The Rapture

[InChristAlways]

Post #35] FaithfulservantGod Hath Not Appointed Us to Wrath
In 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Paul assures us that God has not appointed His people to wrath.

FaithfulServant, you hit the nail on the head. Not just one nail, but pretty much sealed the casket on this one. It was a blessing to see how you put it all together and very nicely done.
May the Lord bless and keep you until the day of his appearing.

Like I am so sure the bride goes through the WRATH of God just before she gets married to Jesus.

"The voice of the bride and of the bridegroom will be heard no more."

Paul did say we are not appointed to Wrath and the greek word used for that is found 5 times in revelation.

But there is also another way to avoid wrath besides being "saved" out it of by "fleeing", and that is "Death".

According to this passage, those who die in the Name of the Lord are blessed. Another words, we don't fear Death in the Name of the Lord and we do not "Avenge". At least that is what I gather from reading this. Any views on this?
Steve

Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, And the Day of Vengeance of our God;

orge (Strong's 3709) occurs 36 times in 34 verses: Page 2, verses 26 - 34

Romans 12:19 not avenging yourselves, beloved, but give place to the Wrath, for it hath been written, `Vengeance [is] Mine, I will recompense again, saith the Lord;' if, then, thine enemy doth hunger, feed him; if he doth thirst, give him drink; for this doing, coals of fire thou shalt heap upon his head;

Revelation 14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write: 'Blessed [are] the dead who die in the Lord from now on.' " "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them."

Revelation 6:11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both [the number of] their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they [were,] was completed.

The Wrath:

1 Thessalonians 2:16 forbidding us to speak to the nations that they might be saved, to fill up their sins always, but the Wrath did come upon them--to the end!

Reve 6:16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the Wrath of the Lamb! 17 "For the Great Day of His Wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

Reve 9:6 In those days men will seek the death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and the death will flee from them.

[timyone]

im australian protestant, but im pretty sure most of my church beleive in the rapture, even thow i havent put much thought into it besides that theres some references to it in the gospels and revelation

[mee]

Before any faithful members of spiritual Israel could receive a heavenly reward, they would have to share a certain experience. Just as Jesus’ death on the torture stake preceded his resurrection to life in the heavens, so Christians with the heavenly hope must die before receiving their reward. (1 Corinthians 15:35, 36) That would be true of members of spiritual Israel living in the first century C.E. and of such individuals alive today.

After mentioning "the presence of the Lord," Paul pointed to the time when faithful spiritual Israelites who had died would receive their heavenly reward. He wrote: "The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first." (Verse 16) Therefore, once Jesus’ presence as King began, we would expect the heavenly resurrection to start, commencing with those of spiritual Israel who had already died as integrity keepers. (1 Corinthians 15:23) Jesus was made king in 1914 in the heavenly kingdom goverment ,his presence as king is here now. and They now serve alongside Jesus in heaven. But what of the comparatively few anointed Christians still living on the earth? Do they await the rapture?

"Caught

Away"—How?

After referring to anointed Christians who had died, Paul added: "Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with the Lord." (Verse 17) "The living" would be those alive during Christ’s presence. They would be "caught away" to meet the Lord Jesus. As in the case of faithful early Christians, death as a human is necessary for them to be united with Christ in heaven.—Romans 8:17, 35-39. so most of them are already in heaven with Jesus , but the resurrection is invisible and it has been going on since just after 1914 when Jesus was invisibly present as king

[Rev Wayne]

I see from the dates that I have arrived upon this thread a little bit late in the discussion to expect dialogue with all who were posting a few months ago, but not too late to provide a bit of input about the origins of this doctrine.

Q.: Why do you suppose no material seems to be available about the doctrine of the rapture before the 19th century?

A.: Because it wasn’t there!

