The Shared Myth

[Nogodnomasters]

Quote: The Hebrews wrote their history as if it was astrological. Prophecy was based on astrology.

upon what do you base this claim? it runs counter to everything we believe, so it seems somewhat unlikely that the sages of the Talmud neglected to point this out if "clearly the Rabbis knew". are you aware of the multiplicity of views expressed about 'avdei kochavim u'mazalot, sometimes shortened to AKU"M? in many cases, this was amended by non-jewish censors or mistranslated as 'gentile'. either way, although [some of] the rabbis clearly knew a lot about astrology, its authority declined when, as you point out, we realised we had lost the power of prophecy, surviving only to the extent to which it remains within the mystical tradition. if the Torah was based on astrology and the sages believed this, you would have to show me where in the Talmud this is said.


Is is not what we believe that matters it is what they believed. The Babylonian Talmud has numerous astrological references, although they are mostly reffering to the planets. The references in the Talmud are mostly indirect. There is one direct statement that the reason why Jacob had 12 sons was because the zodiac has 12 signs. It goes on to claim Esau had 12 sons also. The stories in the Talmud explain the OT text in light of astrology. For instance, the tent scene of Noah is explained that in the talmud that Noah was "unmanned." This corresponds to other mythologies and fits in exactly with Orion, where the scene takes place. When The summer solstice moved from Leo in Cancer, stories were added Genesis to associate Abraham with Cancer. In the Midrash, there was a miracle birth story of Abraham similar to that of Jesus. This story is specific to the stars of Cancer. There is the "tail" of Adam. His tail or tail bone was supposed to have been what God used to make Eve, not a rib. Adam is Leo. The star Sarcam is the tail of Leo shared with Virgo (Eve). This same star is used in the Samson story when he shares his wife with his friend. Clearly the way the Jews wrote about the stories, providing mythological deatails which supports the astrological matrix would indicate they had detailed knowledge of the exact meaning of the stories well into second and third century AD when they would use zodiac mosaics on the floors of their temples.

The problem came when Israel was defeated by Rome mulitiple times and could not rule the age of Pisces as they had expected would happen. At this point the Rabbis broke ranks.

[bananabrain]

this is a similar phrase to "yoga" a "relinking" of the consciousness with the primordial consciousness.

exactly.

some sects of Zen use this method, called Koan, which is a deliberate contemplation of such seemingly nonsensical things

in judaism it's more *paradoxical* than nonsensical, partly because there is not the perceived need to separate oneself from one's previous unawakened state.

your tradition, from what i know of it, would seem to be more "near east" as it would be termed in the "west"

exactly. judaism isn't theology-led like christianity. it's more behavioural.

is the knowledge of good and evil knowledge of the Divine? i would presume that it's not free will and i'll presume that it's not sin, is that correct?

well, in the G of E story, knowledge of the Divine is taken for granted, as A&E converse with G!D on a regular basis. so i would say probably not. knowledge of good and evil is rather, i would say, knowledge of humanity - which, for angelic beings, would be more of a challenge, being limited by their lack of free-will.

actually, they don't it's what we term "expedient means" and is one of the teachings that are expounded in the Hinyana Tipitaka teachings. sometimes, students become confused by some of the words or they do not have the capacity to understand and actualize them completely. thus, expedient means are used to help people cross to the other shore.

ah, i get it - it's exactly like our "Na'ASeH Ve-NiShM'A" - 'we shall act first, but only ultimately will we understand".

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Stormdancer]

Vajradhara Namaste,

I loved your post especially this,

Quote,
in the Indian version it is the god himself that divides and becomes not man alone but all creation; so that everything is a manifestation of that single inhabiting divine substance: there is no other;

[I, Brian]

I agree - makes me imagine Fractal Geometry and the Mandelbrot Set. To my mind, possibly about the simplest way of viewing God in abstract.

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by Stormdancer

Vajradhara Namaste,

I loved your post especially this,

Quote,
in the Indian version it is the god himself that divides and becomes not man alone but all creation; so that everything is a manifestation of that single inhabiting divine substance: there is no other;

Namaste Stormdancer,

welcome to the forum.

i'm glad that you enjoyed the post

my intention was to give people a common frame of reference... though we may disagree on some of the particulars, as that common frame of reference is what actually permits a discussion without getting bogged down in pendantic details.

indeed... in this version.. there is no other... there is only one. we are deluded into a subject/object dichotomy by our conditioned sense experience and our emotional consciousness.

