The real cause of Islamic terrorism - the yogic perspective

[niranjan]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Why make the distinction of "islamic terrorism"? Why not simply make the point of "terrorism" in general, and also the abuse of religious/spiritual ideals from any religion for socio-political ends?.

If you want, I can start an another thread on that. No problem with that. And with respect to Islamic terrrorism, I believe this has shed a lot of blood enough since the 7th century A.D against almost virtually every religion and many nations, and hence this deserves to be discussed on a thread of its own.

You don't see any hindu, buddhist, sikh, jain, assyrian, zoroastrian, shintoist, taoist, bahai suicide bombers all around the world do you.

Originally Posted by I, Brian

You claim you're not against Islam, but make it clear you object to some of the content of the Qur'an.?.

As I stated from the beginning of this thread I am not against Islam, but against verses in the quran that violates morality. There are indeed good verses and truths in the quran as pointed out by our prophet, and I am only pointing out the violent verses, which has killed millions of people since the 7th century A.D. should either be eradicated, or the moderate islamic community should try to educate their community on the carnage and havoc perpetrated ever since the 7th century A.D. due to these verses.

Originally Posted by I, Brian

It's also curious to read that you seem to have a Brahmic ideal of what constitutes Hinduism/being a Hindu/the state of India - with anything falling short of that ideal in terms of behaviour or policies as not Hindu or Indian, or else otherwise justified.?.

And where have I stated that. If you notice, you can see me talking about batman and spiderman, which has nothing to do with hinduism or India, and also criticizing the VHP for their criticism of Valentines day, and also criticizing certain groups in India who criticized Richard Gere for kissing an Indian woman.

Our scriptures have also stated that one ought to follow ones logic and reasoning and accept that which is good and noble and truthful, even if it is from a child, and reject that which is evil and false, even it is from a divine source.

Check out Yoga Vasistha , if you have any doubts on this, where the sage Vasishta teaches Prince Rama.

And for this reason I am passionate about Voltaire, Emerson, Thoreau,Bahaullah and especially Thomas Paine.

Also wish to state that I don't need religious sanction to be interested in them.


.

[bananabrain]

Originally Posted by niranjan

Whatever that may be, you and the persecuted jews still lived in India,due to the refuge and freedom of worship provided by hindus. That is what matters.

excuse me, but you are stating that as if it is a logical consequence and it isn't. jews lived in iraq for 2500 years, in poland for 500 years, in germany for 1000 years, in russia for 500 years, etc etc. the fact that we lived there wasn't because of refuge and freedom of worship - it's because we had *nowhere else to go*. it's not like some maharajah came looking for us to tell us to move to india, we came of our own accord. in places where there was far worse antisemitism and persecution than india we still stayed - so the fact that we stayed in india is not actually proof of anything. i mean, we stayed in goa despite the portuguese and that was pretty bad. what you are arguing here is a logical fallacy known as post hoc ergo propter hoc - in other words, we did not move to india because it was the Land of Tolerance And Multiculturalism - we moved there and then later on people like gandhi decided to make the tolerance state policy - i would like to give that its proper due as forward thinking and undoubtedly praiseworthy, but i'm not going to extend blanket approval to every aspect of indian state policy and history and the complete spectrum of hinduism any more than i would do so to any other religion or state including my own.

Well ,there was no pakistan before 1947

so you are basically demanding that i swear allegiance to some kind of mythological "hind"? can't you see that is both peremptory, arrogant and illogical?

it was India and the hindus that provided your persecuted ancestors refuge and full freedom of worship. I am not sure what the muslims would have done.

well, we got on more or less well with the muslims until after WWII and certainly under islamic law were treated far better than we were in christian europe, with protected rights as dhimmi, even though that is far from what i would accept these days.

Coming to the topic, and what are the great failures on the multicultural front!!!!!!!!!

turning it round again, "what are the great successes?????????? as i said earlier, the fact we were there for a long time is no guarantee of anything given the othe places we lived/live. you are the one making the categorical claim, so you are the one who ought to substantiate it and, of course, you can't because your point is all rhetoric, backed up only by the anecdotal evidence of your friend raymond (nice though he undoubtedly is)

Or is it the fact that even after the bloody partition and all the atrocities committed by the Islamic terrorists, such as Direct Action Day riots and the partition riots, the hindus still allowed millions of muslims to live in India.

you see, this is where you betray your supremacism. they're "allowed" by the hindus, are they? where's the equality in that statement? either they're free and equal citizens or they're not. to say nothing of your implication that muslims alone are to blame for the riots and atrocities of partition!

