The Sacred Feminine

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Pathless

Al Bundy?? What a horrible quote.

I don't associate "Mrs. God" with the horrors of the apocalypse. That's all YHWH's territory--the jealous god smiting enemies with fire. In my pantheon, there isn't a "Mrs. God." There is an independent female divinity who is an anarchist and quite possibly a lesbian. She has better things to do than trifle in politics and self-hate and war. A natural disaster or two, maybe, but she doesn't traffic in Biblical retribution at all. She views the Bible and similar systemized religious works with humor that masks a real distaste for such thought and spirit control. She might open up a can of whoop-ass on you if you assualt her or break into her house with ill intent, but she doesn't take holy vengeance on the road in a proselytizing inquisition, as the patriarchal Lords are inclined to do.

She caught me watching her undress and has been punishing me ever since.

Chris

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by Raksha

I truly hope you aren't the kind of person I call a "Gatekeeper," i.e. a self-appointed guardian of the mysteries, because we're going to have problems if you are. There is nothing I despise more than a Gatekeeper, no form of human life lower than a self-appointed spiritual nanny who takes it upon himself to determine who may enter the inner sanctum and who may not.

Welcome to CR Linda. I think there are a few Gatekeepers here, so sharpen your sticks.

[Raksha]

Originally Posted by Pathless

Welcome to CR Linda. I think there are a few Gatekeepers here, so sharpen your sticks.

Pathless,

It's okay...my sticks are always sharp for that type, and I keep them in attack position at all times! I make it very clear to them as soon as I spot them that I NEVER ask permission on general principles, and that their permission is neither solicited nor welcome.

My reference to "a self-appointed spiritual nanny who takes it upon himself to determine who may enter the inner sanctum and who may not" was deliberate. I thought about saying "himself or herself," but then thought better of it. Although a nanny is a traditionally feminine occupation, the Gatekeeper or spiritual nanny type is almost always male. And where would women be if they had waited for permission from the patriarchal religious power structure to claim full spiritual equality? You have only to look at the patriarchal Roman Catholic Church for an answer...STILL WAITING!

--Linda

[flowperson]

Hi...That all brings to mind a vision a pair of very large eunuchs standing outside of the doors to a seraglio brandishing large, curved swords. However you envision it, it is still the conflict between the wealthy and powerful overdogs defending their realm against the bereft, knowing, and dedicated underdogs.

A very old story line methinks. Think it might ever be subject to change ?

flow....

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Pathless

Welcome to CR Linda. I think there are a few Gatekeepers here, so sharpen your sticks.

If there are Gatekeepers, I'd think there would be Key Masters and Ghost-busters as well.

Question: Who do you call?

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Raksha

There is nothing I despise more than a Gatekeeper, no form of human life lower than a self-appointed spiritual nanny who takes it upon himself to determine who may enter the inner sanctum and who may not.

What is the "Inner Sanctum" anyway? Is it some knowledge base that makes those who possess it more proficient at rationalising and understanding religion than the rest of us?

[Raksha]

What is the "Inner Sanctum" anyway? Is it some knowledge base that makes those who possess it more proficient at rationalising and understanding religion than the rest of us?

I think I meant two things at the same time by the phrase "the inner sanctum." The first one would be the esoteric aspect of any religion, such as Kabbalah in Judaism. Occasionally I would run into people on the Judaism board I frequented on another forum who would always make a point of warning me that I could hurt myself or even kill myself by getting into Kabbalah if I didn't know what I was doing.

I always found these warnings rather amusing. First of all, WHAT the hell did these people think I was actually doing? I was reading a few books mostly of an introductory nature and that was about it. True, not all of them were by Jewish authors, but as I mentioned earlier (maybe on another thread) there was very little available in English from Jewish sources when I first became interested. Also, I got the feeling that the mostly Orthodox bluenoses who issued these warnings didn't actually know that much (if anything) more than I did, and were just repeating what they had heard from someone else. It all seemed kind of superstitious to me, as though the intent were to scare me off for no good reason.

The other thing I meant by "the inner sanctum" is access to the real sources of power in any religion, i.e. full participation up to and including ordination. Women of course were systematically excluded in virtually all religions until fairly recently, and even now that this is starting to break down it's still a very big issue with me. One reason (among many) that I never developed as strong an interest in Eastern religions as some of my contemporaries is that they seemed every bit as sexist as the Western ones, sometimes even more so. This is not to put down on those who do find meaning in them. Obviously there is a lot Western people can learn and have already learned from Hinduism and Buddhism. It's just that I personally have always been more attracted to the Western esoteric path, which for me has meant Gnosticism as well as Kabbalah. "Hermeticism" is the usual umbrella term for what I'm getting at here.

