The Ten Commandments (How is it Love

[Aquinas]

Do you think that if you summarize the whole ten commandment, it's basically Love men and God?

[Dondi]

Yep, that's what Jesus basically said in Matthew 22:36-40:

36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?


37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38This is the first and great commandment.

39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The ten commandments, upon a closer look, appears to be divided into two sections: those commandments dealing with our relationship with God (Thou shall have no other gods before me, Thou shal not take the name of the Lord in vain, etc) and our relationship with each other (Thou shall not steal, thou shall not kill, honor thy father and mother, etc). So it's all aboyt our relationship with God and man. Everything else in the bible are teachings of how to do this.

[Aquinas]

Yea I kind of figured that out, but your help has enlighten me thakn you. Also the Ten commandments can be symbolic with our relationship with God. When we break the ten commandments we break our relationship with God and man. The only way we can reconcile that relationship is Grace or the atoning sacrifice which is from Jesus. But here is one thing that troubles me..
Since all of us have sinned and fell short in the glory of God, it means all of us had broken the relationship between us and God. This means sin, or seperation from God. To recieve grace is through faith and repentance. Is repentance a gift from God? Does it happen when we witness the kindess of God that can lead us to repentance?

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Aquinas

Yea I kind of figured that out, but your help has enlighten me thakn you. Also the Ten commandments can be symbolic with our relationship with God. When we break the ten commandments we break our relationship with God and man. The only way we can reconcile that relationship is Grace or the atoning sacrifice which is from Jesus. But here is one thing that troubles me..
Since all of us have sinned and fell short in the glory of God, it means all of us had broken the relationship between us and God. This means sin, or seperation from God. To recieve grace is through faith and repentance. Is repentance a gift from God? Does it happen when we witness the kindess of God that can lead us to repentance?

Well, certainly God wants all men to repent, but I don't think He will violate our free will to do so. His invitation is open to all, but it's up to us to RSVP. Our faith comes into play when we get to the point of hopelessness, that is realizing that our condition of unrighteousness is such that we need God's introvention and humbly confess our dire need for forgiveness and change. Humbling ourselves involves stripping our pride and ego down so that God can work His redeptive work in our lives. He is merciful to forgive us and give us His Spirit to help us live according to His Word. He restores us whole and wipes our tears and guilt away. I think there is a state of grace that we need to be in continuously, relying God during every moment (which is hard to do sometimes), lest we fall back into our old pattern.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Aquinas

This means sin, or seperation from God. To recieve grace is through faith and repentance. Is repentance a gift from God? Does it happen when we witness the kindess of God that can lead us to repentance?

in my experience, there is a genuine sense of sorrow there. strictly between me & God. (neat stuff here) different from just being sorry for being mean to someone. it goes deeper- much deeper & in that sorrow, or Godly sorrow, i find peace & joy & my soul is flooded with the mercies & love of God.
repentance is an awesome thing & it is one way to connect us to the living God.
forgiveness to & from others will bring unity with people, but not everyone understands this.

i see the following 8 commandments is how to fulfill the first two & vice versa.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Aquinas

Yea I kind of figured that out, but your help has enlighten me thakn you. Also the Ten commandments can be symbolic with our relationship with God. When we break the ten commandments we break our relationship with God and man. The only way we can reconcile that relationship is Grace or the atoning sacrifice which is from Jesus. But here is one thing that troubles me..
Since all of us have sinned and fell short in the glory of God, it means all of us had broken the relationship between us and God. This means sin, or seperation from God. To recieve grace is through faith and repentance. Is repentance a gift from God? Does it happen when we witness the kindess of God that can lead us to repentance?

Nothing symbolic about it. Unlike the Jews (keepers of the law), Jesus simplified it for us. (Keep these two and you keep them all. But being man and flawed you can't, so look to me and I will help you keep them all, and if you can't keep them, I will cover your mistakes).

Didn't mean we could do as we pleased, just meant if we screw up while trying to do His will, He would cover the blemishes.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Nothing symbolic about it. Unlike the Jews (keepers of the law), Jesus simplified it for us. (Keep these two and you keep them all. But being man and flawed you can't, so look to me and I will help you keep them all, and if you can't keep them, I will cover your mistakes).

Didn't mean we could do as we pleased, just meant if we screw up while trying to do His will, He would cover the blemishes.

Well and simply put, Q.

[lunamoth]

I know, I don't usually write essays; hope you all don't mind. (Also, this is for Bruce DL).

17From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near." (Matt 4:17).