Or are you suggesting that India should also be like Israel!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

presumably that is meant to indicate incredulity. i am not here to big up israel, particularly in relation to india. i've got no interest in "mine's bigger than yours" grandstanding. on the other hand, you seem terribly keen that i acknowledge the wonderfulness without blemish that is india and despite my warmth for indian culture, music, language, etc and my own attachment to my indian heritage, i'm not about to idealise any nation-state.

And why don't you explain why there is still a substantial jewish population in India,who has not left, and why Raymond, my young Indian jewish friend who loves India ( and Israel too) has not left India, unlike other spineless jews.

you seem to be under the misapprehension that i am obliged to explain myself to you, when you are the one making extravagant and rhetorically overheated claims. referring to the jewish population of india as "substantial" is simply another example of it, when my grandparents' synagogue in mumbai can't get a minyan (prayer quorum) of 10 on a daily basis. calling me names is simply an illustration of insecure aggressiveness and shows the nasty streak that came through in your attacks on islam. why do you crave my approval and admiration so much and then throwing your toys out of the pram when you don't get it?

So are you saying that you too believe there is nothing wrong with verses that state the believer to chop the fingers and limbs of the unbeliever, crucify him, take his women as captive slaves and have sex with these traumatised ladies, and the verse which states that it will never be accepted of any one to accept a religion other than Islam.

i'm not saying that there isn't anything problematic in the Qur'an. the same accusations are often levelled at the Torah and Tanakh, but of course when you understand the legal tradition that underpins them, these apparently bloodthirsty regulations are not actually actionable outside of a given time and place, unless you happen to be a bunch of revisionist imbeciles like the taleban or other islamist groups. there are plenty of muslims, like muslimwoman for example, who can provide chapter and verse to refute a literalist reading of these verses - if you're actually interested in listening to the answers, why don't you go and ask them on the islam board instead of wasting our time with your diatribes here? i'm sure you'd get far better answers from them than you'll get from me.

I know that you yourself know this is immoral, but is just putting them over here for the sake of disengenuous argument.

ah, another spate of name-calling, i'm sure that improves your logic. of course they would be immoral - IF - they were interpreted in the literalist way you are reading them. when interpreted by sensible, sophisticated, learned muslims, they aren't. when interpreted by backward, frustrated, stupid muslims, like rioting pendus or jihadi nincompoops, they are.

Well, I have been praised lavishly but not been extended an invitation yet, but if given , I will go for it. I love parties.

hur hur hur. perhaps if you went to one once in a while you might moderate your views enough to have a social life rather than being a keyboard warrior.

had heard from a jewish friend and an another friend of mine,that there is a class system in Israel as well. Don't know much about it.

there's no country on earth without a class system. it's the ethno-political consequence of economic forces.

However I do know that black jews cannot intermarry with the white jews and are discriminated. And I have seen this in newspapers as well. If I dig up on it, I can present some interesting material over here.

what??? this is absolutely untrue. any jew can marry any other jew. jews are not a race and it makes no difference religiously speaking what colour you are. of course, individual jews are sometimes racist but you don't, for example, get mother-in-laws complaining "oh this fiancée of his is a bit dark - it is a shame he couldn't find someone wheatish" - and don't dare tell me that indians don't care about this - just look! desi date wheatish - Google Search

I also wish to say that there are more than 1 billion hindus as opposed, to the jews who have never crossed the 20 million mark. Just for the sake of information.

is that supposed to be a superiority thing? the last time we reached the 20 million mark was during the 1930s.... unfortunately, you know, we ended up with a bit of a demographic problem for some reason....

jnana yoga(the yoga of the intellect), raja yoga( the yoga of mysticism or conquest of the internal nature), karma yoga ( the yoga of action) and bhakti yoga( the yoga of love).

You can choose one or more or all of these , depending on your aptitude and inclinations and strive for enlightenment.

well, you clearly don't know anything about the jewish mystical tradition which contains concepts virtually identical to these. why not actually open your mind? you might learn something.

even in bhakti yoga, idolatry is considered as the kindergarten of spirituality. After some time one outgrows it.

maimonides said something very similar.

To tell the truth , we really don't care what the jews have to say. We are more interested in spiritual growth and character and attaining nirvana.

then what the arse are you doing on a dialogue board? are you getting your spiritual growth and character by attachment to the worldly achievements of the indian state? nirvana, here we come....

