The real cause of Islamic terrorism - the yogic perspective

[Pathless]

No, I am not saying that. I am saying that in the current world, in current world events, the rash of terrorism that is being blamed on "Islamic terrorists" is very much related to American foreign policy and acts of terrorism linked to the United States Government.

[niranjan]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Well, the Baha'is for one would disagree with your hypothesis that violence in Islam is rooted in the Quran because Baha'is fully uphold the Quran as a divine revelation from God and consider Muhammad a manifestation of God.

Believe nothing, merely because you have been told it, or because it is traditional or because you yourselves have imagined it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for your teacher. But whatever after due consideration and analysis you find to be conducive to the good , the benefit, the welfare of all beings, that doctrine , believe and cling to and take it as your guide.
- Buddha

The Bahais hold Buddha to be a prophet as well , and a manifestation of God. And hence considering Buddhas above quote, emphasizing a questioning mind and a rational and logical mind, I think we should let facts speak for themselves, and not believe in anything blindly , including the dogma that the quran is a divine revelation from God.





Now lets enter into a discussion about atrocities on the bahais by Islamic terrorists.

The Bab is the first prophet of the Bahai religion. Here's what wikipedia has to say about him.......

In 1844 Siyyid `Alí-Muhammad of Shiraz, Iran proclaimed that he was "the Báb" (Arabic: الباب‎ "the Gate"), after a Shi`a religious concept. His followers were therefore known as Bábís. As the Báb's teachings spread, which the Islamic clergy saw as a threat, Bábís came under increased persecution, at times being forced to choose between renouncing their beliefs or being killed. Several military confrontations took place between government and Bábí forces. The Báb himself was imprisoned and eventually executed in 1850.



Friedrich W. Affolter writes: “Initially, the mullas hoped to stop the Bábí movement from spreading by denouncing its followers as apostates and enemies of God. These denouncements resulted in mob attacks, public executions and torture of early Bábís. When the Bábís (in accordance with Koranic principles) organized to defend themselves, the government sent troops into a series of engagements that resulted in heavy losses on both sides. The Báb himself was imprisoned from 1846 until 1850 and eventually publicly executed. In August 1852, two deranged Bábís attempted to kill the Shah in revenge for the execution of the Báb. This resulted in an extensive pogrom during which more than 20,000 Bábís – among them 400 Shí‘i mullas who had embraced the Bábí teachings – lost their lives.



As the result of the Báb's execution in 1850 by a firing squad in Tabriz, an assassination attempt was instigated on the King of Persia, Nasser-al-Din Shah, two years later by a handful of angry Bábís. Although the assassins claimed they were working alone, the entire Bábí community was blamed, and a slaughter of several thousand Bábís followed. Many of the Bábís who were not killed, including Bahá'u'lláh, were imprisoned in the Síyáh-Chál (Black Pit), an underground dungeon of Tehran. Bahá'u'lláh himself was found to be innocent of complicity in the assassination plot, but remained in the Síyáh-Chál over four months.
An Austrian officer, Captain von Goumoens, working in the court of the Shah at the time, gave the following account after signing his resignation:
"[I saw] ones who, with gouged-out eyes, must eat, on the scene of the deed, their own amputated ears; or whose teeth are torn out with inhuman violence by the hand of the executioner; or whose bare skulls are simply crushed by blows from a hammer..." "As for the end itself, they hang the scorched and perforated bodies by their hands and feet to a tree head downwards, and now every Persian may try his marksmanship to his heart’s content... When I read over again, what I have written, I am overcome by the thought that those who are with you in our dearly beloved Austria may doubt the full truth of the picture, and accuse me of exaggeration. Would to God that I had not lived to see it!... At present I never leave my house, in order not to meet with fresh scenes of horror... I will no longer maintain my connection with the scene of such crimes.”








Early 20th century and the Pahlavi Dynasty
Starting in the twentieth century, in addition to repression that impacted individual Bahá'ís, centrally-directed campaigns that targeted the entire Bahá'í community and institutions were initiated. Some of these persecutions were recorded by missionaries who were in the areas at the time of the massacres. In one case in Yazd in 1903 more than 100 Bahá'ís were killed. Later on Bahá'í schools, such as the Tarbiyat boys' and girl's schools in Tehran, were closed in the 1930s and '40s, Bahá'í marriages were not recognized and Bahá'í literature was censored.

