The real cause of Islamic terrorism - the yogic perspective

[bananabrain]

whatever, niranjan, india is super, brilliant and fantastic and we should all just be totally impressed. well done there.

as it happens, i am in fact an indian jew, of iraqi extraction. my mother is from mumbai. all i am saying is that what you are saying is, in theory, quite correct, but the reality leaves much to be desired. ask the punjabis. i don't think there's any country in the world that has got this right - i'm not singling india out for criticism, but nor am i saying that it is necessarily a paragon as you seem to want everyone to know. stop banging your patriotic drum - we're here to talk, not lecture each other in a self-aggrandising way.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[niranjan]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

whatever, niranjan, india is super, brilliant and fantastic and we should all just be totally impressed. well done there.

as it happens, i am in fact an indian jew, of iraqi extraction. my mother is from mumbai. all i am saying is that what you are saying is, in theory, quite correct, but the reality leaves much to be desired. ask the punjabis.

And what about the punjabis . As you yourself state that you are an Indian(and conveniently ignores the fact that India is the only country in the world that has not persecuted the jews) you should be knowing that the ISI was behind the training and equipping of misguided sikh youth. And stil sikh militancy was crushed by the sikhs themselves.

In fact we are ourselves having a sikh punjabi prime minister. And the BJP and their allies the Akalis had a thumping victory in Punjab in the recent elections and are ruling punjab now.

I myself have seen many sikhs in the BJP , and many hindu spiritual organisations all over India. And punjabi sikhs are spread all over India, including south India where I come from.

We hindus ourselves see the sikh gurus as our gurus and visit the gurudwaras and worship there.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

i don't think there's any country in the world that has got this right - i'm not singling india out for criticism, but nor am i saying that it is necessarily a paragon as you seem to want everyone to know. stop banging your patriotic drum - we're here to talk, not lecture each other in a self-aggrandising way.

I am not drumming a patriotic drum, just stating facts in order to support my argument , which is obvious to all.

And I must say that even though you are an Indian jew, you still criticize India, without mentioning what India has done for the jews.

You must understand that if we wanted, we could have easily denied your ancestors refuge, or freedom of worship in India, but thats not our style.

We are not asking you to show gratitude to India, we didnt give refuge to the jews for gratitude or anything.

In fact I know of jews who barge into the hindu forums and accuse us of polytheism, animal worship and other crap , and state that they are superior.

And we also put them in their place, without even mentioning that India is the only country in the world that has not persecuted its jewish refugees.

As I said before, we are not asking for gratitude or anything, but at least if possible, defend your fatherland and highlight its positives, instead of merely criticizing it.

[bananabrain]

ahem - i'm not an indian (although i do kind of look like one) and although i have no beef with india (if you'll pardon the expression) i can certainly state that this:

India is the only country in the world that has not persecuted the jews

is quite simply not the case, however praiseworthy india may be. and if subhas chandra bhose or whatever his name was had had his way, that certainly wouldn't have lasted. my family and most of the rest of the mumbai community left in the 50s because it was made pretty clear to them that they were going to be affected by "positive discrimination" under the congress party.

you should be knowing that the ISI was behind the training and equipping of misguided sikh youth. And stil sikh militancy was crushed by the sikhs themselves.

ah, yes, why not blame the pakistanis for everything, that'll help.

basically, niranjan, you're way, way too aggressive about islam. it's not going to make you any friends here any more than my pointing out the shortcomings of the BJP (or the akali dal) is going to endear me to you.

I am not drumming a patriotic drum, just stating facts in order to support my argument , which is obvious to all.

excuse *me*. you are quoting other assertions which support your opinion. something is not a fact unless everyone concerned agrees. and i certainly don't agree with your take on islam. and as for it being "obvious to all", i don't see anyone else agreeing with you - particularly muslimwoman.