Maybe so, but don't Judaism consider the jews as 'G!D's chosen people'. Wonder whats wrong with the others!

oh, here we go. tell you what, mate - why don't you look up what we actually say, rather than assuming you know what you're talking about when you don't. we were chosen because we were chosen to receive the Torah, not "chosen" because we were better. i can't even be bothered to argue this yet again, go and have a look here: Jews as a chosen people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia which ought to answer some of your questions.

Also 'G!D's chosen people' seems to be doing a very G!Dly or Divine job in Israel.

oh maaan i am sooo busted. you really told me off. sheesh.

i am bored of this. bye.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by niranjan

You don't see any hindu, buddhist, sikh, jain, assyrian, zoroastrian, shintoist, taoist, bahai suicide bombers all around the world do you.

No, but brutality and violence itself is only very rarely absent from the followers of any single religion.

I might have difficulty pulling out stories of violence committed by Jains or Baha'is, but if they each increased their adherents base to the billion mark, I'm sure it shouldn't be too hard to pull out some bad apples and paint these as typical followers.

Let's face it, with something towards 25%-33% of the world's population being Muslim (1.5-2 billion people by all accounts), the suicide bombers seem to be a tiny minority.

[niranjan]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

excuse me, but you are stating that as if it is a logical consequence and it isn't. jews lived in iraq for 2500 years, in poland for 500 years, in germany for 1000 years, in russia for 500 years, etc etc. the fact that we lived there wasn't because of refuge and freedom of worship - it's because we had *nowhere else to go*.

it's not like some maharajah came looking for us to tell us to move to india, we came of our own accord. in places where there was far worse antisemitism and persecution than india we still stayed - so the fact that we stayed in india is not actually proof of anything.

You keep repeating the same argument again. And I have to state again that if we wanted , we could easily have told your people to get lost as well, which we didn't , and never persecuted them as well unlike every other country did. It was the portuguese christians who came to India and conquered some land who persecuted the jews and muslims and christians and hindus as well. And even these guys were defeated by Shivaji, and the remnants of them were thrashed off in the 20 th century by the Indian government.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

what you are arguing here is a logical fallacy known as post hoc ergo propter hoc - in other words, we did not move to india because it was the Land of Tolerance And Multiculturalism - we moved there and then later on people like gandhi decided to make the tolerance state policy - i would like to give that its proper due as forward thinking and undoubtedly praiseworthy,.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

but i'm not going to extend blanket approval to every aspect of indian state policy and history and the complete spectrum of hinduism any more than i would do so to any other religion or state including my own.,.

As I stated before no country indeed is perfect, but certainly India , due to its credentials which I mentioned above, and which I clearly know that no country on earth has is closer to perfection.

Instead of merely criticizing it , why cant you point out its merits as well, such as being the only nation on earth that has not persecuted the jews and how your people have lived there for centuries and still do.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

so you are basically demanding that i swear allegiance to some kind of mythological "hind"? can't you see that is both peremptory, arrogant and illogical?.,.

Bharat which has been there for milleniums and which is the land that gave the bloodiest battle of their lives to Alexander and his troops which demoralized enough to turn back, is not a myth.

And as I said, we don't need your gratitude or anything for giving shelter and refuge and freedom of worship to your people , which we could easily have denied, we are only asking you to criticize India while at the same time showing its positives as well, which especially you and your people are aware of.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

well, we got on more or less well with the muslims until after WWII and certainly under islamic law were treated far better than we were in christian europe, with protected rights as dhimmi, even though that is far from what i would accept these days.

Funny you said this. Just yesterday a jewish friend of mine pointed out to me the massacre of many young jews in arabia during the time of Mohammed.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

turning it round again, "what are the great successes?????????? as i said earlier, the fact we were there for a long time is no guarantee of anything given the othe places we lived/live. .

Simple, one great success is that the hindus have never persecuted your people in all the centuries you lived in India, unlike what happened in all other countries the jews lived.

And what about the zoroastrians , the syrian christians, the tibetan buddhists, the bahais, and many other things we did, as I mentioned in my previous posts.

Even the wise Dalai Lama pointed this out as shown in a previous post.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

you are the one making the categorical claim, so you are the one who ought to substantiate it and, of course, you can't because your point is all rhetoric, backed up only by the anecdotal evidence of your friend raymond (nice though he undoubtedly is).

Not only is he nice , he's got a spine as well.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

you see, this is where you betray your supremacism. they're "allowed" by the hindus, are they? where's the equality in that statement?).

