The Roman view of Reality, c. 200 Bc

foundationist.org · 03-22-2003, 12:48 PM

When reading the work on Roman history by Livy (Titus Livius) I made some notes...

...because it’s completely fascinating to observe how the Romans, circa 200 BC, viewed the world.

The Roman view:

The world exists in a form of harmony, but only when the gods are happy. Reality is fragile. When the gods are unhappy then the entire fabric or reality begins to fall apart. The gods make apparent to all when they are unhappy by the occurrence of supernatural events.

In Livy, these events included:

* Monstrous animals being born ie, two heads, or five legs, or no determinate sex

* The fall of material from the sky, especially stones, even blood

* Mute babies calling out portentious words (either before or after birth)

* Statues issuing bodily fluids, namely sweat or blood – or even the statues themselves moving

* Anomalies in the sky, such as clouds being on fire, daylight at night, or even two suns being present

* People and buildings being struck by lightening

* Strange boats traversing the sky and humanoid forms in white walking the lands

* The heads of Javelins (made of iron) spontaneously bursting into flames

* Wolves overcoming their fear of people, such as entering a city through the main gate, or even stealing a sword from a sentries’ scabbard.

* Talking animals

Most of the above events make repeated appearances in Livy - except the close encounters with aliens[??!] which I've only seen once so far

I find it fascinating that books on Roman mythology have never given myself the impresison that the Romans felt their entire world and existence depended so much on portents and miraculous events to indicate the will of the gods, and how incredibly insecure they were before their concept of the divine – to the extent that when Hannibal invaded Italy by crossing the Alps with elephants, the Roman consuls had to break off their armies from engagements and campaigns and return to make propitious offerings when and where the people of Rome demanded it.

Although later writers, such as Plutarch, was quite derisive of common superstition, the state recognised the pacification – and reharmonisation of existence – as a matter of supreme important.

Just thought I’d post that.

foundationist.org · 03-22-2003, 03:28 PM

Well, what do you know - it's still happening!

Talking fish in New York

maya · 03-22-2003, 04:19 PM

Yeah but really, a talking fish? What were these people smokin? :scatter:

foundationist.org · 03-27-2003, 02:10 PM

Guess that's traditionalism for you.

Postmaster · 03-31-2005, 09:56 PM

* Monstrous animals being born ie, two heads, or five legs, or no determinate sex

Can't explain where they got that idea from, unless they developed genetic engineering and of course just general freak of nature which still happens today.

* The fall of material from the sky, especially stones, even blood

Comets and asteroids can explain this today.

* Mute babies calling out portentious words (either before or after birth)

Could happen

* Statues issuing bodily fluids, namely sweat or blood – or even the statues themselves moving

Has been happening ever since, Christians experience this.

* Anomalies in the sky, such as clouds being on fire, daylight at night, or even two suns being present

Ancient UFO's maybe? We say they are Aliens, they said it was angry Gods, maybe something else is a few thousand years.

* People and buildings being struck by lightening

Yep sill happens

* Strange boats traversing the sky and humanoid forms in white walking the lands

Ghosts? Still happens today..

* The heads of Javelins (made of iron) spontaneously bursting into flames

Spontaneous combustion still happens today.

* Wolves overcoming their fear of people, such as entering a city through the main gate, or even stealing a sword from a sentries’ scabbard.

Yep still happens

* Talking animals

Parrots

Bandit · 04-01-2005, 06:27 AM

wasn't the earth flat then too?

oh yah, it still is.

& so reality today will be viewed just as strange in, oh, say, 100 years. or maybe only 20 as knowledge increases to a speed that no one is able to keep up with it all any more.

I, Brian · 04-03-2005, 12:20 AM

Postmaster, I had to edit those spyware links out - you really got to clean up that computer!

mahogan · 04-03-2005, 12:39 PM

Although the Romans had a close afinity with their gods, it did not stop them from ignoring them or disparaging them. Whilst they found it necessary to make sacrifices when Hannibal crossed into Italy, they were perfectly capable of ignoring them when the predictions if they did not meet their needs - see the attack on Carthage, where (which general? sorry, can't remember), the general threw the entrails of the sacrifice into the sea and said he could manage without the oracles.

Does anyone know of any work on the relationship between the interest of the state/civil and Gods? What we see here is a mixing of religion, the conflict between the Greco-Roman-Christian and the Greco-Roman-Pagan.

I, Brian · 04-03-2005, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahogan

Does anyone know of any work on the relationship between the interest of the state/civil and Gods?