This is the heart of Christ’s Gospel, the Good News. Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near. And large portions of Jesus’ teachings were to tell us what the kingdom of heaven is like. What is it like? It’s unlike what we expect it to be. It is like a mustard seed. It is like yeast. Like treasure hidden in a field. Does it belong to the most powerful? To those who work the hardest? To the rich?

No. It belongs to the poor in spirit, to those who mourn, to the meek, to those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, to the merciful, to the pure in heart, the peacemakers, and to those who are persecuted for righteousness.

17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matt 5: 17-20)

So, Jesus, the Christ, did not come to abolish the law, not by one single stroke. What then are we to make of His teachings, which transformed nearly every one of the ten commandments as well as many of the purity laws that were subsequently revealed to Moses?

52He said to them, "Therefore every teacher of the law who has been instructed about the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old." (Matt 13:52)

The law is clearly valued as treasure, and we are assured that Jesus did not come to abolish the law. But, there is new treasure, and this treasure is linked to the Kingdom of Heaven. The new teachings show the law in a new way, a way that leads from life to eternal life. This is very clearly stated in the story of the rich young man.

16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?" 17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." 18"Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,'[d] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'[e]"
20"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"
21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"
26Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (Matt 19:16-26)

The young man went away sad because it is so very hard to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, to have eternal life. Note there is no indication that Jesus is talking about the afterlife here. There is the life given through the law; and then there is Something More.

In the Gospel of John we hear quite a lot about eternal life, and usually it is linked to belief in Jesus.

that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. (John 3:16)

So, this may mean that eternal life belongs to one who accepts Jesus as the Son of God. But, there is also something more. John shares what Jesus has to say about believing in Him:

44Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. 46I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.
47"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. 48There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. 49For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. 50I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say." (John 12: 44-50)

God’s command leads to eternal life. And what is that command?

12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. (John 15:12)

And in case we didn’t get it the first time:

17This is my command: Love each other. (John 15:17)

So, eternal life requires something more than the law. It requires belief in Jesus as the Son of God, which in turn means to obey God’s command to love each other. Pretty simple. So, what were all those teachings about in the Sermon on the Mount, and as recorded elsewhere in the Gospels? Was Jesus going against His word and changing the law?

No.

He was explaining how the law is about love. He was explaining how to achieve the Kingdom of heaven here on earth. Wide is the gate that leads to destruction, but the narrow gate of love leads to the Kingdom.

Don’t murder? Don’t even think bad thoughts about your brother.

Don’t commit adultery? Don’t even look at a woman in lust.

You’re allowed an eye for an eye? Yet you can choose to turn the other cheek. Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. Forgive.

The points most often brought up to illustrate that Jesus really did change the laws are his teachings about divorce and his healing on the Sabbath. But did He really change those laws, or did He just explain them in the light of compassion? By Hebrew law a man could divorce his wife if he became displeased with her (Deut 24:1). The life of a divorced woman on her own would be very harsh if she was not able to remarry. So Jesus explains, don’t choose that option unless there has been a serious breach in trust.

“So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

7"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?"
8Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. (Matt 19:6-8)

Keeping the Sabbath might easily be considered the most important of the commandments after the commandments to love God and neighbor. Did Jesus really break the Sabbath? No, on at least two accounts. First, and most straightforward, when Jesus and his disciples are picking grain to eat on the Sabbath, He compares Himself to the temple priests who “desecrate the day and yet are innocent” because they are obligated to perform the Sabbath sacrifice. Jesus refers his critics to the words of the prophet Hosea 6:6 “For I desire mercy, not sacrifice.” Thus, if mercy is even more desired by God than sacrifice, the healings performed by Jesus on the Sabbath are delightful to Him, and further Jesus is the priest. The teaching is again about love and compassion; the Spirit of the law which gives life as Paul would say.

But, there’s a second and more important thing to keep in mind about Jesus' teachings about the Sabbath. Deuteronomy 5:12 describes the commandment about observing the Sabbath.

12 "Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor the alien within your gates, so that your manservant and maidservant may rest, as you do. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day. (Deut 5:12-15)

Observing the Sabbath is three things. On one out of seven days you rest and do no work. You give your household a day of rest as well. And you remember that God freed you from bondage in Egypt. Apparently the Pharisees and other observant Jews had lost sight of this day of rest and instead made it a day of ritualistic rest. The hypocrisy of their actions is pointed out by Jesus when he describes how they will save a sheep from a pit on the Sabbath, and “how much more valuable is a man than a sheep? Therefore, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” Not a new teaching of the law, but an explanation of the law of love.