And why not. It was the hindus who were ruling India then. You certainly had to get their permission. If you just went and settled over there without telling them, they would just have easily thrashed your people out.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

to say nothing of your implication that muslims alone are to blame for the riots and atrocities of partition!

And why not. It is clear to everyone that the moplah riots, the direct action day riots were started by Islamic terrorists. Also the demand for pakistan was started by the islamic fundamentalists as well, not the hindus.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

presumably that is meant to indicate incredulity. i am not here to big up israel, particularly in relation to india. i've got no interest in "mine's bigger than yours" grandstanding. on the other hand, you seem terribly keen that i acknowledge the wonderfulness without blemish that is india and despite my warmth for indian culture, music, language, etc and my own attachment to my indian heritage, i'm not about to idealise any nation-state.!

And India is more than a nation-state . It is an ancient civilization, on par only with the chinese.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

referring to the jewish population of india as "substantial" is simply another example of it,.!

There are indeed some 60000 jews in India when i last checked. There used to be more, but many of them have left for israel. Have no problems with that.And it indeed is substantial considering the demographics of the jews in the world.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

calling me names is simply an illustration of insecure aggressiveness and shows the nasty streak that came through in your attacks on islam. why do you crave my approval and admiration so much and then throwing your toys out of the pram when you don't get it?

I don't think I have called you names. I only said that those jews who lived in India for centuries without any persecution from the hindus and with full freedom of worship , who left India immediately because of some rumours ( which never also materialized) are indeed spineless.You can also see that the vast majority have not left due to love for India . Any one can see the logic of it.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

i'm not saying that there isn't anything problematic in the Qur'an. the same accusations are often levelled at the Torah and Tanakh, but of course when you understand the legal tradition that underpins them, these apparently bloodthirsty regulations are not actually actionable outside of a given time and place, unless you happen to be a bunch of revisionist imbeciles like the taleban or other islamist groups. there are plenty of muslims, like muslimwoman for example, who can provide chapter and verse to refute a literalist reading of these verses - if you're actually interested in listening to the answers, why don't you go and ask them on the islam board instead of wasting our time with your diatribes here? i'm sure you'd get far better answers from them than you'll get from me.

And get to the point,you are the one who stated " you started trying to support your argument with quotes from the Qur'an while refusing to accept any contextual interpretation of them from people who clearly understood them better than you".

And I gave you my answer.

<<<<<there are plenty of muslims, like muslimwoman for example, who can provide chapter and verse to refute a literalist reading of these verses >>>>>>


Also where were these 'plenty of muslim ' , when the fundamentalist muslims engaged in offensive warfare against Asia, Africa and Europe, and persecuted the zoroastrians, hindus, sikhs, jains, buddhists, assyrians in asia, and which continues even now as well.




Well, I indeed have been in islamic boards, but unfortunately they seem to like only good sweet things and not the bitter truth, which they never bothered answering. They keep denying what I politely asked them, as western propaganda, even though I said that I am indian, and does not answer me as well. So I decided to get lost from there.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

ah, another spate of name-calling, i'm sure that improves your logic. of course they would be immoral - IF - they were interpreted in the literalist way you are reading them. when interpreted by sensible, sophisticated, learned muslims, they aren't. when interpreted by backward, frustrated, stupid muslims, like rioting pendus or jihadi nincompoops, they are..

And the point of my thread over here is that these 'sensible, sophisticated, learned muslims,' appeared recently and is a microscopic minority , while history is dominated by 'backward, frustrated, stupid muslims,' as can be seen by what happened in Asia,Africa , Europe, and north america.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

hur hur hur. perhaps if you went to one once in a while you might moderate your views enough to have a social life rather than being a keyboard warrior.
..

Well, well, well, so you are saying that I have never been to parties. That itself is empirical evidence for me of your wisdom and intuition( or lack of it).


As for the warrior part, perhaps you should know that the kshatriya code is the most ancient warrior code on earth, just like the hindu martial arts kalaripayattu , is the most ancient martial arts on earth.


I believe that a warrior is someone who fights for a just cause , any cause it may be. And for this reason even Gandhi and his disciple Martin Luther King are warriors as well. It does not at all has to be violent . Animal rights crusaders are warriors as well.

The world is a dangerous place to live , not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
----Albert Einstein

Just a few thoughts of mine on this subject.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

what??? this is absolutely untrue. any jew can marry any other jew. jews are not a race and it makes no difference religiously speaking what colour you are. of course, individual jews are sometimes racist but you don't, for example, get mother-in-laws complaining "oh this fiancée of his is a bit dark - it is a shame he couldn't find someone wheatish" - and don't dare tell me that indians don't care about this - just look! desi date wheatish - Google Search
..