Lately I'm also becoming more and more interested in Neopaganism, and this is partly because of my daughter's strong commitment to Reclaiming. One of the things I appreciate the most about Neopaganism that there simply *IS* no sexism to overcome, so I don't have to put up with even the vestiges of it. There is also no hierarchical power structure, which seems to go hand in hand with patriarchy, and which I see as basically elitist, undemocratic and disempowering to the individual, whether male or female.

In other words, it would be hard for me to overstate just how allergic I am to authoritarianism in ANY form! To me a "Gatekeeper" is a self-apponted voice of authority, someone who tries to tell me my path "should" be something other than what it is, or who tries to tell me certain areas are or should be off limits for me.

--Linda

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Raksha

Occasionally I would run into people on the Judaism board I frequented on another forum who would always make a point of warning me that I could hurt myself or even kill myself by getting into Kabbalah if I didn't know what I was doing.

It's like that for a lot of religious traditions. We just have to get used to it.

Originally Posted by Raksha

I always found these warnings rather amusing. I got the feeling that the mostly Orthodox bluenoses who issued these warnings didn't actually know that much (if anything) more than I did, and were just repeating what they had heard from someone else. It all seemed kind of superstitious to me, as though the intent were to scare me off for no good reason.

Sounds a lot like what happens in fairy tales. Some secret society has a secret to protect and says, hush....hush, don't get into this unless you've thought about what you're getting into.....you might get involved in something dangerous. Or maybe you're forbidden to say someone or something's name or visit forbidden places. But to be serious, it's not like that in reality. It never involves the kind of danger people like to think, but I think people like to say that just to sensationalise the matter and make life more interesting lol. Otherwise life and religion would be boring. Watch out. Look behind you. There goes a terrorist. He's going to destroy the government. Then hordes and hordes of barbarians are going to invade our country, to destroy our civilisation. We were entrusted to preserve the story of our great civilisation, so that one day......we will rise up and defeat them.

Even I like the idea. I imagine myself ten years from now building a base of knowledge, formulating some kind of tradition and starting some kind of cult or secret society. SSSSShhhhh........don't tell anyone. Stay away from us unless you know what you're getting into. The fate of the world and universe depend on us fulfilling our mission. Don't screw it up for us.

lol That'd be fun. It'd be like some game.

Originally Posted by Raksha

The other thing I meant by "the inner sanctum" is access to the real sources of power in any religion, i.e. full participation up to and including ordination.

Originally Posted by Raksha

It's just that I personally have always been more attracted to the Western esoteric path, which for me has meant Gnosticism as well as Kabbalah. "Hermeticism" is the usual umbrella term for what I'm getting at here.

I looked up Hermeticism and it seems to be (among other things) a belief in panentheism (ie. The All).

Whether it's panentheism, pantheism, or a belief in a God separate/distinct from Creation and not in Creation, I'm slowly coming to an attitude where I see none of these concepts as universal, absolute or better than the others, although, I kind of identify more with the third. I'm not much of a believer in absolutes or ideals as I used to be. I don't believe that objective reality is knowable for most people, so I don't believe there's any point trying to contemplate its nature and structure. Our interpretation of reality will always be subjective.

Whichever one of the three models for God I choose (panentheism, pantheism, ...) to me matters less than having a relationship with the so-called "Supreme God" or "Supreme Power" (however one sees it). I don't even see it as essential to think of this "God" as omnipotent, omnipresent, all-seeing, all-powerful or all-encompassing.

People tend to like to idealise things in the Ultimate Reality they choose to believe in. Panentheism is the ultimate reality of God manifesting Himself in everything that exists. Pantheism is the ultimate reality of everything being a part of God. The third model might be pursued if you want to refrain from idolatry (according to some Abrahamic traditions) of Creation itself (worshipping created things). It is seen as noble to believe in idealisations.

I'm starting to think that maybe it's better not to be believe in an idealisation but to only devote myself in a relationship with the so-called "Supreme God/Power" as I see that as noble as well. I don't see it as blasphemy to not believe in an all-powerful, all-whatever God. What happens if He is not the idealisation we wanted? We would have to accept Him for not being ideal.

