The State of Modern Judaism

[NewAgeNerd]

It has been said that there is a threat to Judaism today greater then there has ever been in the past. This is a threat greater than Pharoah, greater than Amalek, greater than Hamen, greater than the inquisition, greater even than Hitler. If this threat is allowed to continue unchecked, Judaism, a religion that has persisted for millenia, might dissapear in a few generations. Before I want to share my own opinions on this topic, I want to know your opinions. I would especially like to hear from liberal or secular Jews.


1) What Jewish group do you affiliate with? If non-orthodox, why? What is it that causes you to reject Rabbinical Judaism?
2) What is your opinion on assimilation?
3) How do you feel about intermarriage?

I realize these questions(especially the first one) might take some time to answer, so feel free to respond at length.

[bananabrain]

I would especially like to hear from liberal or secular Jews.

them's fightin' words, NaN!

i actually would say that it's not really legitimate for you to say "if non-orthodox, why?" - a lot of jews, as you very well know, have been brought up non-orthodox and that's normal for them. it was normal for me. i opted *in*, but on my own terms. and this:

What is it that causes you to reject Rabbinical Judaism?

is tendentious to a degree. back when i was in the (UK) reform, i didn't "reject rabbinical judaism", nor was i taught to. there was what my family did and what other families did and what people who were "orthodox" did. it was just how things appeared to be. everyone justifies themselves in their own way. your question implies that you consider that the "state of modern judaism" is largely because people aren't frum enough. i don't think that's the problem - or at least i don't think it's the biggest problem. you are essentially assuming that orthodoxy doesn't have to explain itself, when, in the open competition obtaining in the ideas market, it manifestly does.

you are obviously concerned about assimilation (as am i) and see intermarriage as a factor - as, also, do i. however, it may surprise you to hear that in my experience, what causes people to reject mainstream orthodoxy is the difficulty of conversion (for those in relationships with non-jews) and the general small-mindedness, closed-mindedness, parochialism and intolerance displayed by many who are supposedly orthodox or representatives of orthodoxy. i can tell you about two women of my experience who would have had orthodox conversions if the beit din had not been so machmir. what i am saying is that effectively, nowadays, there is more or less a dialogue of the deaf. if orthodoxy doesn't compete, it cannot complain about not winning. if it doesn't explain itself and reach out to those it prefers to exclude and excoriate, it has only itself to blame for not being able to communicate with those outside it.

my own experience is as someone who has chosen of my own free will to accept the binding of halacha and that which is implicit in Torah miSinai. my entry into this world has come at considerable cost and through considerable emotional pain. at every step, whenever i have come into contact with the official side of orthodoxy (at least the UK ashkenazic version of it) the experience has been exceedingly unpleasant. the beit din seems determined to punish people for the supposed sins of their parents or grandparents. it is all very well wringing your hands over how terrible assimilation and intermarriage is, but you have to offer an alternative. modern orthodoxy has to be modern as well as orthodox, not just continually kowtow to the haredi world. this is one of the reasons i'm so glad i had the sephardi route open to me.

so, how do i feel about assimilation? unsurprised. what would i do about it? attract people to *learn* - and not by giving supposed answers, like kiruv organisations like aish ha-torah and the jewish learning exchange, but by stimulating brains as well as hearts. limmud (http://www.limmud.org) is one excellent approach that i wholeheartedly recommend to counter assimilation. similarly, i recommend the "thinking person's orthodoxy", as exemplified by yakar (http://www.yakar.org.uk) and other such excellent groups, communities and movements that exist, such as yitz greenberg's "klal" in north america.

how do i feel about intermarriage? i think we need to be more realistic about it and, certainly where the mother is halachically jewish, ensure that the door remains open. this will only be done if the children of such a relationship feel that they can still become halachically observant without disrespecting their father.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[dauer]

Originally Posted by NewAgeNerd

1) What Jewish group do you affiliate with? If non-orthodox, why? What is it that causes you to reject Rabbinical Judaism?

I consider myself post-denominational. I think we should all embrace each other for who we are. I don't like the politics. And I think in reality people are more considered with the type of shul they pray in (egal or mechitza, English or Hebrew, etc.) than what particular dogma that shul aligns itself with. But when it does come to dogma I'm more Renewal/Reconstructionist. Go team!

2) What is your opinion on assimilation?

Every individual is free to do what they want to do. There's a big divide between the cultural Jews and the religious Jews (of all denominations.) I have no problem with assimilating outside ideas into Judaism, as has been done many times in the past when a new Truth is found that must be balanced with the revelatory one. As long as it doesn't run contrary to the most basic ideas of Judaism (and there is some gray area) I have no problem with such things and encourage it for those who need to do so in order to identify religiously with Judaism and be at peace with themselves. But based on the liberties taken by the kabbalistic authors, I'd say we can go pretty far.

3) How do you feel about intermarriage?

My girlfriend is a gentile. She also desires to convert. But this too is a personal decision. I do not agree with intermarried families. I think they should pick a religion and go with it. Be Jewish. Be Christian. Don't confuse your child with mixed symbols.