During the reign of Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, due to the growing nationalism and the economic difficulties in the country, the Shah gave up control over certain religious affairs to the clergy of the country. Among other things, the power sharing resulted in a campaign of persecution against the Bahá'ís.Akhavi has suggested that it is likely that the government had hoped that by orchestrating a movement against the Bahá'ís it could serve to obscure the fact that revenues obtained by the distribution of oil from western oil companies was going to be too low for the growing nationalistic sentiment; it would also serve to gain the support of the clergy for their foreign policy.The approved and coordinated the anti-Bahá'í campaign to incite public passion against the Bahá'ís started in 1955 and included the spreading of anti-Bahá'í propaganda in national radio stations and official newspapers.
During the the month of Ramadan in 1955, Sheikh Mohammad Taqi Falsafi, a populist preacher, started one of the highest-profile anti-Bahá'í propaganda schemes. After receiving permission from the Shah to state anti-Bahá'í rhetoric in his sermons, he encouraged other clergy to discuss the Bahá'í issue in their sermons.These sermons caused mob violence against Bahá'ís; Bahá'í properties were destroyed, Bahá'í centres were looted, Bahá'í cemeteries desecrated, Bahá'ís were killed, some hacked to pieces, Bahá'í women were abducted and forced to marry Muslims, and Bahá'ís were expelled and dismissed from schools and employment.




Bahá'ís continue to be persecuted in Islamic countries, especially Iran, where over 200 believers were executed between 1978 and 1998.

Administrative Council of Egypt, on December 16 2006 , ruled the government may not recognize the Bahá'í Faith in official identification numbers. Consequently, Egyptian Bahá'ís are unable to obtain government documents, including ID cards, birth, death, marriage or divorce certificates, or passports, all of which require a person's religion to be listed. They also cannot be employed, educated, treated in hospitals or vote, among other things. The Egyptian Initiative for Private Rights stated that the press release issued by the Chief Judge of the Supreme Court did not respond to any of the evidence or arguments presented by the EIPR in the case, and that the release only discussed the tenets and beliefs of the Bahá'í Faith, which should have not have affected the court's decision.
Since the Islamic Revolution of 1979, Iranian Bahá'ís have regularly had their homes ransacked or been banned from attending university or holding government jobs, and several hundred have received prison sentences for their religious beliefs, most recently for participating in study circles. Bahá'í cemeteries have been desecrated and property seized and occasionally demolished, including the House of Mírzá Buzurg, Bahá'u'lláh's father. The House of the Báb in Shiraz has been destroyed twice, and is one of three sites to which Bahá'ís perform pilgrimage.
Even more recently the situation of Bahá'ís has worsened; the United Nations Commission on Human Rights revealed an October 2005 confidential letter from Command Headquarters of the Armed Forces of Iran to identy Bahá'ís and to monitor their activities and in November 2005 the stat-run and influential Kayhan newspaper, whose managing editor is appointed by Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Khamenei, ran nearly three dozen articles defaming the Bahá'í Faith.
Due to these actions, the Special Rapporteur of the United Nations Commission on Human Rights stated on March 20, 2006 that she "also expresses concern that the information gained as a result of such monitoring will be used as a basis for the increased persecution of, and discrimination against, members of the Bahá'í faith, in violation of international standards. ... The Special Rapporteur is concerned that this latest development indicates that the situation with regard to religious minorities in Iran is, in fact, deteriorating."



Bernard Lewis states that the Muslim laity and Islamic authorities have always had great difficulty in accommodating post-Islamic monotheistic religions such as the Bahá'í Faith, since on one hand the followers of such religions cannot be dismissed either as benighted heathens, like the polytheists of Asia and the animists of Africa, nor as outdated precursors, like the Jews and Christians. Moreover, their very existence presents a challenge to the Islamic doctrine of the perfection and finality of Muhammad's revelation.



Statements by some Iranian writers and academics



The real truth is though that no one gives a damn what happens to Bahá'ís.”

—Iqbal Latif, The Iranian August 5, 2002

I'm just fascinated by the fact that we -- nearly every non-Bahá'í Iranian -- do not really consider Bahá'ís as Iranian. We consider them bastard children of British colonialism aiming to destroy Islam, specifically Shi'ite Islam. They're not even 'other' Iranians. We see them as something else. Or maybe we don't see them at all.”

