be a Divine Quality and not be? For if God is Love potentially, but not actively, then God is not perfect, in that He is not all that He can possibly be, then we must ask what prevents God from being all that He can be ... A thing cannot be all that it is and not be all that it is simultaneously (the First Proof of St Thomas Aquinas, following Aristotle) ... so as God is, love is ... and that love is God himself, whom was made known to us in the Incarnation of the Son, the knowing of God of Himself "All things are delivered to me of my Father" (Luke 10:22) and the Spirit is the Life of the Son in the Father, which is of the Son but not the Son, but everything the Son is; and the Spirit is the Life of the Father in the Son, which is of the Father but not the Father, but everything the Father is ... so the Spirit is not the Father and nor the Son, but is everything that the Father and the Son is...

And thus Father and Son and Spirit are Three, (subject, object, and relation) and One (activity), from all eternally ...

"Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works." (John 14:10)

Love is the medium that holds everything together (the law of attraction, which itself cannot be explained) ... when you are in love, you are in the medium, your being is suffused with it, the whole world is sparkles with it, in fact when you fall in love, the world is made anew ... and when in the Trinity, you are in the Source, you are with the Maker, witness to that eternal act of Creation.

But when we are in ourselves, love becomes mere utility.

Sorry, in lyricial mode again...

Thomas

Excellent post, Thomas. I like the lyrical mode.

This bit from your follow-up post also got my attention (bolding mine):

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas

... the doctrine of the Trinity is the Revelation that offers an answer the dilemma of the world and the tragedy of the human condition - and of individual being - it unites Absolute Transcendence and Absolute Immanence without sacrificing either - it allows both succession (time/space) and simultaneity (being) - in a world that is in each moment fallen, and yet recovered, not just individually, but collectively ... it is the only doctrine I know that accounts for the real Union of spirit and matter - of the longing for God, in human history, and of His unfolding, in a Salvation History that must necesarily embrace all people collectively and not just individually (what man would see himself saved and his neighbour lost?).

What the Spirit will unfold before us in time and space, is already here in us because we are in Him.

"Into thy hands I commend my spirit"

In Him we live and move and have our being ... God sees us all, uniquely and individually as manifesting his Glory, a Glory that is ours when we are hid in Him...

Here's another trinity:

Quote:

7Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son[b] into the world that we might live through him. 10This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for[c] our sins. 11Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us. (1 John 4)

God loves us; we love each other; we love God.

2 c,
luna

BlaznFattyz · 07-31-2006, 05:03 AM

king david being filled with the holy spirit said, My Lord (the father) said to my Lord (the son).

moses seeing the burning bush (holy spirit) went up to the mountain and god (the son) who wanted moses to personally know him and reveal himself, the true god, called him and the holy of holies was present there (god the father) and the ground where moses stood was holy (description of the temple).

kenod · 07-31-2006, 07:40 AM

[quote=Quahom1]Are we like, on the same page?, or are you telling me I am mistaken? Oh, and welcome to CR ;-)[quote=Quahom1]

Thank you.

No, we are not on the same page … or if we are, we sure ain’t reading it the same way!

I believe in One God, revealed in three different manifestations, or roles, or offices. Not like father and mother and child are one family, but like I am a father, a son and a husband - one person.

I am often grouped with that heretic Sabellius … or Servetus … or the Apostle Paul!!!

You said: :
Anti-Trinitarians, can do no better than the Jews in explaining how the sender and the one sent are both called YHWH in Isa 48:16!

They are both called YHWH (Jehovah) because the sender is the Father, and the “one sent” is Jesus Christ … and Jesus Christ is the Father dwelling in human flesh. "God was manifest in the flesh” (1 Tim 3:16); “the Father that dwelleth in me” (John 14:10).

Whether you call him George Bush, Mr President, or Commander-in-chief, he is still the same person.

mee · 07-31-2006, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

The "Trinity" is quite Biblical. It has been shown and explained and shown and explained over and over again. I will (for the cheap seats), point out the one pivatol, and physically specific spot wherein all three of the Trinity were present "in front of man". After Jesus emerged from the Jordan river's waters and baptism. There was Jesus, there was the voice of God the Father from above, and there was the Holy Spirit. All were present to the witnesses "at the same exact moment in time".