Well, I saw pictures of protesting black jews and reports about them in the newspapers about how they were saying that they too have the same blood as the white jews and stuff. They seemed to be very angry and hurt, if you ask me.

And with respect to India, people of all skin colours marry each without any problems , also arranged marriages are still in vogue in India.

My own parents belong to different skin colours.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

is that supposed to be a superiority thing?..

Well, you indeed have to admit we are one-sixth of humanity.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

the last time we reached the 20 million mark was during the 1930s.... unfortunately, you know, we ended up with a bit of a demographic problem for some reason....

Yeah I know ,and sorry about that. It hurts me too.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

well, you clearly don't know anything about the jewish mystical tradition which contains concepts virtually identical to these. why not actually open your mind? you might learn something.

And where did I say that i don't know anything about jewish mystical tradition. I have gone through a bit of the kaballah.

So are you saying that there is something like jnana yoga in judaism, where one tries to find God through discrimination and reason only, and in the end where one becomes one with God, or enlightened.

Also the same with raja yoga--as explained by our prophet Vivekananda in the beginning , and which includes many features, like pranayama,pratyahara,breathing exercises, meditation and stuff and diet control and other features. I have never read about that in judaism. In fact I know of many jews who practice these techniques religiously.

And how many enlightened masters are there in Judaism like Krishna, Buddha, Ramakrishna, J.Krishnamurthy, Sree Narayana Guru, Ramana Maharshi, Mata Amritanandamayi and others.

Anyway as I stated before , I am eager from wisdom and knowledge from any source. If you have any , I am interested.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

maimonides said something very similar..

So, we do have a common ground , I see.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

then what the arse are you doing on a dialogue board? are you getting your spiritual growth and character by attachment to the worldly achievements of the indian state? nirvana, here we come....

I only said we don't care what the jews have to say about idolatry because we have our own views in this, as I stated before. And you have to admit I did talk on this subject.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

oh, here we go. tell you what, mate - why don't you look up what we actually say, rather than assuming you know what you're talking about when you don't. we were chosen because we were chosen to receive the Torah, not "chosen" because we were better. i can't even be bothered to argue this yet again, go and have a look here: Jews as a chosen people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia which ought to answer some of your questions.

And look what I found after fishing. I got a big one.


Deuteronomy 14:2: "You are a holy people unto the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a peculiar people unto Himself, above all peoples that are upon the face of the earth."

[niranjan]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

No, but brutality and violence itself is only very rarely absent from the followers of any single religion..

Please understand the context Brian. Brutality and violence is only very rarely absent from the followers of any single religion, no doubt, but the magnitude of these in Islamic terrorism is a bit too much .

Originally Posted by I, Brian

I might have difficulty pulling out stories of violence committed by Jains or Baha'is, but if they each increased their adherents base to the billion mark, I'm sure it shouldn't be too hard to pull out some bad apples and paint these as typical followers.

Well there are more than 1 billion hindus and 350 million buddhists, which in itself equals the islamic population. Can you say that there is the same amount of violence and suicide bombings among the dharmiks ?

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Let's face it, with something towards 25%-33% of the world's population being Muslim (1.5-2 billion people by all accounts), the suicide bombers seem to be a tiny minority.

That may be so, but they(Islamic terrorists) seem to be in almost every country and against virtually every religion , and does not seem as a minority to the victims.

[bananabrain]

You keep repeating the same argument again.

you don't seem to have understood it. your response is that "because we could have told you to sod off and we didn't, we're better than everyone else" - as i have already pointed out:

a) a lot of other people didn't tell us to sod off (the chinese for a start, but i might actually mention the NORTH AND SOUTH AMERICANS AND CANADIANS here if i felt like it, who could give the indians a run for their money in the being-nice-to-jews-generally stakes)
b) because you didn't tell us to sod off doesn't mean that you are so much "nicer" than everyone else - you might have just been disorganised, or have more pressing problems to deal with - of course it makes you "nicer" than someone who prioritised the need to give us a kicking, but it's still a relative rather than an absolute. i am now done talking about this.

certainly India , due to its credentials which I mentioned above, and which I clearly know that no country on earth has is closer to perfection.

you "clearly know it" but that's not the same thing as actually demonstrating it to others' satisfaction. look, niranjan, you can think what you like about your country, it's no skin off my nose, but you don't get to waltz in here and lecture other people about what they ought to think. it's just boring and doesn't convince anyone.