I was doing a bit of research on that subject some time ago at Southern Wesleyan University library, which has some fairly old books in its collection, so I was tracking down some of the older sources to check for differences in the way they treat the doctrine, and to my surprise, they treated it very little at all, and certainly not in the manner that most of the discussion takes place in our time. In fact, the two oldest sources I found dealing with the Second Advent were dated 1865 and 1879, and neither of them had anything about a rapture.
I consulted a Bible encyclopedia, and the information there pointed me to the name of John Darby as a person considered the originator of the rapture theory. Darby was an Anglican priest who suffered a leg injury, and while recuperating, he had a significant religious experience. Apparently feeling he had received some sort of revelation from the experience, he began having disagreements with others in the Anglican Church, after which he began meeting in cell groups, drawing others with him, and also became increasingly critical of the established church.
A group eventually was formed and broke away from the Anglican Church, and in 1830 they officially founded a group known as the Plymouth Brethren. There was an emphasis within this group on what they referred to as “rediscovered truths.” All the Church Fathers and the leaders of the Reformation were rejected as having been “deceived by man-made doctrines,” and only the Brethren were understood by them to have the “True Word.” They held to a strict literal interpretation of the Bible, resulting in some beliefs that sounded offbeat, to say the least.
One example of problems caused by strict literal interpretation was, Darby concluded from the Psalms (particularly Psalm 22) that at least some of the suffering Jesus endured was for punishment. But Jesus had no need to be punished, so the theory is suspect. Another example is the separation of meaning between two similar biblical phrases, “Kingdom of God” and “Kingdom of Heaven.” Darby viewed the Kingdom of Heaven as a reference to the Davidic Kingdom, and the Kingdom of God as a universal, world-wide Kingdom. As I will show a bit later, that separation in meaning between the two is a false distinction. Yet another example of Darby’s thinking is his view that the church is not seen as a fulfillment of God’s covenant, but rather as a “parenthesis,” a period of God’s dealing with the Gentiles between God’s “actual” two-fold plan of dealing with the nation of Israel.
The rapture developed out of this separation of Israel and the church. In places where the church created a problem in his interpretation, he simply had the church “raptured out.” This was particularly true in Revelation where, because the word “church” does not appear anywhere from chapter 3 to the last chapter, he concludes a rapture occurred. Some of his followers even developed the idea of a “secret rapture,” which would occur without anyone left on earth knowing that it had happened—rather strange when you consider how many people would suddenly be missing.
Darby brought his teaching to the U.S. during the Civil War and Reconstruction—a situation in which people were ripe for a message of God’s judgment. Darby wanted to form a new group in the U.S., but the strange occurrence was that people accepted the teaching but remained in their own denominations. His early followers in the U.S. owned a publishing house, so he acquired the power of the printed word, so that his teaching spread rapidly, and an interest in the Second Advent rose accordingly. James H. Brookes, a Presbyterian minister, started the Niagara Bible Conferences, which ran from 1875-97, providing another format for Darby’s teachings to take root.
In Darby’s system, the emphasis placed on “rightly dividing the word of truth led to a “discovery” of “dispensations.” Dispensational teaching holds that there have been seven different ages or “dispensations” in the dealings of God with humankind. They are: the dispensation of (1) innocence, (2) conscience, (3) human government, (4) promise, (5) law, (6) grace, and (7) kingdom. In 1909, Cyrus Scofield published the Scofield Reference Bible. Dispensationalism was made popular by Scofield, who spoke of “four gospels” found in the N.T.: (1) the gospel of grace, (2) the gospel of the Kingdom, (3) the “everlasting gospel,” and (4) what Paul referred to as “my gospel.”

HERE’S HOW HE DESCRIBED IT:

(1) The Gospel of the Kingdom was preached by Jesus and John the Baptist, until it was “interrupted” when the Jews rejected it.
(2) The gospel of grace entered in, the “Church Age” began, and Jesus “changed over” to this gospel and preached it until His death.
(3) Paul began to preach “his” gospel, and this is the one we are also to preach, because it is an “improvement” over the one Jesus taught.
(4) After the Church Age, the “everlasting gospel” will be taught until the millennium comes, then the Jews will preach the Gospel of the Kingdom once more.
Scofield said the Bible is to be interpreted differently according to which of three groups is reading it: Jew, Gentile, or Christian. The Jews will be left on earth as God’s people during the millennium; the Gentiles will go to heaven after the Rapture; the Jews will be saved by repentance, while the Gentiles are saved by faith; and the church functions as a “parenthesis” in God’s plan.
On this idea of the church as a “parenthesis”: It is based on an interpretation of Daniel’s prophecy of the “70 weeks.” Scofield said that 69 of the 70 weeks have passed already, and the “dispensation of grace,” or the “Church Age,” is an interruption until the 70th week, which is interpreted to be the tribulation period. The millennium was supposed to happen at the First Advent, says Scofield, but the Jews rejected it. If it had been accepted, he says, THE CROSS WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN THE MEANS OF SALVATION, and the O.T. SACRIFICES WOULD HAVE BEEN THE MEANS INSTEAD! Scofield had no theological training, he knew no biblical languages, and he wrote his notes on Scripture in between the lines, as though correcting or adding to it.
In 1919, the Philadelphia School of the Bible was founded with Lewis Sperry Chafer on the faculty. Chafer later founded the Evangelical Theological College in 1924. It was renamed Dallas Theological Seminary in 1936, and is now a very well-known school. Guess who came through this educational system and has become a prolific writer with Second Advent emphasis?—Hal Lindsey, author of The Late Great Planet Earth, The 1980’s: Countdown to Armageddon, Apocalypse Code, and several other books with an end-times flavor and emphasis to them.

WELL, WHAT ARE WE TO MAKE OF ALL THIS?

First of all, I would simply point out just how many odd groups have come out of the 19th century interest in the Second Advent. For one, the Millerites, follows of William Miller, who later became the Seventh-Day Adventist Church, who in their early days predicted that Jesus would return in 1844. As I recall, he led a group of people to a place somewhere in Missouri, which was where Jesus was supposed to appear. Many people sold all their possessions and followed him there. Another group were the Russellites, followers of Charles Taze Russell, who later became the Jehovah’s Witnesses, who began from an emphasis on the Kingdom similar to the follolwers of John Darby (but I do not intend to imply there was any connection between the groups). The Darbyites, as they were known, seem to have been simply one more group of separatists, among many, who had some peculiar and offbeat ideas. Their group seems to have had more influence and gained more acceptance than the others for a number of factors:
(1) some wealthy backers joined the movement;
(2) some of those backers just happened to own a printing press and offered it for use;
(3) Darby was well-known as a hard worker, and he worked tirelessly, particularly in getting published materials distributed as widely as he could.

OBJECTIONS I WOULD RAISE IN LIGHT OF WHAT I’VE PRESENTED:

(1) I object to the notion that there is any difference of meaning between the phrases “Kingdom of God” and “Kingdom of heaven.” The idea falls apart when we take into consideration the synoptic nature of the first three gospels and place them side by side to compare the parallel passages in each. It becomes quickly apparent that most of the differences are accounted for by comparing Matthew’s preference of “Kingdom of Heaven” with Luke’s preference for “Kingdom of God.” But even more plainly, it really falls apart when we read Matthew 19:23-24, a context in which Jesus uses both phrases interchangeably in talking about the same thing!
(2) I also object to the idea of the Church as a “parenthesis.” It is extremely hard to maintain such a view when reading Ephesians 1:23 where the church is described as the “fullness of Christ.”
(3) Dispensationalism says the Church is never mentioned in the O.T., and has nothing to do with the O.T. But in Ephesians 5:31-32, Paul clearly views the church as the continuation of God’s relations with His people.
(4) Dispensationalism claims that Israel and the Church are separate and will forever remain so. But Ephesians 2:11-16 clearly declares they are to be one, with the “middle wall of separation” broken down. Also, in comparing the O.T. and the N.T. usage of terms like “chosen,” “elect,” “people of God,” etc., they are used synonymously in describing the people of both Old and New Covenants.
(5) The “70 weeks of Daniel” are problematic in dispensational thinking. The problem is, these 70 weeks are based on a very definite and literal understanding of a “week” as a literal 7-year period of time. Yet on the other hand, when they reach the “69th” week, suddenly the strict literal interpretation becomes an extremely loose one, and the “69th” week becomes stretched out for nearly 2,000 years—and still counting. Then they turn right back around, and make the interpretation a literal one again, and the “70th week” becomes a literal seven-year period known as “The Great Tribulation.”
Most Bible scholars agree that the prophecy of the 70 weeks had to do with the time that would elapse between the time of the prophecy and the “times of the Gentiles,” interpreted by most to be the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