I suppose we'll all doomed to believe in idealisations, or choosing to be noble with what we believe. Even I, in choosing to not devote myself to an Ideal God, am trying to be noble. If being noble is a sign of arrogance, then even trying not to be noble is arrogant as that is an attempt to be noble and therefore a sign of one's arrogance, an attempt to be better (more noble) than others. .....and yeah, we all try to be better than each other in what we believe. It's a competition.

That's a rather extreme view, but it could serve as a tool of caution. When I was in high school I had the extreme view that everything was idolatry, everything people did was a sign of arrogance and selfishness. Human beings were fundamentally evil and everything they did was in self-interest. Even living and breathing in itself was self-interest. You couldn't even escape self-interest by committing suicide, because that in itself was to act in self-interest. Detachment? Mindlessness? No that was just as bad. But then I became a realist......

Originally Posted by Raksha

Lately I'm also becoming more and more interested in Neopaganism, and this is partly because of my daughter's strong commitment to Reclaiming. One of the things I appreciate the most about Neopaganism that there simply *IS* no sexism to overcome, so I don't have to put up with even the vestiges of it. There is also no hierarchical power structure, which seems to go hand in hand with patriarchy, and which I see as basically elitist, undemocratic and disempowering to the individual, whether male or female.

Originally Posted by Raksha

In other words, it would be hard for me to overstate just how allergic I am to authoritarianism in ANY form! To me a "Gatekeeper" is a self-apponted voice of authority, someone who tries to tell me my path "should" be something other than what it is, or who tries to tell me certain areas are or should be off limits for me.

I'm a bit of a rebel and anti-authoritarian/anti-establishmentist myself, and dislike slavery to dogma and semantics, alignment to ideology and to political systems and political structures. The power and true meaning of a tradition can only be unleashed by an individual discovering their own personal identity, not by conformity to ideology. It is when you know who you are as a person, that you then know how to proceed with a tradition. The bright side of many pagan religions is just that -- you discover yourself.

But......I think there is still a Gatekeeper mentality in me, due to the fact that I see those who are slaves to authoritarian leaders as not wielding the full power of their tradition or reaching their full potential as individuals. The slaves fall short because of their loss of individuality, and the authoritarian religious leaders fall short because they are fools and blind to the fact that they have slaves and are doing a disservice to their followers by destroying their individuality. But the thing is . . . I'm not being authoritarian. I'm not enslaving . . . I just have a "better" understanding of things. I'm warning them that they are on the wrong path. They have the mistaken belief that the power comes from the tradition (which is a kind of idolatry), rather than themselves. (don't take this too seriously, by the way, I was just making a point.)

I do believe knowledge and experience (gnossis) are important as it helps us to avoid ideological slavery and avoid ideologically enslaving others. I commend those who chose to be slaves of ideology for their innocence and loyalty, but when their leaders die, leave or are deposed, they either become more enslaved because of their fervent beliefs or face the truth. Knowledge and experience are necessary for spiritual freedom, liberation and emancipation for most people. It's like education. Some people neglect their spiritual education and are enslaved by cults and fundamentalisms.

[Raksha]

Saltmaster,

WOW...that's an incredibly interesting and challenging post! Obviously I don't agree with all of it, but I just want to let you know I appreciate the time and thought that went into it. Even if you were just rattling off ideas stream-of-consciousness style, they are still fascinating ideas and I'd love to respond to your post in depth later on. Unfortunately, I don't write fast so I won't be able to get around to it today.

I just want to let you know I read it and will try to respond in more depth sometime in the next few days.

--Linda

[Thomas]

Hi Linda —

Originally Posted by Raksha

It sounds to me like you're the one who has it backwards. Hermeticism predates Christianity.

Yes it does, and that's part of the problem. Some Hermeticists interpret Christianity not according to Christianity, but according to Hermeticism. So they bring foregone conclusions o the text, and miss all that is new and unique.

If you have time, look for "Meditations on the Tarot" (author anonymous), a profound work of Christian Hermeticism by a Catholic convert from Anthroposophy. Here Hermeticism is informed by Christianity, not the other way round.

Originally Posted by Raksha

There are two books in the Nag Hammadi Library (I'm too lazy to get up and check which ones at the moment) that exist in both a non-Christian and a Christian version, but otherwise are very similar.