Bharat which has been there for milleniums and which is the land that gave the bloodiest battle of their lives to Alexander and his troops which demoralized enough to turn back, is not a myth.

"bharat" is a mythological idea, rather like "britannia", "albion" or the arthurian realm of "logres". i am saying that the modern state of india is not the same as "bharat" any more than the modern state of israel is the biblical "eretz yisra'el". of course there are real territories attached to them but it is largely an idealistic, conceptual construct. all of these exist - but i'm not about to pay homage to them simply for the sake of stroking your ego.

And as I said, we don't need your gratitude or anything

then why do you keep going on about it? methinks you protest too much.

Just yesterday a jewish friend of mine pointed out to me the massacre of many young jews in arabia during the time of Mohammed.

again with the muslims. i am perfectly aware of the early history of islam and the context surrounding it - it is far from the simplistic way you are seeking to position it.

Not only is he nice , he's got a spine as well.

this is the fourth time you have repeated this. as a moderator i have to warn you that personal insults to other posters (including me) are not welcomed here. if you don't dial it down, i am going to have you banned. this is your final warning.

It is clear to everyone that the moplah riots, the direct action day riots were started by Islamic terrorists. Also the demand for pakistan was started by the islamic fundamentalists as well, not the hindus.

well, there's a predictable point of view. everything is the fault of the muslims and the hindus are blameless.

And India is more than a nation-state . It is an ancient civilization, on par only with the chinese.

we are another ancient civilisation, if you want to get technical, even though we haven't had the advantage of continuous territorial contiguity.

There are indeed some 60000 jews in India when i last checked. There used to be more, but many of them have left for israel. Have no problems with that.And it indeed is substantial considering the demographics of the jews in the world.

it's less jews than live in *australia* - and nobody's boasting about how large that community is i can tell you.

where were these 'plenty of muslim', when the fundamentalist muslims engaged in offensive warfare against Asia, Africa and Europe, and persecuted the zoroastrians, hindus, sikhs, jains, buddhists, assyrians in asia, and which continues even now as well.

probably the same place the sensible, tolerant hindus are at the moment.

And the point of my thread over here is that these 'sensible, sophisticated, learned muslims,' appeared recently and is a microscopic minority , while history is dominated by 'backward, frustrated, stupid muslims,' as can be seen by what happened in Asia,Africa , Europe, and north america.

so your point is that there are more stupid and violent people in the world than there are sensible people? well, congratulations for pointing out the bleeding obvious.

Well, I saw pictures of protesting black jews and reports about them in the newspapers about how they were saying that they too have the same blood as the white jews and stuff. They seemed to be very angry and hurt, if you ask me.

show me. rather than making generalised rhetorical accusations, show me these pictures and newspaper reports. i think you're misreading something else, but until i can find out what you're on about, i can't actually tell.

And with respect to India, people of all skin colours marry each without any problems, also arranged marriages are still in vogue in India.

nonetheless, there is a small matter of *discrimination*, isn't there, if that google search is anything to go on?

Also the same with raja yoga--as explained by our prophet Vivekananda in the beginning , and which includes many features, like pranayama,pratyahara,breathing exercises, meditation and stuff and diet control and other features. I have never read about that in judaism.

just because it isn't on your reading list that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. you need to read some books by rabbi aryeh kaplan, who is a great authority on the ancient jewish meditation tradition.

In fact I know of many jews who practice these techniques religiously.

if people knew anything about how prayer works in judaism, they'd know how these techniques are used.

And how many enlightened masters are there in Judaism like Krishna, Buddha, Ramakrishna, J.Krishnamurthy, Sree Narayana Guru, Ramana Maharshi, Mata Amritanandamayi and others.

ever heard of r. shimon bar yohai? r. akiva? isaac the blind? the remak? the ramban? the hasidei ashkenaz? the arizal? the ben ish hai? do me a favour and get off your high horse.

And look what I found after fishing. I got a big one.
Deuteronomy 14:2: "You are a holy people unto G!D, and G!D has chosen you to be a peculiar people unto Himself, above all peoples that are upon the face of the earth."

the hebrew says "from", not "above". read the link i posted, niranjan - don't quote ancient texts *in translation* out of context with no idea of the interpretative tradition. it hasn't stopped you doing just that with the Qur'an, i've noticed.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[niranjan]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

you don't seem to have understood it. your response is that "because we could have told you to sod off and we didn't, we're better than everyone else" - as i have already pointed out:

And I am saying that we could have told your people to get lost, but we didn't, and we are the only country in the world who never persecuted the jews who were in a substantial population in India for centuries, and still is.
This indeed makes us better than other countries who have denied the jews refuge, or persecuted their jewish population cruelly.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

a) a lot of other people didn't tell us to sod off (the chinese for a start, but i might actually mention the NORTH AND SOUTH AMERICANS AND CANADIANS here if i felt like it, who could give the indians a run for their money in the being-nice-to-jews-generally stakes) :

So you are saying that the north americans were completely nice to the jews.Thats a laugh. I myself know of north americans who have said some sweet 'compliments' with respect to the jews . Ever heard of Alfred Ford.