Dauer

[bananabrain]

I think in reality people are more considered with the type of shul they pray in (egal or mechitza, English or Hebrew, etc.) than what particular dogma that shul aligns itself with.

sounds about right to me.

Every individual is free to do what they want to do.

that's not an opinion!

I do not agree with intermarried families. I think they should pick a religion and go with it. Be Jewish. Be Christian. Don't confuse your child with mixed symbols.

i agree to a certain degree. obviously, i also favour conditions which will result in halachically jewish children! it's a funny thing, feeling demographic responsibility.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[didymus]

NAN, doesn't this premonition of a threat to the Jewish people contradict the expectation of a messiah?

My understanding of the messiah is that he will bring peace to the people of Israel, a renewed dedication to study of the Torah and a general attraction to the Jewish people ( by gentiles) as a source of wisdom.

[NewAgeNerd]

First off, sorry if I offended anyone, this topic was not meant to be confrontational. I had forgotten for a moment that a large portion of the world's jewery does not have any exposure to orthodoxy, and another large segment has had bad experiences. I agree that we should all embrace one another. Honestly, I was trying to do demographic work, and it came off as arrogant so once again I am sorry. I believe we should move beyond denominations. Judaism should be a continuum with every Jew striving each and every day to know more about Judaism and just to be better Jews/People. However, I am with bannabrain when it comes to the topic of intermarriage (When I was referring to assimilation, I really meant the assimilation of Jews into the non-Jewish world, though your point still stands dauer).

Didymus also raises an interesting question, but my response is that the arrival of the messiah almost certainly depends on the Jewish people being in imminent danger. Of course, throughout our entire history danger has always been imminent so that there is a threat to Judaism is not a new concept at all. Unfortunately, for perhaps the first time in history that threat is due to other Jews and not to some outside force. For the Messiah to save the Jewish people, they must be facing some great threat thus you can see how the time might be ripe for his arrival. I have read a number of authors who discuss biblical prophecies regarding the state of Judaism at the time of the Messiah and these prophecies foretell of a time when many of the Jewish people will have forgotten the Torah. The messiah will help to bring us back.

Honestly, If all Jews were living in solid Jewish communities or (G-d willing) Israel, assimliation would be a non-issue. It is only in the modern day with this worlds uber-suburbs and urban sprawl that a Jew can be the only Jew for miles around.

[dauer]

NaN, one comment. Okay, two comments. No no, three. Because first I want to clarify that for me personally I didn't find your post offensive in any way, although maybe a little naive. But if I am correct in assuming your are a very recent Baal Teshuva coming from an unreligious background who hasn't had much exposure to the Jewish world at large, then it make complete sense. If I am incorrect I need to learn to hold my tongue.

I had forgotten for a moment that a large portion of the world's jewery does not have any exposure to orthodoxy, and another large segment has had bad experiences.

And then there are the rest of us for whom there have been no bad experiences, there has been exposure, and Orthodoxy just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Like for me, since I see absolutely no reason to accept supernaturalism or the ideas presented in a biased historical document, or ancient moral standards that deny equal freedoms to all people and justify the hateful actions of our ancestors. By this I mean gays, polyamorists, women, etc. And by that I mean Amalek etc.

Didymus also raises an interesting question, but my response is that the arrival of the messiah almost certainly depends on the Jewish people being in imminent danger.

I thought it's either that or the opposite, and according to some that it's in our hands, based on the mitzvot we fulfill. That's what they were doing in Tzfat, trying to create the perfectly observant community in order to bring HaMoshiach, among other things. Weren't they? I could be wrong. Or wait, that's an even other way to bring the guy.

Unfortunately, for perhaps the first time in history that threat is due to other Jews and not to some outside force.

I know you're talking about assimilation. What about al-andalus? The Haskalah? It happens whenever Jews find a way to become comfortable in a society. When we're persecuted we become reactionary and inward. Pray for another ghetto if you really want Jews to become more Orthodox. We'd be forced to pray together and wouldn't argue over whose service to follow -- no time for interdenominational squabbles when the world is against us -- and the unobservant would return like atheists in a foxhole.

Honestly, If all Jews were living in solid Jewish communities or (G-d willing) Israel, assimliation would be a non-issue.

I don't know if you're aware of this but there are many, many secular Israelis. I've found some really hateful anti-religion music online from Israel. But in Israel the secular Jews know more because their culture is Jewish. And the religious Jews aren't all exactly tzadikim, some (not many and I'm not insinuating that) throwing rocks and bottles at mixed minyans at the kotel. There's nothing idyllic about Israel. This is an article about it:

http://archive.salon.com/news/featur...all/print.html

It is only in the modern day with this worlds uber-suburbs and urban sprawl that a Jew can be the only Jew for miles around.

I'm really not sure where you have lived but even the unobservant Jews I know settle in Jewish areas. Luckily for me the places are countless; Newton, Sharon, Brookline, okay maybe not countless. But I don't know of any Jews who settle away from other Jews. At the very least they have to exchange lokshn kugl recipes and have a place to send their kids to sunday school.


Dauer