In fact I know of jews who barge into the hindu forums and accuse us of polytheism, animal worship and other crap, and state that they are superior.

not on my watch they don't. i don't put up with that sort of thing; there are idiots and ignoramuses in all religions - including hinduism.

at least if possible, defend your fatherland and highlight its positives, instead of merely criticizing it.

it's not my "fatherland". this is just jingoistic nonsense. i am *reacting* to *your* overly aggressive and tendentious statements about islam, which have no place on an interfaith *dialogue* board. your overweening arrogance about the political marvelousness of india is quite breathtaking and in my opinion quite unbecoming. i don't bang the drum for any nation-state - none of them are perfect and frankly i find uncritical, rose-tinted patriotism quite nauseating. might i invite you over to a more political and less restrained blog, Pickled Politics where the various indians, pakistanis, bangladeshis, hindus, sikhs, muslims and buddhists will provide a far more literate criticism of your position than i can supply. you'll get very little joy here at CR with your attitude.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[niranjan]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

ahem - i'm not an indian (although i do kind of look like one) and although i have no beef with india (if you'll pardon the expression) i can certainly state that this:

Well, you did say that your mom is from mumbai, which means you belongs to the jews who fled to India from the roman tyranny.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

and if subhas chandra bhose or whatever his name was had had his way, that certainly wouldn't have lasted. :

And where have Bose stated that he was anti-semitic. In fact if you care to check, he was the only man who publicly criticized Hitler in Germany.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

my family and most of the rest of the mumbai community left in the 50s because it was made pretty clear to them that they were going to be affected by "positive discrimination" under the congress party.:

So when you were living in India all these centuries , you had no problems whatsoever.

When some rumours came up that the congress party is going to discriminate or something, which they have not because of their constant emphasis on secularism, you found it convenient to leave the land that had sheltered you for centuries.

And as for jews in India, there is clearly a strong jewish population in Mumbai and rest of India, including south India. Wonder why they have not left like you. I myself have a jewish friend from Mumbai, Raymond, with whom I had enjoyed life with, and he himself stated that there are lots of jews in India.
He is also a patriot and very keen on the indian cricket games, as he was always hooked on the transistor. While he is intensely proud of his heritage and his roots, he is also devoted to hinduism and practices meditation. In fact we met in an ashram. We used to talk about Israel and the Israeli-arab wars and stuff and museums in Israel containing soaps made of human beings and other stuff. Really hurt me a lot, just as I was traumatised by reading the book on Anne Frank.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

ah, yes, why not blame the pakistanis for everything, that'll help.:

And why not, captured sikh terrorists themselves have stated the ISI is helping them. Where else do you think these guys got all the sophisticated weapons and training from!

Also terrorists in Kashmir have also targetted Israelis visiting there. Just for the sake of information.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

basically, niranjan, you're way, way too aggressive about islam. it's not going to make you any friends here any more than my pointing out the shortcomings of the BJP (or the akali dal) is going to endear me to you.
.:

I am only pointing out islamic terrorism and its roots as shown by our prophet. I am only aggressive against islamic terrorism , not Islam, which I have stated before.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

excuse *me*. you are quoting other assertions which support your opinion. something is not a fact unless everyone concerned agrees. and i certainly don't agree with your take on islam. and as for it being "obvious to all", i don't see anyone else agreeing with you - particularly muslimwoman.
.:

And why do you think Tao supported 'most of my views' . Also I had got appreciation from others as well on this, and I thank them for this, though I would have continued even if they appreciated me or not.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

not on my watch they don't. i don't put up with that sort of thing; there are idiots and ignoramuses in all religions - including hinduism..:

And where are hindus who criticize judaism, if you don't mind.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

it's not my "fatherland". this is just jingoistic nonsense. ..:

It is indeed your fatherland, as it is the land that gave your persecuted ancestors refuge and freedom of worship , and never persecuted your people , even if every other country did so.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

your overweening arrogance about the political marvelousness of india is quite breathtaking and in my opinion quite unbecoming.

And why don't you state the otherwise, and how the Indians persecuted the jews, zoroastrians, bahais , tibetan buddhists, syrian christians, and that we don't have a muslim president, or a sikh prime minister, or a christian lady who is the leader of the ruling party in India.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

i don't bang the drum for any nation-state - none of them are perfect and frankly i find uncritical, rose-tinted patriotism quite nauseating.

