The real cause of Islamic terrorism - the yogic perspective

[niranjan]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Could it be a possibility that the preaching of force was bought to the Arabs from God through Mohammed? You seem to have no problem with Joan of arc. I'm not saying it is, but im not saying its not. When i see the nature of the violence used and preached I would sway towards it being a serious theological error which can not contribute at all to anything florishing.

Well , I have read no works of Joan, so I cannot comment on her mental state.

I think that the voices she heard from God, could be the activation of her superconscious mind as well, through intense faith and love for God and Jesus.

However the use of force by Joan, manifesting in war, is in the cause of self-defence , and is definetely not offensive warfare. She has also not sanctioned sadistic physical torture like chopping off fingers and limbs and other revolting stuff.

Also I have read that while she lead the French troops, she herself has not killed any enemy soldier in combat, though she was wounded a couple of times.

[arthra]

I just wanted to say I appreciated Naranjan's focus on the persecutions of Baha'is in the Middle East...but we Baha'is do not blame Prophet Muhammad or the Qur'an for this.

We would also differ with the statement quoted from Swami Vivekananda:

"If you read the Koran, you find the most wonderful truths mixed with superstitions. How will you explain it? That man was inspired, no doubt, but that inspiration was, as it were, stumbled upon. He was not a trained Yogi, and did not know the reason of what he was doing. Think of the good Mohammed did to the world, and think of the great evil that has been done through his fanaticism!"

As much as we can appreciate all that Swami Vivekananda did to raise the understanding of Hinduism and Vedanta philosophy we would differ with him in this regard. We accept that the Qur'an as revealed Word of God and only peoples' interpretations have been used and exploited to try to justify their fanaticism.

The principle also of the Buddha mentioned above

"Believe nothing, merely because you have been told it, or because it is traditional or because you yourselves have imagined it. ..."

Is also very much like principle in our Writings of "independent investigation of truth"

- Art

[Pathless]

Ah. The Baha'is--I still have trouble spelling that--are humble, peaceful folk.

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by Dor

Pathless where are you at? I mean where do you live?
Heck your hatred toward America, Im sure you either enjoy living in America or some country we have either saved their ass or paid their way.

Dissidence is not the same thing as hatred, Dor. I do live in America, in a free-thinking household, in America.

My ass, as well, belongs to me. And I continue to pay and pave my own way.

[Postmaster]

The principle also of the Buddha mentioned above

"Believe nothing, merely because you have been told it, or because it is traditional or because you yourselves have imagined it. ..."

Is also very much like principle in our Writings of "independent investigation of truth"

If you can’t take anything to be absolute truth doesn’t that threaten monotheism?

[arthra]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

If you can’t take anything to be absolute truth doesn’t that threaten monotheism?

Hello Postmaster!

Were you asking me?

O.K., well independent investigation of truth is something we feel is essential in the search for truth rather than just accepting what someone else tells us.

In our Faith we also believe truth is relative to the time it was revealed and that revelation is progressive. God is one (monotheism) but also unknowable for us...but we can appreciate and get some sense about reality if we seek it for ourselves.

Unfortunately for many people i would suggest that their view of God is static and what they view as absolute and never changing. Every thing changes...everything.

- Art

[niranjan]

Originally Posted by arthra

I just wanted to say I appreciated Naranjan's focus on the persecutions of Baha'is in the Middle East...but we Baha'is do not blame Prophet Muhammad or the Qur'an for this.

We would also differ with the statement quoted from Swami Vivekananda:

"If you read the Koran, you find the most wonderful truths mixed with superstitions. How will you explain it? That man was inspired, no doubt, but that inspiration was, as it were, stumbled upon. He was not a trained Yogi, and did not know the reason of what he was doing. Think of the good Mohammed did to the world, and think of the great evil that has been done through his fanaticism!"

As much as we can appreciate all that Swami Vivekananda did to raise the understanding of Hinduism and Vedanta philosophy we would differ with him in this regard. We accept that the Qur'an as revealed Word of God and only peoples' interpretations have been used and exploited to try to justify their fanaticism.