Possibly this article may be of interest:
http://www.comparative-religion.com/ancient/roman.php

03-22-2003, 12:48 PM	#1 (permalink)
foundationist.org Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 72	The Roman view of Reality, c. 200 Bc When reading the work on Roman history by Livy (Titus Livius) I made some notes... ...because it’s completely fascinating to observe how the Romans, circa 200 BC, viewed the world. The Roman view: The world exists in a form of harmony, but only when the gods are happy. Reality is fragile. When the gods are unhappy then the entire fabric or reality begins to fall apart. The gods make apparent to all when they are unhappy by the occurrence of supernatural events. In Livy, these events included: * Monstrous animals being born ie, two heads, or five legs, or no determinate sex * The fall of material from the sky, especially stones, even blood * Mute babies calling out portentious words (either before or after birth) * Statues issuing bodily fluids, namely sweat or blood – or even the statues themselves moving * Anomalies in the sky, such as clouds being on fire, daylight at night, or even two suns being present * People and buildings being struck by lightening * Strange boats traversing the sky and humanoid forms in white walking the lands * The heads of Javelins (made of iron) spontaneously bursting into flames * Wolves overcoming their fear of people, such as entering a city through the main gate, or even stealing a sword from a sentries’ scabbard. * Talking animals Most of the above events make repeated appearances in Livy - except the close encounters with aliens[??!] which I've only seen once so far I find it fascinating that books on Roman mythology have never given myself the impresison that the Romans felt their entire world and existence depended so much on portents and miraculous events to indicate the will of the gods, and how incredibly insecure they were before their concept of the divine – to the extent that when Hannibal invaded Italy by crossing the Alps with elephants, the Roman consuls had to break off their armies from engagements and campaigns and return to make propitious offerings when and where the people of Rome demanded it. Although later writers, such as Plutarch, was quite derisive of common superstition, the state recognised the pacification – and reharmonisation of existence – as a matter of supreme important. Just thought I’d post that.

03-22-2003, 03:28 PM	#2 (permalink)
foundationist.org Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 72	Re:The Roman view of Reality, c. 200 Bc Well, what do you know - it's still happening! Talking fish in New York

03-22-2003, 04:19 PM	#3 (permalink)
maya Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 42	Re:The Roman view of Reality, c. 200 Bc Yeah but really, a talking fish? What were these people smokin? :scatter:

03-27-2003, 02:10 PM	#4 (permalink)
foundationist.org Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 72	Re:The Roman view of Reality, c. 200 Bc Guess that's traditionalism for you.

03-31-2005, 09:56 PM	#5 (permalink)
Postmaster Executive Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 1,428	Re: The Roman view of Reality, c. 200 Bc * Monstrous animals being born ie, two heads, or five legs, or no determinate sex Can't explain where they got that idea from, unless they developed genetic engineering and of course just general freak of nature which still happens today. * The fall of material from the sky, especially stones, even blood Comets and asteroids can explain this today. * Mute babies calling out portentious words (either before or after birth) Could happen * Statues issuing bodily fluids, namely sweat or blood – or even the statues themselves moving Has been happening ever since, Christians experience this. * Anomalies in the sky, such as clouds being on fire, daylight at night, or even two suns being present Ancient UFO's maybe? We say they are Aliens, they said it was angry Gods, maybe something else is a few thousand years. * People and buildings being struck by lightening Yep sill happens * Strange boats traversing the sky and humanoid forms in white walking the lands Ghosts? Still happens today.. * The heads of Javelins (made of iron) spontaneously bursting into flames Spontaneous combustion still happens today. * Wolves overcoming their fear of people, such as entering a city through the main gate, or even stealing a sword from a sentries’ scabbard. Yep still happens * Talking animals Parrots

04-01-2005, 06:27 AM	#6 (permalink)
Bandit Executive Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,631	Re: The Roman view of Reality, c. 200 Bc wasn't the earth flat then too? oh yah, it still is. & so reality today will be viewed just as strange in, oh, say, 100 years. or maybe only 20 as knowledge increases to a speed that no one is able to keep up with it all any more.

04-03-2005, 12:20 AM	#7 (permalink)
I, Brian Soul Rebel Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Highlands of Scotland Posts: 4,604	Re: The Roman view of Reality, c. 200 Bc Postmaster, I had to edit those spyware links out - you really got to clean up that computer!

04-03-2005, 12:39 PM	#8 (permalink)
mahogan tgyhuj Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: ec Posts: 58	Re: The Roman view of Reality, c. 200 Bc Although the Romans had a close afinity with their gods, it did not stop them from ignoring them or disparaging them. Whilst they found it necessary to make sacrifices when Hannibal crossed into Italy, they were perfectly capable of ignoring them when the predictions if they did not meet their needs - see the attack on Carthage, where (which general? sorry, can't remember), the general threw the entrails of the sacrifice into the sea and said he could manage without the oracles. Does anyone know of any work on the relationship between the interest of the state/civil and Gods? What we see here is a mixing of religion, the conflict between the Greco-Roman-Christian and the Greco-Roman-Pagan.

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