ONE QUESTION THAT COMES TO MIND:

What was the position of the church before the 19th century, since it clearly was not modern-day rapture beliefs?
Well, rather than speaking of a rapture, they simply spoke of the return of Christ. Where the millennium was concerned (1,000-year reign of Christ on earth), they were post-millennial. They knew Christ was to return, and they assumed when it did not happen as soon as they thought, it meant He would return after 1,000 years had passed. After 1,000 years had passed since the First Advent, they remained post-millennial, and assumed it meant that the 1,000 years had not started immediately after Christ’s Ascension as they had originally thought.


WHAT ARE THE THINGS WE CAN KNOW FOR SURE?

(1) Jesus promised, “I will return.”
(2) He said it will come “like a thief in the night,” and we cannot know “the day or the hour.”
(3) Most importantly, He told us: “Therefore, be ready. For at such an hour as you think not, the Son of Man is coming to you.”

[flowperson]

Rev Wayne:

Welcome to CR and thank you for your historical summary of the rapture themes.

My personal opinion is that many "sense" that momentous changes are coming in the not too distant future, and I happen to believe that they are well under way. This "sensing" of impending momentous change seemed to begin to emerge around the time of the US Civil War, as your research also seemed to point out. That is also the time that the widespread use of more modern applications of science and technology began to be spread throughout communities, and especially so in urban centers.

All this is still going on and accelerating IMO. Where it may all end is anybody's guess. But my personal belief is that endings also mean beginnings. But before such "paradigm shifts" can occur, critical mass must be reached to shift the balances in effect. That's what all the "tipping point" comments used these days are getting at. Could be that "rapture" is/was a "code" word used by believers to describe this phenomenon. It's the way that nature operates, and like it or not, we are all still a part of nature.

flow....

[Rev Wayne]

Could be that "rapture" is/was a "code" word used by believers to describe this phenomenon.

I hope I gave no impression that I did not believe in the scriptural idea of the rapture, as certainly laid out for the Thessalonians by Paul. But for nearly 19 centuries it was viewed as synonymous with the return of Christ, rather than the separation that was introduced by Darby. The introduction into the picture of the 70 weeks of Daniel was an innovation of his as well, with the whole idea of "The" Great Tribulation. As I recall Jesus saying, "in the world you shall have tribulation," and we expect it at all times. But He describes a time that is yet to come, when this tribulation will be heightened, and gives them specific warning of what to do when it happens. But there is no definite article in the Greek in which Jesus' words were written, making "the" great tribulation a misstatement. In other words, this whole scenario that so many people have come to believe in these days, of the temple being rebuilt, the sacrifices reinstituted, the rapture, the literal 7-year period where the antichrist takes over, with Jesus returning at the end to banish the chaos just in the nick of time, and establish order, is hyper-literalism at its worst. More than likely, the things Jesus was speaking of, as some have suggested, referred to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. That would accord better with Jesus' words that "some of you standing here shall not taste death" until these things would take place.

Also, if you follow Jesus' words in Matthew 24, you will see that He describes them chronologically--"At that time," "immediately after the distress of those days," etc. A pre-trib rapture would make it an anachronism for Jesus to say in v. 29 that the sun and moon are darkened, stars fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies are shaken, all before He returns in v. 30 and 31. He makes no such distinction as pre-tribbers do, that believers escape from this.