Explain away those descriptions of the event...you can't.

v/r

Q

at Jesus baptism. The heavens were opened to Jesus, and a voice said: "This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved." Whose voice was that? Jesus’ own voice? Of course not! It was God’s. Clearly, Jesus is God’s Son, not God himself, as some people claim. Matthew 3:13-17; Luke 3:21-23; 1:34-36, 44; 2:10-14; John 1:32-34; Hebrews 10:5-9 yes the heavens were opened up to Jesus ,
as Jesus is baptized. ‘The heavens are opened up’ to him. What does this mean? Evidently it means that while he is being baptized, the memory of his prehuman life in heaven returns to him. so,Jesus now fully recalls his life as a spirit son of Jehovah God, including all the things that God spoke to him in heaven during his prehuman existence.

Quahom1 · 08-01-2006, 12:42 AM

[quote=kenod][quote=Quahom1]Are we like, on the same page?, or are you telling me I am mistaken? Oh, and welcome to CR ;-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Thank you.

No, we are not on the same page … or if we are, we sure ain’t reading it the same way!

I believe in One God, revealed in three different manifestations, or roles, or offices. Not like father and mother and child are one family, but like I am a father, a son and a husband - one person.

I am often grouped with that heretic Sabellius … or Servetus … or the Apostle Paul!!!

You said: :
Anti-Trinitarians, can do no better than the Jews in explaining how the sender and the one sent are both called YHWH in Isa 48:16!

They are both called YHWH (Jehovah) because the sender is the Father, and the “one sent” is Jesus Christ … and Jesus Christ is the Father dwelling in human flesh. "God was manifest in the flesh” (1 Tim 3:16); “the Father that dwelleth in me” (John 14:10).

Whether you call him George Bush, Mr President, or Commander-in-chief, he is still the same person.

Well...

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Now, to you think we are on the same page?

v/r

Q

07-29-2006, 06:41 PM	#31 (permalink)
mee Executive Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 4,560	Re: The Trinity of Christianity Where did this complex Trinity teaching originate? The Christian Century, in its May 20-27, 1998, issue, quotes a pastor who acknowledges that the Trinity is "a teaching of the church rather than a teaching of Jesus." Even though the Trinity is not a teaching of Jesus, is it consistent with what he taught?

07-29-2006, 11:54 PM	#32 (permalink)
BlaznFattyz Executive Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 1,388	Re: The Trinity of Christianity actually it is the teaching of the holy spirit. although one can deduce it from scripture, it is reaffirmed by the spirit of god, and how he has revealed himself. the church does the work of the spirit, therefore it teaches the true nature of god and does the work of christ, for the glory of god. before christ was born, many had already known of him through the spirit.

07-30-2006, 10:27 PM	#35 (permalink)
Quahom1 What was the question? Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Maryland Posts: 7,477	Re: The Trinity of Christianity The "Trinity" is quite Biblical. It has been shown and explained and shown and explained over and over again. I will (for the cheap seats), point out the one pivatol, and physically specific spot wherein all three of the Trinity were present "in front of man". After Jesus emerged from the Jordan river's waters and baptism. There was Jesus, there was the voice of God the Father from above, and there was the Holy Spirit. All were present to the witnesses "at the same exact moment in time". Explain away those descriptions of the event...you can't. v/r Q