And with respect to the south americans , i don't know, except that Brazil is dominated by the portuguese christians , who in India slaughtered the jews, till they were defeated by the hindus.Also Argentina is notorious as the land that gave refuge to many nazis.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

b) because you didn't tell us to sod off doesn't mean that you are so much "nicer" than everyone else - you might have just been disorganised, or have more pressing problems to deal with - of course it makes you "nicer" than someone who prioritised the need to give us a kicking, but it's still a relative rather than an absolute. i am now done talking about this.:

And what does our imaginary 'disorganisation' or 'pressing problems' has to do with the fact that we gave refuge to the persecuted Jews. Another absurd logic.
If you care to notice, there is a hindu tradition .....

Matru devo bhava, pitru devo bhava , guru devo bhava, adithi devo bhava.

Means, treat the mother, father, teacher, and guest as God himself.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

"bharat" is a mythological idea, rather like "britannia", "albion" or the arthurian realm of "logres". i am saying that the modern state of india is not the same as "bharat" any more than the modern state of israel is the biblical "eretz yisra'el". of course there are real territories attached to them but it is largely an idealistic, conceptual construct. all of these exist - but i'm not about to pay homage to them simply for the sake of stroking your ego.

.:

Well , the term Bharat has been used by the Buddha and Chanakya, the ancient statesman who along with chandragupta defeated the greeks and thrashed them from India. So Bharat is not a myth. Also Bharat is the common word used in most languages in India to describe India , rather than the term India itself.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

then why do you keep going on about it? methinks you protest too much.
.:

As I said before ,we don't need your gratitude or anything, but we have every right to say that we are the ones who gave refuge to the jews, and are the only country in the world who have never persecuted them. And I am only reminding this to you, since you seems to have conveniently forgotten about it during your criticism of India.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

again with the muslims. i am perfectly aware of the early history of islam and the context surrounding it - it is far from the simplistic way you are seeking to position it.
.:

Then why are you saying that the muslim fundamentalists didn't persecute you prior to the formation of Israel.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

this is the fourth time you have repeated this. as a moderator i have to warn you that personal insults to other posters (including me) are not welcomed here. if you don't dial it down, i am going to have you banned. this is your final warning.
.:

Well, I like civility and politeness myself, so I would like to be civil and polite, though I also believe in calling a spade a spade.

Also I would like to ask you where were your politeness and civility when you called me a 'pretty lousy hindu' , called an Indian actress 'second grade', and criticized India as well saying it is not a paragon of a multi-cultural society, which if it was true, would have ensured that no jew would have been given refuge and freedom of worship in India for centuries , and that they too would have been persecuted , which they were not.

Also these insults were personally directed at me, while I never personally insulted you. I only stated that the jews who left India because of some rumours ( which never materialized as well) , and who forgot what India has done for them is spineless. This is what I said . It was not personally directed at you, unlike yours.

Anyway I will be civil and polite, because I like being civil and polite.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

well, there's a predictable point of view. everything is the fault of the muslims and the hindus are blameless..:

Then why don't you state the otherwise and say that the moplah riots, the direct action day riots, were not started by the islamic terrorists, and the violent demand for partition was also not started by the islamic fundamentalists.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

we are another ancient civilisation, if you want to get technical, even though we haven't had the advantage of continuous territorial contiguity.
..:

Maybe so, but not as old as ours, and definetely lacking our magnitude as well.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

it's less jews than live in *australia* - and nobody's boasting about how large that community is i can tell you...:

And have these jews been living in australia as well for many centuries with full freedom of worship. If so, then I will put australia on par with India.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

probably the same place the sensible, tolerant hindus are at the moment.

And what do you mean by this. You yourself , due to my arguments, finally conceded praise to India for forward thinking and its policy being 'undoubtedly praiseworthy', and now you are saying that there is no sensible, tolerant hindus .

And I wish to state that we have never engaged in offensive warfare against
Asia, africa and europe.