[bananabrain]

nogodnomasters -

i (and everyone who studies it) am aware that the Talmud mentions astrology quite often. likewise, kabbalistic texts like the Sefer Yetzirah also utilise astrological correspondences. however, it does not follow that because the sages were aware of astrology they therefore believed that the Torah was an astrological text! that's not how Talmudic logic works at all. many minority opinions, or incorrect opinions are stated, because it is important to record the arguments surrounding complex decisions. likewise, they often demonstrate their knowledge in order to make it clear that they are not dismissing things out of ignorance. indeed, one of the qualifications for becoming a member of the Sanhedrin is knowledge of idolatry, witchcraft, demonology, astrology and the occult - otherwise how can one make judgements in these matters?

The stories in the Talmud explain the OT text in light of astrology.

excuse me! firstly, even were that the whole story, that wouldn't mean it was the case. secondly, some opinions may very well do that in some cases, but for you to assume on the basis of this that all opinions are related to astrology is simply astounding, not to mention unbelievable. many of our sages through the ages have been experts in astrology, but i challenge you to show me evidence that there is one of them who as a result states authoritatively that the Torah or even the Talmud is astrological in its essential nature other than inasmuch as the planets are part of the Unity of the universe. obviously G!D as Creator would be responsible for the creation of planets and the astrological systems, but the jewish people's distinguishing characteristic is that we are not "'avdei kokhavim u'mazalot" (usually shortened to AKU"M) - worshippers of stars and fortune, which is the most common talmudic term for an *idolater!*

in other words, although some of the sages clearly indicate that the behaviour of the celestial bodies may give us clues about Divine judgement, it is very sticky ground and can be misleading. therefore, one must be suitably grounded before it is possible to appreciate the significance of stuff like kabbalistic astrology. the sages were not unaware of the attachment of the common people to this field, which is why they had strong opinions about it. later on, this becomes even more overt with text like maimonides' "epistle to yemen", where he castigates the community for having followed a false messiah who appeared to be astrologically favoured and reminds them that freewill requires us to be able to determine our own fate. the accepted talmudic opinion, in short, is that ein mazal l'yisrael, the stars do not determine a jew's destiny.

Clearly the way the Jews wrote about the stories, providing mythological details which supports the astrological matrix would indicate they had detailed knowledge of the exact meaning of the stories well into second and third century AD when they would use zodiac mosaics on the floors of their temples.

firstly, the fact that they knew about the astrological matrix does not prove that the events of the Torah were therefore the same stories as mythologies based on astrology. all that proves is that they had observed the matrix correctly, as had the people who wrote down mythologies based on it! furthermore, the fact that there was anything representational depicted in a synagogue of that era is far more likely to be evidence of hellenistic-influenced laxity. there are even mosaics of that period that depict prophets and the Shekhinah - but it doesn't mean that was OK!

The problem came when Israel was defeated by Rome mulitiple times and could not rule the age of Pisces as they had expected would happen. At this point the Rabbis broke ranks.

far from breaking ranks, this event would have simply provided evidence to support the sages' argument that the stars did not determine our fate! upon what exactly do you base this statement?

it always astounds me how people can make these bizarre claims about judaism and jewish texts, ignoring or dismissing thousands of years of some of the finest minds in human history spending their entire lives exploring every possible aspect of them - do people really think that this stuff hasn't already been thought of and discussed by traditional commentators?

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Vajradhara]

Namaste bananabrain,

thank you for the post.

Buddhism also takes this approach and, moreover, lists astrology and fortune telling as Not Right Livelihood.

we are specifically instructed not to earn a living by exploiting peoples superstitions.

to paraphrase on of the finest movie Buddhists that ever walked the silver screen...

"always in motion is the future... difficult to see."

since sentient beings can change their karma, their future is not certain.

[Nogodnomasters]

Banana Brain,

This is actually not a bizarre subject. The Greek religion/myths are based on astrology. Likewise it has also been shown Babylonian and Egyptian religions on which the OT stories are based are also astrological. Yet somehow, these stories when retold by the Jews lose all their basis in astrology. This does not make any sense.

It is difficult for anyone to say if the ancient Talmud was a majority or minority opinion. Granted it is not the opinion of today, but to make a claim it was only a minority opinion is incorrect.

The zodiac mosiacs come from the Jews, not the Greeks.