An interesting fact about such finds is everyone jumped up to say how they would undermine Christianity. Now it turns out that what they show is that what everyone assumes is Hermetic, neo-Gnostic etc., was in fact nothing of the sort. The Gospel of John, for example, so long acclaimed as a Gospel influenced by Greek or Gnostic thought ... was in fact utterly in line with contemporary Jewish speculation.

Originally Posted by Raksha

I truly hope you aren't the kind of person I call a "Gatekeeper," i.e. a self-appointed guardian of the mysteries, because we're going to have problems if you are.

You mean that's because you are the self-appointed guardian of the mysteries?

Originally Posted by Raksha

There is nothing I despise more than a Gatekeeper, no form of human life lower than a self-appointed spiritual nanny who takes it upon himself to determine who may enter the inner sanctum and who may not.

I know! Nothing annoys me more than New Age ninnies who've read a few books, been to a few seances, and think they know it all — sorry, couldn't help it.

Originally Posted by Raksha

As you see, I entered the inner sanctum a long time ago. I didn't need your permission then and I don't now either!

Hmmm ...

By the way ... I was involved with an Hermetic Order for many years ... don't be too hasty to write off the unseen worlds as a kiddie's playground ...

Originally Posted by Raksha

I'm what the Hindus would call a jnani type myself, not a bhakti (devotional) type.

What you don't seem to realise is that these types are not exclusive ... else the jnani would be without compassion, and the bhakti without wisdom.

Originally Posted by Raksha

What Thomas doesn't seem to realize (or doesn't want to admit) is that a seeker of gnosis is born that way, and the desire/need for complexity is also innate.

The desire for complexity?

I wonder what order of gnosis you seek? Certainly, the great mystics of my own and other traditions — Abrahamic, Hindu, Buddhist, Daoist, talk of simplicity. I have yet to hear one master seek the complicated ... cosmology gets complicated, because of multiplicity, but beyond cosmology there is simplicity.

In my faith, every one born is called to a knowledge of the Divine.

Originally Posted by Raksha

The actual knowledge comes later, but the desire is there right from the beginning. No amount of "simple devotion" will ever satsify it.

But unless you devote yourself to your heart's desire, you will never attain it.

The world is full, more now than ever, of bar-room jnani who know the right way to do everything. The bhakti's are actually out there, doing something about it. The jnani despises their miniscule effort. The bhakti hopes that a million such little efforts might actually change the world.

Thomas

[Raksha]

Thomas,

So far you're pretty much what I expected, and although I haven't been around CR very long yet, I think you've seen enough of my posts to realize that is NOT a compliment!

If you have time, look for "Meditations on the Tarot" (author anonymous), a profound work of Christian Hermeticism by a Catholic convert from Anthroposophy.

I already have it and consider it a tremendously valuable resource, very profound as you say. Chris (China Cat Sunflower) who also directed me to the CR forum sent it to me a couple of years ago.

Here Hermeticism is informed by Christianity, not the other way round.

Absolutely true, and to me this is the SINGLE biggest flaw in the book! By some fluke, the three main religious influences in my life are also the three strands of what became orthodox Christianity, namely Judaism, Gnosticism and Paganism, Judaism being my birth religion. However, I always consider them separately and can't tolerate the prefabricated mix which you obviously consider the one, the true, the original, blah blah blah. For one thing, I have some well-justified resentments against the Catholic Church and no plans on forgiving them--EVER!--for their long history of persecution of my people. The best you'll ever get out of me on that score is an armed truce, so consider me one of the "invincibly ignorant" if it makes you happy. In other words, we don't HAVE to talk about "all that," but make the slightest attempt to rationalize it or explain it away in my presence and you instantly make yourself an accomplice after the fact.

But that's a digression from the Tarot book. I was saying that although I find it tremendously valuable it's precisely the fact that the Catholic Church is the author's ultimate point of reference that I find limiting and frustrating every time I run into it (which is constantly). In fact, there are times when I have to "translate" some of the author's terms into my own frame of reference or else they are useless to me.

For example, the constant reference to the three monastic vows of poverty, chastity and obedience: I can't do anything with those as they stand, and it's the words that get in the way. The author constantly stresses how important they are for any spiritual seeker, but at the same time he makes it very clear that he isn't using those terms in a literal sense, in the way they were used in actual Christian monastic practice. So in a way he's inviting the reader to translate those terms into his or her frame of reference, and for me it isn't optional but a necessity.