Well, none of them is perfect, especially Israel, but I believe India comes closer to perfection.

Originally Posted by bananabrain

might i invite you over to a more political and less restrained blog, Pickled Politics where the various indians, pakistanis, bangladeshis, hindus, sikhs, muslims and buddhists will provide a far more literate criticism of your position than i can supply. you'll get very little joy here at CR with your attitude.

I have already been in very unrestrained blogs and forums and all the time , I had indeed put all of them in place.

When I have the time , I will indeed come to the blog you mention, and I wish to thank you for it as well. I love challenges.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by niranjan

From all this , you can see that India is indeed in a position to be held up of a paragon or exemplar of how to run a multicultural society.

Well India is a country that I am interested in visiting but I'm not sure about being a paragon. There seems to be a part of the establishment that wants to limit religious freedom: specifically from Hinduism to Buddhism and Christianity, going by what I read here:

…Hindus from the former Untouchable castes are converting to Buddhism in protest at the continuing discrimination they face.
Conversion is a highly charged political issue. Several states have passed laws this year making it harder to convert, and the mass ceremonies will infuriate Hindu nationalist parties that have been campaigning to stop lower caste Hindus changing their religion.
But for many Dalits, as Untouchables are now known, conversion is the only way to escape the oppression they still face in Hindu society.
Gujarat, home to some of the most hardline Hindu groups, has introduced a more controversial law under which Buddhism is considered part of Hinduism.

from:Conversion to escape discrimination.

s.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I might be old but I'm not that bloody old!!!!

So, just for the record, how old are you?

s.

[niranjan]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Well India is a country that I am interested in visiting but I'm not sure about being a paragon. There seems to be a part of the establishment that wants to limit religious freedom: specifically from Hinduism to Buddhism and Christianity, going by what I read here:.

The so-called establishment has made it clear that it opposes missionary groups that uses fraudulent methods to convert, like anti-hindu propaganda, fear of hell and stuff,bribery and coercion.

Other non-prosleytising christian sects in India have also condemned these missionaries, for stealing their own flock from their sects to their sects.

And as for the buddhists, the so-called establishment is not bothered about them, as buddhism is a part of hindu and dharmic culture, ( it is considered a dharmic religion), and they themselves worship the buddha and have extended support to the dalai lama.

Originally Posted by Snoopy

But for many Dalits, as Untouchables are now known, conversion is the only way to escape the oppression they still face in Hindu society.
Gujarat, home to some of the most hardline Hindu groups, has introduced a more controversial law under which Buddhism is considered part of Hinduism.:.

I also wish to state that it is only a few dalits who are converting to other religions, and most of the time , they have come back to their religion on their own or through the efforts of hindu spiritual organisations.

Also wish to state that the caste system or untouchability has no santion in the vedas. Krishna and Buddha and other enlightened masters have stated that it is the karma or aptitude or inclination that determines the caste and not birth.

Parashurama, who was born as a brahmana, became a kshatriya when he fought against injustice with martial deeds.

Both Buddha and Vishwamitra and Guru Nanak , who were born as Kshatriyas, became Brahmanas, through contemplation of the Divine and meditation and wisdom.


The caste system was originally based on this, but later it became corrupted to the birth based system. It is akin to the feudal system that was there in Europe and Japan.

Our masters from medieval times itself have condemned caste discrimination, which includes mirabai,dhyaneshwar,eknath, tulsidas,narsi mehta, ramananda,ramanuja,tukaram, all of whom belonged to the upper castes.


There are also numerous enlightened masters that came from the shudra castes, who can be seen as the true representatives of Hinduism as seen by Sree Narayana Guru, Chattampi Swamigal, Tiruvalluvar, Guru RAvi Das,Swami Chinmayananda, Bogar,Nammalvar,Dadu,Gorobha Kumbhar,Janabai, Kabir,Phule,Namdev,Nataraja Guru, and many others.

And enlightened masters of the shudras along with the others have indeed worked to eradicate caste discrimination in India.


And incessant efforts are going on now as well by all hindu spiritual organisations to eradicate whatever is left of caste discrimination.