Hindu nationalism is an instinctive reaction against islamic terrorism, and even then hindu nationalists like Shivaji, were kind and generous to moderate muslims and sufis , and patronised them.

When one of his generals after defeating the subhedar of kalyan and captured a beautiful muslim woman and brought her to him, Shivaji respectfully apologized to her, and appreciated her beauty by saying, "If my mother had been so beautiful, I would have inherited such beauty..." and returned her to her family.

And the same thing is continued by the hindu nationalists, who while they were in power, elected to power A.P.J. Abdul Kalam as the president, initiated friendly ties with pakistan , where they were conveniently betrayed by pakistan in the 1999kargil war, where again India defeated them comprehensively. And in spite of this betrayal, they still initiated ties with them again , though in a more circumspect manner. And the BJP has many muslim ministers and leaders as well. One of our muslim governors too was appointed by the BJP. The BJP leader murl manohar joshi is a big fan of mirza ghalib and has patronised his works and institutions related to him.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

show me. rather than making generalised rhetorical accusations, show me these pictures and newspaper reports. i think you're misreading something else, but until i can find out what you're on about, i can't actually tell.

Well, you asked for it , and here you go.

Israel rejects black Hebrews as Jews


Black Jews - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=002...3E2.0.CO%3B2-5


For Jews Only: Racism Inside Israel: An Interview with Phyllis Bennis


Heres an article on discrimination against arabs as well in israel....

Al-Ahram Weekly | REGION | No Arabic at McDonald's Israel

Originally Posted by bananabrain

nonetheless, there is a small matter of *discrimination*, isn't there, if that google search is anything to go on?

And how does some indians liking fair skinned indians amounts to discrimination. There are also many indians who like dark skin and consider it as erotic and sexy. Would you consider that to be discrimination as well.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

just because it isn't on your reading list that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. you need to read some books by rabbi aryeh kaplan, who is a great authority on the ancient jewish meditation tradition.

This guy lived in 1934-1983. We are talking about yoga and meditation , which was practiced by Indians milleniums back as seen by Patanjalis yoga sutras and buddhas meditation poses.

And does the ancient jewish meditation tradition, encompass similar techniques like pranayama , pratyahara, yogic poses, and diverse meditation techniques. We have extensive literature on all of this.

Also millions around the world are practicing hatha yoga, the Indian meditation systems and techniques , and their numbers are exponentially growing.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

ever heard of r. shimon bar yohai? r. akiva? isaac the blind? the remak? the ramban? the hasidei ashkenaz? the arizal? the ben ish hai? do me a favour and get off your high horse.

To tell the truth I have never heard of them. And I have never heard others talking about them as well. Though I have seen many jews , including other foreigners talking about Mata Amritanandamayi, RAmakrishna, Vivekananda, J.Krishnamurthy, Paramahamsa Yogananda, RAmana Maharshi, Buddha, Sri Sri Ravi Shankar and others.

However we do believe that all paths are divine and masters can come up anywhere.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

the hebrew says "from", not "above". read the link i posted, niranjan - don't quote ancient texts *in translation* out of context with no idea of the interpretative tradition. it hasn't stopped you doing just that with the Qur'an, i've noticed.

Well, you were the one who gave me the link, which was in english, and that is where I got it from. What can I do ?

Also the jews themselves state that they are Gods 'chosen people' and stuff.
I got this from them, and I don't have any need to make it up.


To tell the truth, it is not a big deal, and provides a good laugh as well, which is good for health.

Anyway the jews are not seeing others as unbelievers and persecuting them, unlike what other guys have done.So it is not a big deal really. I find it cute, if you ask me.

[niranjan]

Here are some quotations on intuition ( the superconscious state).



There is no logical way to the discovery of elemental laws. There is only the way of intuition, which is helped by a feeling for the order lying behind the appearance.


The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.


The only real valuable thing is intuition.


The finest emotion of which we are capable is the mystic emotion. Herein lies the germ of all art and all true science. Anyone to whom this feeling is alien, who is no longer capable of wonderment and lives in a state of fear is a dead man. To know that what is impenetrable for us really exists and manifests itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty, whose gross forms alone are intelligible to our poor faculties - this knowledge, this feeling ... that is the core of the true religious sentiment. In this sense, and in this sense alone, I rank myself among profoundly religious men.


The intellect has little to do on the road to discovery. There comes a leap in consciousness, call it intuition or what you will, and the solution comes to you and you don't know how or why.




No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it.


~ Albert Einstein
20th century physicist, creator of the theory of relativity.