Babylonian Talmud “Rav Hanina said to them, [his disciples]: Go out and tell the son of Levi, Not the constellation of the day but the constellation of the hour is the determining influence. He who is born under the constellation of the sun will be a distinguished person: he will eat and drink of his own and his secrets will lie uncovered; if he is a thief, he will have no success. He who is born under Venus will be wealthy and unchaste [immoral]. What is the reason? Because fire was created therein. He who is born under Mercury will be of a retentive memory and wise. What is the reason? Because it [Mercury] is the sun's scribe. He who is born under the Moon will be a man to suffer evil, building and demolishing, demolishing and building. He will eat and drink that which is not his and his secrets will remain hidden: if he is a thief, he will be successful. He who is born under Saturn will be a man whose plans will be frustrated. Others say: All [evil] designs against him will be frustrated. He who is born under Zedek [Jupiter] will be a right-doing man [zadkan] Rav Nahman bar Isaac observed: Right-doing in good deeds. He who is born under Mars will be a shedder of blood. Rav Ashi observed: Either a surgeon, a thief, a slaughterer, or a circumciser. Rabbah said: I was born under Mars. Abaye retorted: You too inflict punishment and kill.”

Josephus Antiquates of the Jews 3.185-186 writes: “Sun and moon are indicated by the two sardonyxes [gems] wherewith [the high priest] pinned his robe. As for the twelve stones [breastplate] whether one would prefer to read them in months or the constellations of like number, which the Greeks call the circle of the zodiac, he will not mistake the lawgiver’s intentions.”
Origen writes in Contra Celius: “what is astonishing about the Jews is that they adore the sky and the angels that inhabit it.”

Not only were the Jews lovers of astrology, it seems they were obcessed by it. The story from the garden through Solomon was how they remembered all those constellations, the stars and their meanings. It was simply a memory aid.

The authors of the various Midrashes knew the astrological origin. This is why they told stories about the castration of Noah, the tail of Adam, the miraculous birth of Abraham and the attempt of Nimrod to murder Abraham in the manner of Herod. These stories brought them in line with the Greek interpretation of the constellations. The original Hebrew version differed slightly. My work is far different from what you will find in a Kabbalah.

[bananabrain]

The Greek religion/myths are based on astrology. Likewise it has also been shown Babylonian and Egyptian religions on which the OT stories are based are also astrological. Yet somehow, these stories when retold by the Jews lose all their basis in astrology. This does not make any sense.

except if THE OT STORIES DO NOT, CONTRARY TO YOUR BELIEF ACTUALLY HAVE AN ASTROLOGICAL BASIS! when evidence doesn't support a hypothesis, the normal practice is to regard the hypothesis, rather than the evidence, as deficient - yet you seem to be blaming the text for the fact that your hypothesis doesn't apply to it! deary, deary me.

It is difficult for anyone to say if the ancient Talmud was a majority or minority opinion. Granted it is not the opinion of today, but to make a claim it was only a minority opinion is incorrect.

i'm sorry to have to say this, but you clearly don't know anything about talmudic logic at all. there are long-established rules about how to work out whether talmudic opinions are authoritative or not. you can't simply grab all the astrological bits out of the Talmud and draw your own conclusions! for a start, rav hanina's opinion at least isn't authoritative, as the following shows:

It was stated. Rabbi Hanina said: The planetary influence gives wisdom, the planetary influence gives wealth, and Israel stands under planetary influence, (yesh mazal le'yisrael). Rabbi Yohanan maintained: Israel is immune from planetary influence, (eyn mazal leyisrael).

rabbi yohanan's opinion is considered to outweigh rav hanina's - but then, i doubt you bothered to find that out. secondly, a closer examination of the argument on that page (tractate Shabbat p156a) can also be understood as showing other authorities apparently having a good laugh at rav hanina's expense (this happens more often than you might think in the Talmud, incidentally) and generally being somewhat sarcastic, as in abaye's rather sardonic remark to rabbah, which might be rendered as "well, i don't know about anyone else, but you certainly punish me".

incidentally, if you're interested in what the authoritative opinions on astrology actually are, go and have a look at this, which appears to be reputable: http://home.earthlink.net/~etzahaim/...perstition.htm - as you will see, it's hardly straightforward, but in no way suggests that the Torah itself is an astrological text.

i've already made rude remarks elsewhere about josephus as a religious authority (deary me) as opposed to a historical one (fairly reliable as long as you take his background and prejudices into account) - that remark about the breastplate of the high priest is pure brown-nosing to his roman audience.

The story from the garden through Solomon was how they remembered all those constellations, the stars and their meanings. It was simply a memory aid.

funny, i suppose we must all be mistaken and you must have spotted something which all the jewish sages missed, for all their learning and familiarity with the languages and traditions.