I have found it interesting to see the development of these beliefs over the last several decades. I remember when Late Great Planet Earth first came out and there was a lot of attention paid to it by a lot of people. A decade or so later, when things had not taken place exactly as the book had predicted, Lindsey wrote another, The 1980's: Coundown to Armageddon? The "enemy" in this one was Russia, and they were involved in all the "Gog and Magog" prophecies. But of course, with the fall of the Soviet Union in the late 80's, those predictions went sour as well. Almost immediately, and very conveniently for Mr. Lindsey, there arose a new enemy when the Gulf War began, and suddenly Iraq became the nation who figured into end-times scenarios. After that, Y2K was the rage and suddenly the antichrist became someone who was working through computers. The most common scare was, some number associated with supermarket scanning devices totalled up to 666. The whole thing in Revelation about "not being able to buy or sell" was the popular ticket line for the scare stories.

As Jesus warned us, false Christs will arise. If they say "Here He is" or "There He is," we are not to believe them. The very fact that so many people are pointing to various current events and calling them signals of the end, ought to be the very signs that reveal to us that the signals may be in error. Jesus said He would come "at a time when you think not." It will more likely be a time when no one is really expecting, rather than at a time of religious fervor and anxious watching of the skies.

Yes, I believe Christ is returning, and that return could be at any moment. Dispensational ideas that set such a framework around His return would make all sorts of corollary events necessary before that return could occur, and the most common description would have a wait of seven years from the time antichrist appears. I'm a believer, I just think they got the details wrong.

[Dondi]

While I'm not a dispensationist, I'm under the impression that there are still some unfullfillment in the matter of Israel, somehow, someway. If God has an everlasting covenant with His People in the OT, it stands to reason that He is not finished with them. On passage that hits home, and I'm surprised that there hasn't been any mention of it, is Romans 11:12-16:

"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches."

Paul is speaking about Israel here, as one who fell away so that the Gentiles might receive Christ. But there will be a return, when they will be received again by God:

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." - Romans 11:25-27

God will still honor His covenant with Israel. And that is what Revelation is all about. God will reveal Christ to Israel as the long-awaited Messiah. But that will only happen when the time of the Gentiles is come. The Great Tribulation is for the restoration of Israel and the inauguration of Messiah the King of Kings who will rule the world in peace. And I believe that Christians will be removed for this specific task, for the Glory is God's.

Why else is the nation of Israel restored at the present time, the only ancient peoples who have reformed as a nation in the history of the world? Think about it.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Rev Wayne

The "enemy" in this one was Russia, and they were involved in all the "Gog and Magog" prophecies. But of course, with the fall of the Soviet Union in the late 80's, those predictions went sour as well.

If you think that Russia is through, think again. Why do you think that they oppose any sanctions against Iran's nuclear program? Because Russia has been supply Iran with nuclear materials for their plant:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4301889.stm

These predictions about Russia are far from sour.

I could go more detail that show the shaping of these current events corrlating with that described in the Ezekiel:

"And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,

And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:
Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet: Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee."

Can you guess who modern day Persia is? Here's another article detailing the China-Iran-Russia alliance:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/GF04Ad07.html

Do you think China cannot produce a 200 million man army as in Revelation 9:16:

"And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them."

In John's time, there were only about 150 million in population on the whole earth. This is only talking about one nation.

[Rev Wayne]

These predictions about Russia are far from sour.

Not my point at all. My point was, the 80's did not turn out to be the "countdown to Armageddon." Besides, "Armageddon," if you check your scriptures, does not come until right at the end of the millennial reign, not at a time prior to Jesus returning. My point was, the flip-flop done by the same author from one book to another, naming first Russia, then Iraq, as the central nation figuring into the prophecies. And the overall point was the faulty foundation for the whole scenario on which it is all based, "four gospels" and all.

People adopted this sacred cow as a pet before checking its pedigree.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Rev Wayne

Not my point at all. My point was, the 80's did not turn out to be the "countdown to Armageddon." Besides, "Armageddon," if you check your scriptures, does not come until right at the end of the millennial reign, not at a time prior to Jesus returning. My point was, the flip-flop done by the same author from one book to another, naming first Russia, then Iraq, as the central nation figuring into the prophecies. And the overall point was the faulty foundation for the whole scenario on which it is all based, "four gospels" and all.