36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[b] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matt 22:36-40)

All of the laws have always been about love, but in part we lost sight of that. The teachings of Jesus revealed, uncovered, the love buried in the heart of the law. But, even with this good seed in hand we are too weak on our own to bring it to fruition. The crucifixion, death, and resurrection of Christ, the work done on the cross, plows the hard soil of our hearts so that seed can take root and flourish. So that we can realize the Kingdom of God that is near, within us (Luke 17:21)

peace,
lunamoth

[Devadatta]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I know, I don't usually write essays; hope you all don't mind. (Also, this is for Bruce DL).



This is the heart of Christ’s Gospel, the Good News. Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near. And large portions of Jesus’ teachings were to tell us what the kingdom of heaven is like. What is it like? It’s unlike what we expect it to be. It is like a mustard seed. It is like yeast. Like treasure hidden in a field. Does it belong to the most powerful? To those who work the hardest? To the rich?

No. It belongs to the poor in spirit, to those who mourn, to the meek, to those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, to the merciful, to the pure in heart, the peacemakers, and to those who are persecuted for righteousness.



So, Jesus, the Christ, did not come to abolish the law, not by one single stroke. What then are we to make of His teachings, which transformed nearly every one of the ten commandments as well as many of the purity laws that were subsequently revealed to Moses?



The law is clearly valued as treasure, and we are assured that Jesus did not come to abolish the law. But, there is new treasure, and this treasure is linked to the Kingdom of Heaven. The new teachings show the law in a new way, a way that leads from life to eternal life. This is very clearly stated in the story of the rich young man.


The young man went away sad because it is so very hard to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, to have eternal life. Note there is no indication that Jesus is talking about the afterlife here. There is the life given through the law; and then there is Something More.

In the Gospel of John we hear quite a lot about eternal life, and usually it is linked to belief in Jesus.



So, this may mean that eternal life belongs to one who accepts Jesus as the Son of God. But, there is also something more. John shares what Jesus has to say about believing in Him:


God’s command leads to eternal life. And what is that command?



And in case we didn’t get it the first time:



So, eternal life requires something more than the law. It requires belief in Jesus as the Son of God, which in turn means to obey God’s command to love each other. Pretty simple. So, what were all those teachings about in the Sermon on the Mount, and as recorded elsewhere in the Gospels? Was Jesus going against His word and changing the law?

No.

He was explaining how the law is about love. He was explaining how to achieve the Kingdom of heaven here on earth. Wide is the gate that leads to destruction, but the narrow gate of love leads to the Kingdom.

Don’t murder? Don’t even think bad thoughts about your brother.

Don’t commit adultery? Don’t even look at a woman in lust.

You’re allowed an eye for an eye? Yet you can choose to turn the other cheek. Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. Forgive.

The points most often brought up to illustrate that Jesus really did change the laws are his teachings about divorce and his healing on the Sabbath. But did He really change those laws, or did He just explain them in the light of compassion? By Hebrew law a man could divorce his wife if he became displeased with her (Deut 24:1). The life of a divorced woman on her own would be very harsh if she was not able to remarry. So Jesus explains, don’t choose that option unless there has been a serious breach in trust.





Keeping the Sabbath might easily be considered the most important of the commandments after the commandments to love God and neighbor. Did Jesus really break the Sabbath? No, on at least two accounts. First, and most straightforward, when Jesus and his disciples are picking grain to eat on the Sabbath, He compares Himself to the temple priests who “desecrate the day and yet are innocent” because they are obligated to perform the Sabbath sacrifice. Jesus refers his critics to the words of the prophet Hosea 6:6 “For I desire mercy, not sacrifice.” Thus, if mercy is even more desired by God than sacrifice, the healings performed by Jesus on the Sabbath are delightful to Him, and further Jesus is the priest. The teaching is again about love and compassion; the Spirit of the law which gives life as Paul would say.

But, there’s a second and more important thing to keep in mind about Jesus' teachings about the Sabbath. Deuteronomy 5:12 describes the commandment about observing the Sabbath.



Observing the Sabbath is three things. On one out of seven days you rest and do no work. You give your household a day of rest as well. And you remember that God freed you from bondage in Egypt. Apparently the Pharisees and other observant Jews had lost sight of this day of rest and instead made it a day of ritualistic rest. The hypocrisy of their actions is pointed out by Jesus when he describes how they will save a sheep from a pit on the Sabbath, and “how much more valuable is a man than a sheep? Therefore, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” Not a new teaching of the law, but an explanation of the law of love.