—Jahanshah Javid, The Iranian July 3, 2002

Go ahead. Go and shed a tear for Palestinians. They deserve it. Israel is crushing them like ants. But when you get a chance, do give a **** about Bahá'ís too. You want a noble cause? You want to scream and shout about injustice? I'm telling you... Bahá'ís have been really underrated as far as causes go.”

—Jahanshah Javid, The Iranian July 3, 2002

[lunamoth]

I know very well that Baha'is have been and are now being severely persecuted in Iran and other Muslim countries.

I was just pointing out that Baha'is are not going to agree with your explanation for the violence. And I would add that it's not exactly a very friendly approach to come to an interfaith discussion board and claim that the Prophet Muhammad was uninspired.

[Postmaster]

No, I am not saying that. I am saying that in the current world, in current world events, the rash of terrorism that is being blamed on "Islamic terrorists" is very much related to American foreign policy and acts of terrorism linked to the United States Government.

I would say that American foreign policy is not an exclusive cause. Shia and Sunny fight amongst themselves. How do you explain going round in death squads torturing people, killing them and throwing them in mass graves. Sorry this is inexcusable.

[niranjan]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I was just pointing out that Baha'is are not going to agree with your explanation for the violence..

As I have stated in my previous post, the Bahais, whether they like it or not, are duty bound not to accept anything blindly, due to the teahing of their prophet Buddha, who clearly exhorts one not to believe in anything blindly , and to have a logical and rational frame of mind.



Also I am not a Bahai, and I really don't care whether they agree with me or not. However as a human being , I believe I have the right to point out the atrocities committed by Islamic fanatics on the Bahais in the form of murder, gross physical torture, mutilation, denial of human rights and humiliation .

Originally Posted by lunamoth

And I would add that it's not exactly a very friendly approach to come to an interfaith discussion board and claim that the Prophet Muhammad was uninspired.

Well, if you read my initial posts, you can see that Vivekananda has said that Muhammad was inspired , but his inspiration was stumbled upon . Vivekananda himself says that upon reading the quran you can find great truths along with superstitions , and explains the reason for this . Please read my first post again.

Also I am in this Comparative Studies forum not to be strictly friendly (though I have always been polite), but to state the facts, and discuss matters in a logical and rational fashion.

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

I would say that American foreign policy is not an exclusive cause. Shia and Sunny fight amongst themselves. How do you explain going round in death squads torturing people, killing them and throwing them in mass graves. Sorry this is inexcusable.

Hmmm. How much do we really know about these "death squads?" I'd be interested in hearing/seeing any information you have on them. What are they? Who are they? How do we hear about them? Through our American media?

Saddam Hussein was a power puppet of Western interests in the Middle East. He began as a CIA agent. After the first Gulf War, the United States encouraged the Shia to rise against Saddam and then abandoned them. 10,00 Shia were massacred by Saddam.

Who is responsible? Where does the verdict of "inexcusable" really fall?

--Pathless

[bananabrain]

oh, come *on*, pathless. you're not seriously suggesting that the murderous infighting between sunni and shi'a is a put-up job by the americans, are you? if they were that sophisticated, do you not think they'd have managed to do something a bit simpler like, say, run iraq in the first place, or plant evidence for WMDs? i mean, are they incompetent, or are they wily, resourceful, masters of intrigue? can't have it both ways.

i mean, look at this thread here on CR for an example of the very real hatred:

Sunni vs Shi'a

i should also add, with my moderator hat on (well, it's a turban really) that this thread is very, very close to the line, if not actually over it. the key offender here is niranjan, who i advise to moderate his language and positions somewhat if he is to last longer than a week without getting banned for inflammatory posting - to say nothing of cut-and-paste triumphalist polemics.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Postmaster]

even Al jezera reports on this issue.

[niranjan]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

the key offender here is niranjan, who i advise to moderate his language and positions somewhat if he is to last longer than a week without getting banned for inflammatory posting - to say nothing of cut-and-paste triumphalist polemics.

I apologize profusely if I have crossed the limits in any way, though I must say I have only presented facts from reliable sources .

However I will definetely consider what you say.

Thanking you,

Niranjan.