07-30-2006, 10:41 PM	#36 (permalink)
Quahom1 What was the question? Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Maryland Posts: 7,477	Re: The Trinity of Christianity Here is one set more for the "cheap seats": But I doubt you'll read them all, (or any of them), because they go directly against your doctrine, and history shows you refuse to consider things that might contradict your own "belief" (lol), none the less it is biblical scripture at face value, not interpretation. (Part One) Colour Coding: Red = Father; Blue = Son; Green = Holy Spirit Isaiah 48:16 "And now the Lord Godhas sent Me, and His Spirit." (verses 12-13 actually identify the speaker in v16 "ME" as being the creator YHWH. Jesus what actually was sent, is called the creator in the New Testament: Jn 1:3; Col 1:16; Heb 1:10-12. The natural reading of Isa 48:16, is that the sender is the Father. The Jews simply had no way to explain how both the sender and the one sent (ME) could both be YHWH. This is a good example of doctrinal development between the Old and New Testament. Christians can easily make sense of the passage! So Isa 48:16 has YHWH sending another who is also YHWH. Of course Trinitarians know that all three members of the Godhead are called "YHWH". Anti-Trinitarians, can do no better than the Jews in explaining how the send and the one sent are both called YHWH in Isa 48:16! Combined with Isa 61:1, it is clear that the ME is Jesus!) Isaiah 61:1: "The Spirit of the Lord God is uponme, Because the Lord (YHWH) has anointedme To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners; " (This is a certified triadic passage because Jesus applied the text to Himself in Luke 4:18-30) Isaiah 63:8-10: "For He said, "Surely, they are My people, Sons who will not deal falsely."So He became their Savior. In all their affliction He was afflicted, And the angel of His presence [lit: face] saved them; In His love and in His mercy He redeemed them, And He lifted them and carried them all the days of old.But they rebelled And grieved His Holy Spirit" (The angel of His face is YHWH himself not a created angel: Ex 23:14-15, 20-23; 14:19; Num 20:16; Ex 33:12. Trinitarians expect to find this kind of passage in the Old Testament, that would not be fully understood until the mystery was revealed about the Trinity in the New Testament.) Matthew 3:13-17; Luke 3:21-22: After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water;and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased." Matthew 28:19: "baptizing them in the name of the Fatherand the Sonand the Holy Spirit" Luke 1:35: "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God. " Luke 4:1-12: "Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led around by the Spirit in the wilderness for forty days, … Jesus answered him, "It is written , ‘You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only." John 14:16: "I will askthe Father , and He will give youanother Helper , that He may be with you forever" John 20:21-22: "So Jesus said to them again, " Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you." And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit ." Acts 1:7-8: "He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochswhich the Father has fixed by His own authority ; but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you Acts 2:33: "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Fatherthe promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forththis which you both see and hear. " Acts 2:38-39: "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself." Acts 5:30-32: "The God of our fathersraised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross... "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him." Acts 7:55: "But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God" "So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria enjoyed peace, being built up; and going on in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it continued to increase." (Acts 9:31) Acts 10:38: "You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Himwith the Holy Spirit and with power" Acts 10:44-48: "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message … and exalting God … And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Acts 11:15-17: "the Holy Spirit fell upon them … Therefore God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also afterbelieving in the Lord Jesus Christ?" Acts 15:8-11: "And God, who knows the heart, testified to themgiving them the Holy Spirit … we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus" Acts 20:27-28: "For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God. "Be on guard … for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. " Acts 28:25-31: "The Holy Spirit rightly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to your fathers … this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles … preaching the kingdom of God andteaching concerning the Lord Jesus Christ" Romans 1:1-4: "Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, concerning His Son, … who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, " Romans 5:5-6: "the love of God has been poured out within our heartsthrough the Holy Spirit who was given to us. For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. " Romans 8:2-4: "For the law of the Spirit of lifein Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. … God … sendingHis own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh … walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. " Romans 8:9 "indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. " Romans 8:14-17: "For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. … you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of Godand fellow heirs with Christ" Romans 8:26-30: "In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness … the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words… God causes all things to work together for good … predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son" Romans 15:16: "to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, ministering as a priest the gospel of God, so that my offering of the Gentiles may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit. "