Anyway the caste system , like the feudal system elsewhere, have been banned in India 60 years back, and anyone practicing caste discrimination is arrested and prosecuted.

The arya samaj , founded by Swami Dayananda Saraswati and strictly based on the vedas, promotes inter-caste marriages, and as a result , intercaste marriages are rampant in India.

In fact, most of the rishis, belonged to the lower economic groups. Valmiki and Vyasa, who composed the epics ramayana and mahabharatha, were shudras as well.



I myself belong to the shudra and so-called 'untouchable' caste of Sree Narayana Guru , the famous hindu enlightened master of south India.

We also have a female hindu enlightened master from the dalit caste, Mata Amritanandamayi , who is world famous as the hugging saint, and it is a common sight to see upper caste people falling at her feet in reverence and devotion and calling her Mother.

[Snoopy]

The quote and my information come from The Independent, a reliable newspaper I would say; I am not basing my post on any agenda that I have. Sections of the establishment are clearly “bothered” or they wouldn’t be attempting to prevent conversion by bringing in laws to ban it. Buddhism may be a dharmic religion but it is clearly being targeted to prevent people moving away from Hinduism, according to this article and an interview I have read elsewhere. Buddhism is distinct from Hinduism in fundamental ways, or else people would not bother to convert. My understanding is that it is not just a “few” converting. I have read of this phenomenon on several occasions and seen it reported on TV, that of “mass” conversions taking place, not just a few here and there. The caste system may be banned but just from my own experience in the UK I am aware that it is still unfortunately very much “alive and well.”

s.

[niranjan]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Buddhism may be a dharmic religion but it is clearly being targeted to prevent people moving away from Hinduism, according to this article and an interview I have read elsewhere..

And as I say it is not being targetted at all. The sangh parivar themselves have the pictures of buddha, and they don't mind hindus converting to buddhism, but not to other religions.

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Buddhism is distinct from Hinduism in fundamental ways, or else people would not bother to convert. My understanding is that it is not just a “few” converting. ..

Buddhism is distinct in the sense that it does not have the social institution of caste system, which as I stated is condemned by hindu enlightened masters as well.

The buddha himself is a sannyasin and a jnana yogi.

The dalai lama himself has said that buddhism is very similar to hinduism, and both can be considered as sister religions.

Vivekananda and Gandhi, state that buddhists are hindus themselves. And this view is echoed by scholars themselves that buddhism is the reformed version of Hinduism.

Originally Posted by Snoopy

I have read of this phenomenon on several occasions and seen it reported on TV, that of “mass” conversions taking place, not just a few here and there. The caste system may be banned but just from my own experience in the UK I am aware that it is still unfortunately very much “alive and well.”

s.

There indeed are thousands who have converted to Buddhism as a political protest, but again many of them returned back to hinduism as I stated before ,adopting the teachings of the buddha as well, i hope.


And you have to understand that India is a land of 1 billion 200 million , about one-fith of humanity, and its population is greater than that of eurasia itself.

There will be a few cases here and there, just as you can find cases of racism in Europe and Russia, which if brought together will be magnified.

There are 150 million dalits , but you only find some thousands converting and most of them coming back as well.

Caste discrimination is indeed eradicated to a very large extent, which I myself as a shudra and so-called untouchable knows, though it may be practiced in certain rural areas, outside the jurisdiction of law and order.
And the government is indeed focussing in these areas which are also highlighted by the media. The hindu spiritual organisations are also working on this on a war footing.


Also due to the rapidly growing economy of India, we will indeed see modernised police forces every where and a good judiciary as well to cope with it.

It is only a matter of time, before the remnants of it are wiped out as well.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by niranjan

And as I say it is not being targetted at all. The sangh parivar themselves have the pictures of buddha, and they don't mind hindus converting to buddhism, but not to other religions.

A person should be free to convert to whatever religion they want.

Buddhism is distinct in the sense that it does not have the social institution of caste system, which as I stated is condemned by hindu enlightened masters as well.

Buddhism is clearly distinct in many other fundamental ways as well.