Well, I have no problem with that. It is your perspective and you are free to believe in it.
We Hindus on the other hand believe in what Vivekananda has said, and we consider him to be a prophet .
Many hindus , in fact, see him as the incarnation of Shiva himself, and he is very popular in India and popular all over the world.

Originally Posted by arthra

The principle also of the Buddha mentioned above

"Believe nothing, merely because you have been told it, or because it is traditional or because you yourselves have imagined it. ..."

Is also very much like principle in our Writings of "independent investigation of truth"

- Art

Well, if there is a principle in the Bahai writings of " independent investigation of truth "(which I know about ) then I must say it is only logical that you should have the audacity to question everything, and not accept anything just because someone said so.(including what you have stated about the quran.)

[Postmaster]

"Independent investigation of truth" I guess is kind of like saying everything is suggestive and fact is only existent in the ignorant mind. I buy it.

[zeras]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

"Independent investigation of truth" I guess is kind of like saying everything is suggestive and fact is only existent in the ignorant mind. I buy it.

Asalaamulikum.

hmmm, terror? which means fear. If a bunch of people goes around spearding fear among people, it is not ovious that it is not a religion?
Seriously Allah {STW} even said no to commite sucide at all cost, yes I do understand that people when something has happened can loss their human side, but that is the stuggle (jihad), it is the inner struggle to do good at all cost and not to do evil and staying away from the exteames.

Salaamulikum
(peace be upon you)

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by niranjan

3. (Koran 69:30-37) "It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. You desire the lure of this world and Allah desires for you the hereafter and Allah is Mighty, Wise.. Now enjoy what you have won as lawful and good and keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is forgiving, merciful."

This is not in 69:30-37 so where are you getting your quotes from?

Originally Posted by niranjan

4. (Koran 69:30-37) "(It will be said) Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. And then insert him in a chain whereof the length is seventy cubits. Lo! he used not to believe in God the tremendous, and urged not on the feeding of the wretched. Therefore hath he no lover hear this day nor any food save filth which none but sinners eat."

Now let us put this into context niranjan. Your posts, as many people do, take certain verses from the Quran and say there you go proof, in an attempt to inflame people. This verse is taken from Sura al-haaqqa (which means the reality). I hope I am allowed to post a link so that everyone can read the whole Sura (it is quite short), it has 3 different translations so that no-one can say "oh but something is lost in translation".

USC-MSA Compendium of Muslim Texts

You begin your quotes at verse 30 - WHY? By doing this you have completely missed the point of the Sura. The Sura is about the sure reality - that is that our behaviour will count for or against us on judgement day. It tells us that on the day of judgement "not an act of yours that ye hide will be hidden". It goes on to explain that for those given their book in the left hand (ie sinners) G-d (not the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) or Muslims) will command that he be put in hell and inserted into a chain etc. So these horrors are a part of the punishment for those sent to hell. Where exactly do you get the idea that that even remotely discusses or encourages terrorism?

You completely fail to discuss the historical context of the era, the methods of warfare and punishments for crime during that era and geographical area.

And it is these reasons, along with desire for political power, that people become misguided and use the Quran as an excuse to commit these attrocities.

You seem quite content that Joan of Arc and her army were fighting a righteous battle, yet Muslims chopping fingers off was in your opinion against morality. Joan and her army carried very sharp broadswords - do you think they killed and maimed in a nice way?

I am not saying that the Quran does not discuss war or punishments, it does and it lays down very strict rules for warfare, which was unheard of in those days. For any Muslim these days to take verses from the Quran and wreak havoc and bloodshed in the world is utterly wrong and is completely against the teachings of Islam.

As you quote carefully picked out verses from the Quran to point out how Islam promotes terror I shall respond in peace:

When they do aught that is shameful, they say: "We found our fathers doing so"; and "Allah commanded us thus": Say: "Nay, Allah never commands what is shameful: do ye say of Allah what ye know not?" (Quran 7:28)

God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)

The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) has forbidden punishment with fire.
He once listed murder as the second of the major sins, and he even warned that on the Day of Judgment, The first cases to be adjudicated between people on the Day of Judgment will be those of bloodshed.