People adopted this sacred cow as a pet before checking its pedigree.

So you don't take a very literalist view of end-time events?

[Rev Wayne]

So you don't take a very literalist view of end-time events?

I don't take a dispensationalist view of end-time events. A literal 7-year tribulation is neither literal nor figurative. It is (1) a literal translation of a day as a year, and a week as seven years, for the first 68 weeks of Daniel; (2) a figurative translation of the 69th week as a very fluid, undetermined "Church Age," or "Dispensation of Grace"; (3) and it is then followed by another strictly literal 7-year period, or "week" of "'The' Great Tribulation.

It is characterized in part by a strictly literal rendering of "Kingdom of God" and "Kingdom of heaven" as two different things. This claim is made despite Jesus' own words, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God." (Matthew 19:23-24)

It is further characterized by an opinion that the institution of sacrifice was God's intended plan, and had the Jews been obedient, the plan would not have had to be "interrupted" by the Gospel. And the ushering in of the "Kingdom Age" will once again re-institute sacrifices.

So if this is what is meant by a "literalist view of end-time events," then thanks but no thanks, I'll have to pass on it.

[kenod]

Another interesting approach to the Rapture, is the type Jesus gave in Luke 17:29-30

But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom
it rained fire and brimstone from heaven,
and destroyed them all.
Even thus shall it be
in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Here we see that Lot and those who believed were taken out of that Gentile city before the fire fell. We are all just holding our breath waiting for the (nuclear) fire to fall, and the earth to be melted with fervent heat.

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;
in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,
and the elements shall melt with fervent heat,
the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Rev Wayne

I don't take a dispensationalist view of end-time events. A literal 7-year tribulation is neither literal nor figurative. It is (1) a literal translation of a day as a year, and a week as seven years, for the first 68 weeks of Daniel; (2) a figurative translation of the 69th week as a very fluid, undetermined "Church Age," or "Dispensation of Grace"; (3) and it is then followed by another strictly literal 7-year period, or "week" of "'The' Great Tribulation.

It is characterized in part by a strictly literal rendering of "Kingdom of God" and "Kingdom of heaven" as two different things. This claim is made despite Jesus' own words, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God." (Matthew 19:23-24)

It is further characterized by an opinion that the institution of sacrifice was God's intended plan, and had the Jews been obedient, the plan would not have had to be "interrupted" by the Gospel. And the ushering in of the "Kingdom Age" will once again re-institute sacrifices.

So if this is what is meant by a "literalist view of end-time events," then thanks but no thanks, I'll have to pass on it.

guess that means the Bible is in error concerning Revelation. However, of ALL the books of the Bible, there is only one that states not one word will be added or taken away...so of all the books of the Bible, it seems to me Reverend, that this particular book should be taken to "heart". I don't think God is going to care much for what "we" think things should be, when push comes to shove.

He certainly doesn't express it in the Book of Revelation. In fact, He pretty much says that by that time it is too damn late...

v/r


Q

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by kenod

Another interesting approach to the Rapture, is the type Jesus gave in Luke 17:29-30

But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom
it rained fire and brimstone from heaven,
and destroyed them all.
Even thus shall it be
in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Here we see that Lot and those who believed were taken out of that Gentile city before the fire fell. We are all just holding our breath waiting for the (nuclear) fire to fall, and the earth to be melted with fervent heat.

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;
in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise,
and the elements shall melt with fervent heat,
the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

I'm not sure "WE" is the correct phrase enhancer. You may think so, but I wouldn't put it past the majority in such fashion. You might be surprised.

v/r

Q

[kenod]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I'm not sure "WE" is the correct phrase enhancer. You may think so, but I wouldn't put it past the majority in such fashion. You might be surprised.
Q

pluralis majestaticus, Q