The dalai lama himself has said that buddhism is very similar to hinduism, and both can be considered as sister religions.

Vivekananda and Gandhi, state that buddhists are hindus themselves. And this view is echoed by scholars themselves that buddhism is the reformed version of Hinduism.

Yes, the Buddha was born in India so there is a relationship between them, maybe call them sister religions then. However, I think most people who call themselves Buddhist would not also call themselves Hindu.

s.

[niranjan]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

A person should be free to convert to whatever religion they want.

Yes , I agree with that. But not through coercion or bribery and propaganda against other religions.

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Buddhism is clearly distinct in many other fundamental ways as well..

And what ways if you care to explain.

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Yes, the Buddha was born in India so there is a relationship between them, maybe call them sister religions then. However, I think most people who call themselves Buddhist would not also call themselves Hindu.

s.

Some buddhists in India,do call themselves hindu, and one friend of mine chants the gayatri mantra.

We don't care whether the buddhists call themselves hindu or not. Its not our problem, though they themselves keep stating that hinduism is very similar to buddhism.

As far as our prophet Vivekananda and Gandhi and other spiritual masters are concerned , they are hindu. However we are not interested in enforcing this belief in the buddhists. They are free to believe what they want.

The Buddhists too revere OM, which you must know is Hindu . Om Mani Padme Hum is a very important prayer of the buddhists. In fact it is said that all the teachings of the buddha is contained in this mantra.

Also the Buddhists believe in reincarnation , the theory of karma, and salvation from the cycle of birth and rebirth , vegetarianism , nirvana, like the hindus and which are the original beliefs of the hindus.

They also stress meditation like the hindus and also chastity, humility, sannyasa like the hindus. They also shave their heads and wear orange robes like hindu monks.

You can clearly see meditation postures of the Buddha in yogic poses, like Shiva and others.

And both the hindus and buddhists believe that nirvana or enlightenment is the goal of human life.

The vaishnavas, probably awed by the superhuman feats of the buddha incorporated him as the 9th avatar of Vishnu, (which I don't believe.)

The Ramakrishna mission, has the tradition of initiating monks before the statue of the Buddha, which was started by Vivekananda.

You can see the statues and pictures of the Buddha in many hindu institutions and many hindu spiritual masters quote his teachings .

[Snoopy]

Perhaps I should make clear I find appellations restrictive, as this exchange is beginning to demonstrate to me. I know little of Hinduism other than it seems to involve a great many deities. I know a little of Buddhism and do not believe in deities. Like the dalai lama, I don’t think the world needs religion right now. My interest in Buddhism and what it means to me is derived from the truths I see in it and it not being a “religion” to me.

Originally Posted by niranjan

And what ways if you care to explain.

Crumbs. I think a cursory look around the internet or any decent books will show an interested person the differences. Buddhism to me is essentially a psychological toolkit, a means to improve our psychological health and (perhaps) those around us. It is concerned with the mind, not essentially with worshipping and praying to deities.

The Buddhists too revere OM, which you must know is Hindu . Om Mani Padme Hum is a very important prayer of the buddhists. In fact it is said that all the teachings of the buddha is contained in this mantra.

Also the Buddhists believe in reincarnation , the theory of karma, and salvation from the cycle of birth and rebirth , vegetarianism , nirvana, like the hindus and which are the original beliefs of the hindus.

They also stress meditation like the hindus and also chastity, humility, sannyasa like the hindus. They also shave their heads and wear orange robes like hindu monks.

As I say I can only speak of Buddhism in the way it is of “use” to me and I do not describe myself as a Buddhist (and never will) but:
Om is not important to me, I do not pray, I do not believe in reincarnation (of the soul; no-one calling themselves a Buddhist will because there is no “soul” to a Buddhist) and I am a vegetarian but not because of Buddhism, Buddhism per se does not promote vegetarianism. Monks may shave their heads and wear particular clothes but what makes you a Buddhist (or not) is what one thinks and does, not ones appearance. Even if I was to call myself a Buddhist there are great differences between traditions and schools, making comparisons to Hinduism difficult. Also, similar terms in Hinduism and Buddhism do not I understand always mean the same.

s.