God commands justice and doing good and giving to relatives. And He forbids indecency and doing wrong and tyranny. He warns you so that hopefully you will pay heed. (Quran, 16:90)

And do good as God has been good to you. And do not seek to cause corruption in the earth. God does not love corrupters. (Quran, 28:77)

Be good to your parents and relatives and to orphans and the very poor, and to neighbours who are related to you and neighbours who are not related to you, and to companions and travellers and your slaves. God does not love anyone vain or boastful. (Qur'an, 4:36)

Help one another in benevolence and piety. Do not help each other to wrongdoing and enmity. And fear God. God is severe in retribution. (Qur'an, 5:2)

Gosh that really makes me want to rush out and commit murder I could go on all night quoting verses of peace from the Quran.

By the way I have been rather offended by the tone of some of your posts on this thread. I accept this is an emotional issue but please discuss Islam with respect, Muslims will be happy to discuss issues with you if you are respectful even on such a difficult topic.

Salaam

[Tao_Equus]

Hmmm, Niranjan it seems to me is getting a bit of a bashing from all you monotheists out there. Am I the only one that see's his/her point? Though it has been repeatedly stated. Is Nirinjan not alowed to suggest that each of us is capable of devine enlightenment? And that perhaps Mohamaad and his followers and editors down the ages did not fully comprehend its source?

Sure his cut and pastes are infuriatingly long, something that often puts me off and is against the overall spirit of CR. It is in the comparative section and I feel that you are all jumping on him like it was in the mono section, where you would have just cause. But this is not a hate inspired topic, far from it, and thus I dont understand this mass hostility.

My personal veiw of the Quoran is that it is highly dubious as an historical document. That it underwent careful editing by a powerful elite after the death of Muhamaad. (and all hadiths are the work of these same elites). And I dont trust powerful elites then or now. I have read much, if not all of it and to be frank I find a lot of it disengeniously manipulative and designed to control tha populace rather than promote ascension to a better future either here on Earth or beyond. I have little difference of opinion on the standard English Bible either. The Torah I am sadly ignorant of.

Do not many Christians speak of Rapture, this meeting in life of the holy spirit? Is this not what Niranjan speaks of? Please shout at this guy to cut out the cut n pastes, I'l back you on that, but at least try to listen to what he's trying to say. And correct me if I am wrong, that it is misinterpretation of the 'vision' and subsequent manipulation of its content that is behind Islamic extremism. I personaly say he has a point.

My 2c worth

TE

Note to Nianjan: As Muslimwoman has found some inconsistencies in your quoting it serves as a good example of why it is best to use your own words and thoughts to express an opinion. Plus a lot of us here despise cut and pastes as much as I do and you will find few people willing to engage you in debate if you use them. Regards TE

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Hmmm, Niranjan it seems to me is getting a bit of a bashing from all you monotheists out there. Am I the only one that see's his/her point? Though it has been repeatedly stated. Is Nirinjan not alowed to suggest that each of us is capable of devine enlightenment? And that perhaps Mohamaad and his followers and editors down the ages did not fully comprehend its source?

Sure his cut and pastes are infuriatingly long, something that often puts me off and is against the overall spirit of CR. It is in the comparative section and I feel that you are all jumping on him like it was in the mono section, where you would have just cause. But this is not a hate inspired topic, far from it, and thus I dont understand this mass hostility.

My personal veiw of the Quoran is that it is highly dubious as an historical document. That it underwent careful editing by a powerful elite after the death of Muhamaad. (and all hadiths are the work of these same elites). And I dont trust powerful elites then or now. I have read much, if not all of it and to be frank I find a lot of it disengeniously manipulative and designed to control tha populace rather than promote ascension to a better future either here on Earth or beyond. I have little difference of opinion on the standard English Bible either. The Torah I am sadly ignorant of.

