The Rapture

[Basstian]

One more thing lol

How do you interpret the words "keep you from" in this passage? How else would Jesus manage to keep people from the tribulation (I interpet the hour of trial and test he refers to as the tribulation, based on its context in the letters to the churches), other than with a rapture-like event?

Funny those Hebrew boys werent taken from the furnace kept from the harm of the flames. And thru the power of God walked out unharmed. He could have easily "Raptured" them away and brought them back some where safe.

[Faithfulservant]

Hi Basstion

-I never said the word Rapture was in the bible..

Second they use the text one will be take etc etc etc

-2 will be in the fields one will be taken and the other one will be left.. yes.. But did you not also read that we are not to look back? We are not to cling to the world.

-Did not God protect Noah and his family by giving them a safe haven while he destroyed the world? Did God not save Lot and his wife when he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? Didnt Lots wife look back? Do you think God would destroy this world with his faithful still in it? I dont think so.

-That still doesnt answer how the church isnt mentioned after a certain point where up to that point it was the main topic of Revelation. And why would he say the 12 tribes of Judah were to remain during the millenium rather than the church? I have no Jewish ancestry and I am sealed of God. Or do you think that we are all considered Judah? I know that some churches say that.. but honestly if you look at the OT its Gods dealings with Israel.. and the end of Revelation is his final dealings with Israel.


The Bible says the wicked will never inherit the earth. My comments in Bold below from the book of Matthew

-They dont inherit the earth.. if you read the book of Revelation it says that they get thrown in the pit with satan. Satan will remerge after the thousand years and battle one last time before he is beaten for good.

37: But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38: For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39: And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away;(So the ones taken were the Bad guys Noah was refered to as Left) so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

- Yes the wicked were left to perish with the earth.. He created a safe haven for the righteous.

41: Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42: Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43: But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

-If Jesus is the thief who do you think the goodman of the house is?

44: Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45: Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46: Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47: Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

-You think that He is saying that hes going to bless us with worldly goods?? We are storing up riches in heaven not on earth.

48: But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49: And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50: The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

-Stay diligent and always be prepared for his coming..

A wise paster once saw a bumper sticker saying " In Case of Rapture This Vehicle Will Be Unmanned" He said He hoped they left an open title in the glove box and the Keys in the ignition

-I dont understand how thats wisdom... went right over my head.

When Jesus talks about seperating wheat from taors are not the tares always cast out

-yep.. like the wicked will be cast into the pit.

His second coming says every eye shall see him and yes the dead in christ will rise but his Kingdom you will have to find me scripture that says He is taking me for a ride anywhere.

-ok I will.. I only ask that you pray for discernment on this subject after I take all this time to write it out.

And dont say Rapture cause its not in the Bible.

-LOL have I yet caused you to doubt my understanding of the bible? Do you think I would say that words in the bible without knowing its there or not? Give me some credit bass.

-The word “rapture” comes from Paul's "caught up" remark. The words “caught up” are translated from the Greek word harpazo, which means "to carry off," "snatch up," or "grasp hastily." The translation from harpazo to “rapture” involved two steps: first, harpazo became the Latin word raptus; second, raptus became the English word “rapture.”

Will go into detail on the second post... I dont want to run out of room

[Faithfulservant]

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." (1 Thess, 4:16-18).
“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality” (1 Cor. 15:51-53).

The Unknown Hour
When we search the Scriptures and read the passages describing the Lord Jesus' return, we find verses that tell us we won't know the day and hour of that event. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 indicates that the Jews will have to wait on the Lord 1,260 days, starting when the Antichrist stands in the Temple of God and declares himself to be God (2 Thes 2:4). This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven-year tribulation (Dan 9:27). Note that some people only see a three-and-a-half-year tribulation. In a way, they are correct because the first half of the tribulation will be relatively peaceful compared to the second half. Nonetheless, peaceful or not, there still remains a seven-year period called the tribulation. When the Jews flee into the wilderness, they know that all they have to do is wait out those 1,260 days (Mat 24:16). There is no way to apply the phrase "neither the day nor the hour" to this situation. The only way for these two viewpoints to be true is to separate the two distinct events transpiring here: 1) the rapture of the Church, which comes before the tribulation; and 2) the return of Jesus to the earth, which takes place roughly seven years later.