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

oh, come *on*, pathless. you're not seriously suggesting that the murderous infighting between sunni and shi'a is a put-up job by the americans, are you? if they were that sophisticated, do you not think they'd have managed to do something a bit simpler like, say, run iraq in the first place, or plant evidence for WMDs? i mean, are they incompetent, or are they wily, resourceful, masters of intrigue? can't have it both ways.

Ah, bananabrain. A put-up job? I don't know about that. I do know that the administration perpetuating the current war in Iraq does not give a damn about the Iraqi people, whether they be Shia, Sunni, or Kurd. The hatred between the different factions could actually serve a political end for a colonizing force. Some call it auto-genocide. When the locals are okay with killing themselves in gang warfare, you don't have to bring in such a big force of your own to do the job.

I may think that the Dubya administration is willfully ignorant, but I'm not sure I believe these militarized corporate gangsters are flat-out stupid. Perhaps they are actually wickedly intelligent masters of manipulation. After all, they've kept the citizens of their own country in their dark pocket for a good while now, entertaining them with patriot games and selling them false myths of superiority. And as long as that remains, they are empowered to do what they will with their military and economic might, while the sedated, brainswashed masses sit on their couches and look down their noses at the barbaric violence and self-destruction of the people of Iraq.

It's a civil war there, I think, more than a bunch of religious zealots massacring each other.

Anyhow, I'm straying off topic again.

[niranjan]

Through this thread , I am only stating the damage caused by certain verses in the quran which violate modern morality.

And I believe that these verses , considering the destruction they have caused around the world for centuries, should be eradicated, or at least moderate Islamic scholars should proactively educate their community by pointing out the havoc and carnage caused by these verses since the birth of Islam.
In this way , we can definetely eradicate Islamic terrorism and their consequent bloodshed and suffering , through out the world.

I believe this is the logical and pragmatic solution to this problem.

Peace to all,

Niranjan.

[Postmaster]

Well, as much as I'am a passivist I don't rule out that force can be used for a good cause although I hope that force can not be justified on any level, but its not for me to judge. niranjan, the patron saint of France was a female Christian military genius who indulged in warfare and claims to have been chosen by God to do so, what do you think about that? For me it is quite contrary to what I've grown up to understand about Christianity, I have a story of 2 Christian priests and 1 12 year old girl who would not submit to the invading Ottoman army and preferred being tortured to death. 500 years later, a whole village in Greece on the island of Lesvos where that took place, the villagers would dream of them on Monday night and Tuesday morning so much so that it got the response of a journalist sceptic who went to investigate and found there reminds and archaeological evidence. They built a church in there name and they have been miraculously curing people of illness.

[Dor]

Pathless where are you at? I mean where do you live?
Heck your hatred toward America, Im sure you either enjoy living in America or some country we have either saved their ass or paid their way.

[niranjan]

Originally Posted by Postmaster;98210niranjan, the patron saint of [/COLOR

France was a female Christian military genius who indulged in warfare and claims to have been chosen by God to do so, what do you think about that?

Yeah , I have read about Joan of Arc, and I was always fascinated by her.

I believe the condemnation of her by the Church as a heretic or witch,and the subsequent burning of this noble and brave young woman in the stake, is one of the greatest crimes committed by them.



<<<<<<<For me it is quite contrary to what I've grown up to understand about Christianity, I have a story of 2 Christian priests and 1 12 year old girl who would not submit to the invading Ottoman army and preferred being tortured to death. 500 years later, a whole village in Greece on the island of Lesvos where that took place, the villagers would dream of them on Monday night and Tuesday morning so much so that it got the response of a journalist sceptic who went to investigate and found there reminds and archaeological evidence. They built a church in there name and they have been miraculously curing people of illness.
[/color][/color][/quote]>>>>>>>>

Well, according to yogic science, intense faith, releases the dormant energies (prana) in the body, and this results in healing. I believe this must be the reason for the miraculous curing of people.

I don't have much info on the rest, so I cannot comment on it.

[Postmaster]

Could it be a possibility that the preaching of force was bought to the Arabs from God through Mohammed? You seem to have no problem with Joan of arc. I'm not saying it is, but im not saying its not. When i see the nature of the violence used and preached I would sway towards it being a serious theological error which can not contribute at all to anything florishing.