[I, Brian]

niranjan, I think calling Buddhists as Hindus sounds like calling Christians as Jews.

Perhaps one of our Buddhist friends would care to enlighten us on the distinction?

[niranjan]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Perhaps I should make clear I find appellations restrictive, as this exchange is beginning to demonstrate to me. I know little of Hinduism other than it seems to involve a great many deities. I know a little of Buddhism and do not believe in deities. .

There are deities in Hinduism including the trinity, but it is also stated that all these deities are the manifestation of the supreme impersonal being Brahman.

Also in Hinduism too, you don't have to believe in deities to achieve nirvana, and a study of Ramana Maharhi, or J.Krishnamurthi or Jnana Yoga or raja yoga or karma yoga is enough to understand this.

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Like the dalai lama, I don’t think the world needs religion right now. My interest in Buddhism and what it means to me is derived from the truths I see in it and it not being a “religion” to me. .

Fine, you are free to believe what you want to believe. What matters is whether you are a good human being or not and achieve enlightenment.

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Crumbs. I think a cursory look around the internet or any decent books will show an interested person the differences. Buddhism to me is essentially a psychological toolkit, a means to improve our psychological health and (perhaps) those around us. It is concerned with the mind, not essentially with worshipping and praying to deities. .

So you know more than the dalai lama and Vivekananda who are experts in dharmic culture!

Anyway , any so-called interested person can also by going through the internet or good books will indeed find similarities between hinduism and buddhism, and there are many of them. Both the ultimate goal of hinduism and buddhism itself is nirvana or enlightenment. Do you wish to argue with that !!!!!!!!!

And Buddhism according to westerners may be about psychological health and stuff, but its ultimate aim and most important teaching of the Buddha is indeed nirvana or enlightenment.

Originally Posted by Snoopy

As I say I can only speak of Buddhism in the way it is of “use” to me and I do not describe myself as a Buddhist (and never will) but:
Om is not important to me, I do not pray, I do not believe in reincarnation (of the soul; no-one calling themselves a Buddhist will because there is no “soul” to a Buddhist) and I am a vegetarian but not because of Buddhism, Buddhism per se does not promote vegetarianism. Monks may shave their heads and wear particular clothes but what makes you a Buddhist (or not) is what one thinks and does, not ones appearance. Even if I was to call myself a Buddhist there are great differences between traditions and schools, making comparisons to Hinduism difficult. Also, similar terms in Hinduism and Buddhism do not I understand always mean the same.

s.

And why are you saying all this stuff to me. Did I ask you about your personal beliefs. I don't think so. You are free to believe what you want to believe.There is no problem in it. As our prophet Vivekananda himself said, organised religion is bad for spiritual health.

Follow your own intuitions and logic and thereby you will tune yourself to the divine and will find your way and path.

[niranjan]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

niranjan, I think calling Buddhists as Hindus sounds like calling Christians as Jews.

As I said before, this is the perspective of hinduism and the hindu prophets and enlightened masters and leaders, but we are not interested in imposing this belief on others. That is not our concern.


And about jews and christians, the jews , from what i know , do not believe in christ or accept him as a messiah or prophet.

They believe that those who follow the teachings of judaism and moses will go to heaven.

On the other hand the christians believe that only those who accept Christ will go to heaven, and the rest will go to hell, no matter how noble or good they are, they are still losers because they do not know or accept christ, and this includes the jews as well.


On the other hand hinduism and buddhism maintains that it is character that is most important and even an atheist of good character, will attain heaven or enligtenment.

According to hinduism , a good buddhist, rather than a bad hindu , will go to heaven or attain enlightenment.

The most important goal in hinduism and buddhism is nirvana or enlightenment .

And if a hindu decides to follow the buddhist path to attain nirvana, he does not cease to be a hindu, as he is only following the teaching of hinduism to pursue nirvana through whichever goal he finds suitable.


You must understand that the philosophy and metaphysics of the dharmic religions hinduism and buddhism is not in the same class as that of the abrahamic religions.