All of the laws have always been about love, but in part we lost sight of that. The teachings of Jesus revealed, uncovered, the love buried in the heart of the law. But, even with this good seed in hand we are too weak on our own to bring it to fruition. The crucifixion, death, and resurrection of Christ, the work done on the cross, plows the hard soil of our hearts so that seed can take root and flourish. So that we can realize the Kingdom of God that is near, within us (Luke 17:21)

peace,
lunamoth

Very nice, Luna. You know what matters, IMHO.

The passage on the sabath reminds me of the one having to do with pharisees withholding food from their parents to use for ritual purposes. Is this honoring your father & mother, he asks? (Your probably know where to find this.) Again, it's the contrast between mere law and what really matters, the love that powers it.

Sincerely,
Devadatta

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Devadatta

Very nice, Luna. You know what matters, IMHO.

The passage on the sabath reminds me of the one having to do with pharisees withholding food from their parents to use for ritual purposes. Is this honoring your father & mother, he asks? (Your probably know where to find this.) Again, it's the contrast between mere law and what really matters, the love that powers it.

Sincerely,
Devadatta

Agreed.
Jesus came to fulfill the law--one can observe the letter of the law without understanding the spirit of the law--action motivated by love.

Originally Posted by Jeremiah 31:31-34

31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

[lunamoth]

Thank you Deva and seattlegal.

peace,
lunamoth

[bananabrain]

we understand the ten commandments as being divided into two sections - those between human and human and those between humans and G!D. the first five are for G!D. the second five are for humans. interestingly, that makes the Sabbath and honouring your parents also about G!D rather than about humans. there is a lot of commentary about this.

incidentally, you should note that the actual ten are generally not the same ten by jews and christians. there is a good article on it in wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments

other than this, a lot of your arguments seem to me to hold up the "pharisees" as straw men - in fact there can be many other explanations for these applications of the law than the ones you give. i've also explained elsewhere the circumstances in which one can break the Sabbath and it seemed to me that the specific occasions mentioned in connection with jesus are highly arguable. perhaps they are case studies, rather than hard-and-fast examples of correct behaviour?

and, of course, we don't agree that this "new covenant" is christianity. jews understand this prophetic statement to be aimed at the sinning jews of the biblical period - the "new covenant" would refer to a time when jews took our laws seriously and carried them out correctly.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[lunamoth]

Hi Bananabrain,

Thank you for sharing your perspective and the wiki article.

I would agree that there are many other applications of the law, and I admit to not have studied any. I think I am obviously coming from a Christian perspective on this, such as from Wiki

Reformed and Anglicans have taught the abiding validity of the commandments, and call it a summation of the "moral law", binding on all people. However, they emphasize the union of the believer with Christ - so that the will and power to perform the commandments does not arise from the commandment itself, but from the gift of the Holy Spirit. Apart from this grace, the commandment is only productive of condemnation, according to this family of doctrine.

This is the tradition I was raised in, thus probably the main one permeating my psyche. I have to say though that I reject the idea that the commandments are 'only productive of condemnation' apart from the gift of the Holy Spirit. On the other had, I believe the Spirit is the motivator for all of us to follow the law, out of love of G-d and one another.

About the pharisees what you say also strikes me as true, although it is not just me holding them up to be strawmen, but the authors of the Gospels. I've always figured that the criticisms could not apply to all the observant Jews of the time, but to some subset. Certainly the same could be said about Christians of today, some of whom act quite pious while neglecting the needs of widows and orphans, etc. In fact, I'm sure that description applies to most of us to some extent.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

and, of course, we don't agree that this "new covenant" is christianity. jews understand this prophetic statement to be aimed at the sinning jews of the biblical period - the "new covenant" would refer to a time when jews took our laws seriously and carried them out correctly.

Of course!

peace,
lunamoth

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Hi Bananabrain,

Thank you for sharing your perspective and the wiki article.

I would agree that there are many other applications of the law, and I admit to not have studied any. I think I am obviously coming from a Christian perspective on this, such as from Wiki
This is the tradition I was raised in, thus probably the main one permeating my psyche. I have to say though that I reject the idea that the commandments are 'only productive of condemnation' apart from the gift of the Holy Spirit. On the other had, I believe the Spirit is the motivator for all of us to follow the law, out of love of G-d and one another.

About the pharisees what you say also strikes me as true, although it is not just me holding them up to be strawmen, but the authors of the Gospels. I've always figured that the criticisms could not apply to all the observant Jews of the time, but to some subset. Certainly the same could be said about Christians of today, some of whom act quite pious while neglecting the needs of widows and orphans, etc. In fact, I'm sure that description applies to most of us to some extent.