But it isn't all that easy to translate these terms into a more general and less sectarian context, and I wouldn't bother except that I sense it really is important. Since I have experienced enough actual poverty already to last me several lifetimes, I came up with simplicity as a less limiting translation for poverty. "Chastity" is a bit trickier on a number of levels, so I'll leave it alone for now. I don't remember what translation I came up with for that one, so I probably wasn't all that happy with it. My equivalent for obedience is responsiveness, since obviously I "obey" no outside authority, only Sophia the Wisdom of God. She is the Goddess, the Shekhinah, the Holy Spirit. She *IS" "the Sacred Feminine." Usually if something is very important, she has ways of communicating with me, but there are times when her meaning isn't all that clear and it's necessary to listen very carefully, and use every last bit of discernment I've got--and even that seems inadequate at times. But even then, I will never allow anyone to tell me I can't trust my discernment, that it's tainted or demonic or whatever. If my ego or wishful thinking cause me to make mistakes in judgment, I'll find out ALL about it soon enough!

Now it turns out that what they show is that what everyone assumes is Hermetic, neo-Gnostic etc., was in fact nothing of the sort. The Gospel of John, for example, so long acclaimed as a Gospel influenced by Greek or Gnostic thought ... was in fact utterly in line with contemporary Jewish speculation.

You're going to have to be a lot more concrete and specific about that, because I'm NOT going to take your word for it! The Gospel of John is considered the most "Gnostic" of the four gospels, but it's also considered the most anti-Semitic. Why you'd say it's "utterly in line with contemporary Jewish speculation" is beyond me. There is no concept of "the Logos" in Judaism, for one thing. That's a Greek philosophical concept--which is not to put down on it in any way, but I don't see anything "Jewish" about it.

You mean that's because you are the self-appointed guardian of the mysteries?

Nope, I wouldn't dream of it. I am merely a very experienced Gate-crasher.

By the way ... I was involved with an Hermetic Order for many years ... don't be too hasty to write off the unseen worlds as a kiddie's playground ...

Now you're being flat-out condescending. I was involved with a Hermetic Order for several years too. I am well aware that the unseen worlds aren't a kiddie's playground, but neither are they as dangerous as they're cracked up to be, at least not if you have a good will and aren't burdened with an overly inflated ego. Believe it or not, I qualify in both areas. Granted, I have Attitude to burn when I run into your kind, but that isn't the same thing as ego. I know what my limitations are and don't go beyond them, but I don't consider myself under any obligation to convince you of that.

This is all taking longer than I thought it would when I started, so I'll have to continue later.

--Linda

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

If there are Gatekeepers, I'd think there would be Key Masters and Ghost-busters as well.

People used to tell me that I looked like Rick Moranis, so I guess that would make me the Keymaster.

I'm scary. Where's Zuul?

[flowperson]

Yeah Pathless, but as we all can see you went on to hang out with that hot babe who went on to kick some serious alien butt big time. I've always had a bad case of "Sigourneyitis".

BTW, did you know that the keymasters of the church of the nativity in Bethlehem are Arab families, and that the responsibility is passed on intergenerationally ?

flow....

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by Raksha

Thomas,

So far you're pretty much what I expected, and although I haven't been around CR very long yet, I think you've seen enough of my posts to realize that is NOT a compliment!

OK. No point in continuing then.

Thomas

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Raksha

Absolutely true, and to me this is the SINGLE biggest flaw in the book! By some fluke, the three main religious influences in my life are also the three strands of what became orthodox Christianity, namely Judaism, Gnosticism and Paganism, Judaism being my birth religion. However, I always consider them separately and can't tolerate the prefabricated mix which you obviously consider the one, the true, the original, blah blah blah. For one thing, I have some well-justified resentments against the Catholic Church and no plans on forgiving them--EVER!--for their long history of persecution of my people. The best you'll ever get out of me on that score is an armed truce, so consider me one of the "invincibly ignorant" if it makes you happy. In other words, we don't HAVE to talk about "all that," but make the slightest attempt to rationalize it or explain it away in my presence and you instantly make yourself an accomplice after the fact.


--Linda

Hi, Rashka.
If Judaism is your birth religion, perhaps you might recognize the wisdom in Ezekiel 18.