The authors of the various Midrashes knew the astrological origin. This is why they told stories about the castration of Noah, the tail of Adam, the miraculous birth of Abraham and the attempt of Nimrod to murder Abraham in the manner of Herod. These stories brought them in line with the Greek interpretation of the constellations.

you seem pretty sure you know what the authors of the midrash thought. there are plenty of other explanations which you are choosing to ignore. similarly, because you are choosing to believe that there is an astrological basis for everything, you are behaving no different from people who insist that everything must necessarily have an historical or rational basis - and with considerably less evidence! it's terribly procrustean.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Nogodnomasters]

I too am surprised this has not been discovered before. The work is so basic and apparent once it is pointed out to you. Perhaps it was never discovered because those who looked for it used the whole text, instead of an edited text in the Wellhausean fashion. I discovered it because of Freidman's work, "The Hidden Book in the Bible."

The fact that there are other "explanations" for the stories coincides with the reason why the stories were written and their use. The stars were used for predicting the future. That is why prophecy is all so similar throughout the entire Bible. Those who knew what the stars meant, would be a prophet. This is why there are no specific handbooks explaining the details- it was passed on. It was just alluded to in writing.

Since the future was in the stars, so was the past. The stories of the Bible had a basis in truth (or else this whole prophecy thing could not work). The original text based on the factual history of the characters and times gives me a date of about 2218 BCE for the authorship. 2141 is about the date I get using astrology.

The fact that these stories did happen ADDS credence to my hypothisis if you understand why they were written. In my book I include the historical facts behind the various Bible tales. I show how those facts were blended with astrology to give a remarkable tale. While the plagues of Egypt did occur and Asians were expelled, there was no parting of the Red Sea. The parting of the Red Sea can only be astrological.

The evidence does support the hypotheis, you just have not seen it. In fact the evidence is so overwhelming and so simple to reproduce I hesitate to write about it until it is published. There is a thread I started just on this topic, if you care to continue the debate there.

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by Nogodnomasters

The evidence does support the hypotheis, you just have not seen it. In fact the evidence is so overwhelming and so simple to reproduce I hesitate to write about it until it is published. There is a thread I started just on this topic, if you care to continue the debate there.

Namaste,

as they say in the gambling world.... "show or fold".

if you have evidence to support your theory, then please provide it. you do not need to reveal all your evidence on here, one has no interest in depriving another of a source of income. however.... at this point, your "facts" are not... they are your opinion.

[Nogodnomasters]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

Namaste,

as they say in the gambling world.... "show or fold".

if you have evidence to support your theory, then please provide it. you do not need to reveal all your evidence on here, one has no interest in depriving another of a source of income. however.... at this point, your "facts" are not... they are your opinion.

I have already provided numerous pieces of evidence. As any theory there is no specific smoking gun, but it must be taken in toto. I chose not to present too many details and you may refer to this idea as "my opinion," I have no problem with that. All I ask is that you remeber you heard it here first.

I have given an example of one story in another post. Multiple that by 100 and you have my proof. I do not plan on posting all the stories of the Bible and how they relate to each other. My book has about 120,000 words with about 5 dozen illustrations.

[bob x]

Originally Posted by Nogodnomasters

I have already provided numerous pieces of evidence.

I'm sorry, but I really don't get what connection you see between the story and the stars that it is supposedly referring to.

[Nogodnomasters]

Originally Posted by bob x

I'm sorry, but I really don't get what connection you see between the story and the stars that it is supposedly referring to.

Bob, go to the Bible as Astrology section. Read it, and we will carry on there.

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by Nogodnomasters

I have already provided numerous pieces of evidence. As any theory there is no specific smoking gun, but it must be taken in toto. I chose not to present too many details and you may refer to this idea as "my opinion," I have no problem with that. All I ask is that you remeber you heard it here first.

I have given an example of one story in another post. Multiple that by 100 and you have my proof. I do not plan on posting all the stories of the Bible and how they relate to each other. My book has about 120,000 words with about 5 dozen illustrations.

Namaste,

fair enough, though i would not call what you have presented evidence that is satisfactory to me. eh.. that's my opinion and i do not know how others feel.

i shall remember that i heard it here first no worries with that.

in a different post, though, you say that you won't post any evidence at all until your book is published.... i can only take you at your word.

unfortunately for most people, the internet and chat forums are not very condusive to actual communication and dialog. alot of what humans communicate comes through verbal clues such as tone and intonation and body language. all these elements are lost in the electronic medium, which robs us of a lot of information about the speaker.

not to put too fine a point on it, however, i do not think that i will be purchasing your book. as you are the author, however, once it is published, perhaps you can post some relevant bits of evidence and we can pick this discussion up again?