07-30-2006, 10:47 PM	#37 (permalink)
Quahom1 What was the question? Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Maryland Posts: 7,477	Re: The Trinity of Christianity This is part two (yes it is not encouraged to post so much cut and paste, but I rarely do it, and this is a belief of such paramount to the majority of Christianity, that I find this occasion to use one of my "bad boy, don't do it again" markers... As is quite obvious. The Trinity is often spoken of, often referred to and often quoted as viable. This by the way is for those that want to know, not those that could care less... Colour Coding: Red = Father; Blue = Son; Green = Holy Spirit 1 Corinthians 2:2-5: "For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified… in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith would … rest on the power of God." 1 Corinthians 6:11: "inherit the kingdom of God. … you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christand in the Spirit of our God." 1 Corinthians 12:4-6: "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. " 1 Corinthians 12:11-12,18: "But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. … But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired." 2 Corinthians 1:21-22: "Now He who establishes us with you in Christand anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge. " 2 Corinthians 3:3-4: "written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God … Such confidence we have through Christtoward God." 2 Corinthians 13:14 "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all." Galatians 3:1-5: "Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified … does He who provides youwith the Spirit and works miracles among you" Galatians 3:14: "The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith … in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." Galatians 4:4-6: "God sent forthHis Son … God has sent forththe Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" Ephesians 1:3-13: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, " … "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace " … "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, " Ephesians 2:18: "for through Him we both have our accessin one Spiritto the Father. " Ephesians 2:19-22: "God’s household … Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone … a holy temple in the Lord … dwelling of Godin the Spirit." Ephesians 3:16-17: "that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith" Ephesians 4:4-6: "one Spirit …one Lord … one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all." Ephesians 4:30-32: "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption … forgiving each other, just as Godin Christ also has forgiven you." Ephesians 5:18-20: "be filled with the Spirit … singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord; always giving thanks for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christto God, even the Father" 1 Thessalonians 1:3-6: "hope in our Lord Jesus Christin the presence of our God and Father …in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction … with the joy of the Holy Spirit" 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14: "always give thanks to God … beloved by the Lord … sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth …the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. " Titus 3:4-6: "the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, … according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richlythrough Jesus Christ our Savior" Hebrews 2:3-4: "salvation first spoken through the Lord … God also testifying … gifts of the Holy Spirit" Hebrews 9:14: "how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spiritoffered Himself without blemish to God" Hebrews 10:29-31: "trampled under foot the Son of God … has insulted the Spirit of grace … It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. " 1 Peter 1:2: "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood" 1 Peter 3:18: "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust,so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; " 1 Peter 4:14: "If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of gloryand of God rests on you. " 1 John 3:23-24: "we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ …He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us." 1 John 4:2: "By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the fleshis from God" 1 John 4:13-14: "He has given us of His Spirit. We have seen and testify that the Father has sentthe Son to be the Savior of the world. " Jude 20-21: "praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life. "

07-31-2006, 03:26 AM	#40 (permalink)
Quahom1 What was the question? Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Maryland Posts: 7,477	Re: The Trinity of Christianity There is but ONE GOD, three manifestations. and a bunch of ways that man in his limited intelligence can express or identify or justify the concept. I think that is pretty clear.

07-31-2006, 05:03 AM	#42 (permalink)
BlaznFattyz Executive Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 1,388	Re: The Trinity of Christianity king david being filled with the holy spirit said, My Lord (the father) said to my Lord (the son). moses seeing the burning bush (holy spirit) went up to the mountain and god (the son) who wanted moses to personally know him and reveal himself, the true god, called him and the holy of holies was present there (god the father) and the ground where moses stood was holy (description of the temple).

07-31-2006, 07:40 AM	#43 (permalink)
kenod "to live is Christ" Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 307	Re: The Trinity of Christianity [quote=Quahom1]Are we like, on the same page?, or are you telling me I am mistaken? Oh, and welcome to CR ;-)[quote=Quahom1] Thank you. No, we are not on the same page … or if we are, we sure ain’t reading it the same way! I believe in One God, revealed in three different manifestations, or roles, or offices. Not like father and mother and child are one family, but like I am a father, a son and a husband - one person. I am often grouped with that heretic Sabellius … or Servetus … or the Apostle Paul!!! You said: : Anti-Trinitarians, can do no better than the Jews in explaining how the sender and the one sent are both called YHWH in Isa 48:16! They are both called YHWH (Jehovah) because the sender is the Father, and the “one sent” is Jesus Christ … and Jesus Christ is the Father dwelling in human flesh. "God was manifest in the flesh” (1 Tim 3:16); “the Father that dwelleth in me” (John 14:10). Whether you call him George Bush, Mr President, or Commander-in-chief, he is still the same person.

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