Of course!

peace,
lunamoth

I opine that if the the commandments were capable of being kept, "apart from the gift of the Holy Spirit", we would keep them. However this appears not to be the case, as Christ made it quite clear that if the commandments were broken in the mind's eye, then they were broken by a man, period.

On the other hand, I must vigorously agree with you concerning the "piety" of some Christians. They make me nauseated to be around them. Do you know this "false piety" I'm trying to describe?

In fact, the first time I met such, I garnered that their concept of "Christianity" was something I wanted nothing to do with. I even prayed to God, "don't ever let me be that way...I'd rather be something else if that is what Christianity is all about." For a time I wondered if one could follow Jesus, yet not be a Christian, or if the two had to go hand in hand (shudder to think). Fortunately He showed me the path I should take, instead of telling me to leave the fold.

I know at first it sounds like I'm judging (and in a way, I am), but I just do not want to live my life that way. So I told God all this, then asked Him to show me how to live (in such a way that I could live with myself). He did.

As far as Pharisees being strawmen, like any other group, there are bad apples in the barrel, but that does not make for the whole barrel to be spoiled. The Sanhedrin of that time in Jesus' life had enough bad apples to cause a whole lot of trouble. Their main goal was to stop this "usurper" from stealing their thunder, glory and power, as leaders. The majority wanted to just let things be, and a few actually attempted to confront and stop the driving force for Jesus' removal from the scene.

But analogous to the American revolution vs. the Colonial revolt, B-B will see things different than we do, in this area concerning Jesus, the priests, and all that "allegedly transpired".

The irony here is that the difference between Christianity and Judeasm, is a matter of interpretation of history of the times, and the resultant meanings.

I also find it ironic that Islam calls both Christians and Jews the people of "The Book", but their Qur'an does not contain any semblance of the literal translation (word for word), of the Old testament within their "book". Mostly the Qur'an concentrates on the morals as opposed to the literal stories. But I suppose that is food for another thread...

my thoughts

v/r

Q

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I opine that if the the commandments were capable of being kept, "apart from the gift of the Holy Spirit", we would keep them. However this appears not to be the case, as Christ made it quite clear that if the commandments were broken in the mind's eye, then they were broken by a man, period.

On the other hand, I must vigorously agree with you concerning the "piety" of some Christians. They make me nauseated to be around them. Do you know this "false piety" I'm trying to describe?

In fact, the first time I met such, I garnered that their concept of "Christianity" was something I wanted nothing to do with. I even prayed to God, "don't ever let me be that way...I'd rather be something else if that is what Christianity is all about." For a time I wondered if one could follow Jesus, yet not be a Christian, or if the two had to go hand in hand (shudder to think). Fortunately He showed me the path I should take, instead of telling me to leave the fold.

I know at first it sounds like I'm judging (and in a way, I am), but I just do not want to live my life that way. So I told God all this, then asked Him to show me how to live (in such a way that I could live with myself). He did.

As far as Pharisees being strawmen, like any other group, there are bad apples in the barrel, but that does not make for the whole barrel to be spoiled. The Sanhedrin of that time in Jesus' life had enough bad apples to cause a whole lot of trouble. Their main goal was to stop this "usurper" from stealing their thunder, glory and power, as leaders. The majority wanted to just let things be, and a few actually attempted to confront and stop the driving force for Jesus' removal from the scene.

But analogous to the American revolution vs. the Colonial revolt, B-B will see things different than we do, in this area concerning Jesus, the priests, and all that "allegedly transpired".

The irony here is that the difference between Christianity and Judeasm, is a matter of interpretation of history of the times, and the resultant meanings.

I also find it ironic that Islam calls both Christians and Jews the people of "The Book", but their Qur'an does not contain any semblance of the literal translation (word for word), of the Old testament within their "book". Mostly the Qur'an concentrates on the morals as opposed to the literal stories. But I suppose that is food for another thread...

my thoughts

v/r

Q

Good points all, Q. In my typical way, I agree with what you say about not being able to keep the commandments except by the help of the Spirit. What I disagree with is the idea that keeping the commandments leads to condemnation outside of Christianity. By the love of the Spirit we are motivated to keep the commandments, and by grace of God we are forgiven when our selfish desires, or our ignorance, get in the way of that.

Overtly pious people who then refuse to help another are irritating, and it is an easy trap to fall into. I think that sharing our stories and building each other up can help us stay out of that trap. But I also think about Bob x's points in the 'knowledge of good and evil' thread--we very often fail to comprehend all the unintended impact, for good and bad, our best intentions have on others. Perhaps this is a strength in keeping the law: it minimizes the mistakes we make when we have the best of intentions.

peace,
lunamoth