Do not many Christians speak of Rapture, this meeting in life of the holy spirit? Is this not what Niranjan speaks of? Please shout at this guy to cut out the cut n pastes, I'l back you on that, but at least try to listen to what he's trying to say. And correct me if I am wrong, that it is misinterpretation of the 'vision' and subsequent manipulation of its content that is behind Islamic extremism. I personaly say he has a point.

My 2c worth

TE

Note to Nianjan: As Muslimwoman has found some inconsistencies in your quoting it serves as a good example of why it is best to use your own words and thoughts to express an opinion. Plus a lot of us here despise cut and pastes as much as I do and you will find few people willing to engage you in debate if you use them. Regards TE

As salaam aleykum

My sincere apologies Niranjan, I have re-read my post and I was being a bit confrontational which is not what I wanted. As I said at the end of my post if you wish to discuss Islam then please do it in a respectful way and try to understand that Muslims must spend half their lives defending Islam against fundamentalist extremeists, it gets tiring and is a very difficult topic for us. But I was wrong to be so judgemental of your views and am happy to discuss the matter further if you wish.

Tao, thanks for your veiled reprimand, it was well deserved. The topic makes moderate Muslims so unhappy because we know the real teaching of Islam is nothing to do with terrorrism or oppression, so we tend to go a bit o.t.t., with our defence.

I agree that it is misinterpretation and manipulation that causes all religious extremism.

Also Tao & everyone, may I apologise for the cut and pastes in Islamic posts but we are not allowed to say the Quran says .......then give a generalisation in our own words. When we quote the Quran we must insert the verse so it can not be misrepresented. Hope you all understand and will try to keep them to a minimum.

By the way do people actually know the true meaning of the word Jihad? People more often then not refer to Islamic Jihad as Holy War - absolute rubbish. It means directed struggle. The Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) said that "the supreme jihad is against oneself" (i.e., one's ego, greed, desires, etc).

"Jihad is any earnest striving in the way of G-d, and can include personal, physical, intellectual, as well as military effort, for righteousness and against oppression and wrong-doing". Ziauddin Sardar & Zafar Abbas Malik

This is why moderate Muslims will always say terrorists are going against Islam, because they are not defending the Muslim way of life, rather they are attacking and killing civilians which is forbidden.

Salaam

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

As salaam aleykum



Tao, thanks for your veiled reprimand, it was well deserved.

And I am sorry if you felt it was particularly directed against you... for it certainly was not. I read the whole thread before posting and was commenting on the thread as a whole.

Also Tao & everyone, may I apologise for the cut and pastes in Islamic posts but we are not allowed to say the Quran says .......

I am aware of this and it is a conributory factor to my own veiws on the practice of Islam.

May I also add for clarity that I enjoy your posts and your efforts to defend your faith against ignorance. Whatever my own beliefs I still have a high regard for the expression of faith any other person holds dear. My veiw of all organised religion is sceptical but I am a deeply spiritual person and recognise that each of us finds their own path to walk.

Kind regards

TE

[wil]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

By the way do people actually know the true meaning of the word Jihad? People more often then not refer to Islamic Jihad as Holy War - absolute rubbish. It means directed struggle. The Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) said that "the supreme jihad is against oneself" (i.e., one's ego, greed, desires, etc).

"Jihad is any earnest striving in the way of G-d, and can include personal, physical, intellectual, as well as military effort, for righteousness and against oppression and wrong-doing". Ziauddin Sardar & Zafar Abbas Malik

This is why moderate Muslims will always say terrorists are going against Islam, because they are not defending the Muslim way of life, rather they are attacking and killing civilians which is forbidden.

Muslims should hire planes to write this in the sky.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

And I am sorry if you felt it was particularly directed against you... for it certainly was not. I read the whole thread before posting and was commenting on the thread as a whole.

I didnt think it was directed at me TE, I justed wanted to accept responsibility for my own aggressive post.

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

I am aware of this and it is a conributory factor to my own veiws on the practice of Islam.

It get on my nerves too but it is a requirement so I follow.

Salaam