The Marriage Supper of the Lamb
In Luke 12:36, the Word states that when Christ returns, He will be returning from a wedding. In Revelation 19:7-8, we read about the marriage itself. The marriage supper takes place before the marriage. According to Jewish custom, the marriage contract, which often includes a dowry, is drawn up first. The contract parallels the act of faith we use when we trust Jesus to be our Savior. The dowry is His life, which was used to purchase us. When it’s time for the wedding, the groom goes to the bride's house unannounced. She comes out to meet him, and then he takes her to his father's house. This precisely correlates with the events according to the pre-trib scenario. Jesus, the Groom, comes down from heaven and calls up the Church, His Bride. After meeting in the air, He and His Bride return to His Father's house, heaven. The marriage supper itself will take place there, while down here on earth the final events of the tribulation will be playing out. After the marriage supper of Jewish tradition, the bride and groom are presented to the world as man and wife. This corresponds to the time when Jesus returns to earth accompanied by an army "clothed in fine linen, white and clean" (Rev 19:14).

The People of the Millennium
If Christ were to come back after the tribulation, rapture all the saints, and slay all the ungodly, who would be left to populate the earth during the millennium? Only the pre-trib viewpoint can account for this post-trib problem. The Church is raptured before the tribulation, a vast number of souls are saved during this seven-year time frame, and those who make it through the tribulation go into the millennium while the unsaved are cast into hell. The

Saint U-Turn
In the pre-trib scenario, after we rise to meet the Lord in the air, we will go to heaven and abide there seven years. At the end of that period, Christ will come down to earth, defeat the Antichrist, and cleanse the temple. In a post-trib rapture, we would rise in the air to meet the Lord, then do a 180-degree U-turn and come back down to earth. Revelation 1:7 states that Christ will appear out of the clouds and come down to earth. Zechariah 14:4 says that His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives. If He's already headed our way, why would we need to be caught up to meet Him

"Come Up Hither"
Many pre-trib writers cite Revelation 4:1, which says, "come up hither," as a prophetic reference to the rapture of the Church, leaving Revelation chapters 1 through 3 as a description of the Church Age. After the shout to "come up hither," the Church is not mentioned in Scripture at all. The attention of Scripture switches from the Church to the Jews living in Israel.

Armies in Fine Linen
When Jesus returns (Rev. 19:18), an army follows Him. The army’s members are riding on white horses, and they are clothed in fine linen that is white and clean. In Revelation 19:8, we are told that the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. If the saints of God are returning with Christ to wage war on the Antichrist, then it is not possible to have a post-trib rapture without us running into ourselves as we are coming and going.

The Time of Jacob's Trouble
In several passages, the Bible refers to the tribulation as a time of trouble for the Jews. The phrase "Jacob's trouble" pertains to the descendants of Jacob. Jeremiah 30:7 says that this time of trouble will come just before the Lord returns to save His people. The final week of Daniel's 70th week is yet to take place. An angel told Daniel that, "70 weeks are determined unto thy people" (Dan 9:24). Scripture never mentions that the tribulation is meant to be a time of testing for Christians. However, some post-tribbers try to claim that they are the ones being tested during the tribulation. To make this so, they need to spiritualize the 144,000 Jewish believers in Revelation 7:2-8 who receive God's protective seal. Placing the Church dispensation into the same time frame as the seven-year Jewish dispensation, as the post-tribbers do, raises one good question: Can two dispensations transpire at the same time? In the past, God has only dealt with one at a time. Having both present during the tribulation would have to be an exception

”He” That is Taken Out of the Way
Before the Antichrist can be revealed, Paul said a certain "He" must be taken out of the way. According to 2 Thessalonians 2:7, the "He" that must be removed is widely thought to be the Holy Spirit. It has been promised that the Holy Spirit would never leave the Church, and without the working of the Holy Spirit remaining on earth, no one could be saved during the tribulation. The removal of the Church, which is indwelt by the Holy Ghost, would seem the best explanation for this dilemma. The working of the Holy Spirit could go on during the tribulation, but His influence would be diminished because of the missing Church.

War or Rapture
(Rev 19:19-21) When Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation, He will be coming for battle. For those who believe in a post-trib rapture, it would be strange to meet your Lord and Savior just as He's rushing into battle. The idea that war and rapture could occur together is difficult to imagine, especially since they transpire at the same moment

The Five Foolish Virgins
The wedding story that Jesus gave in Matthew 25:2-13, I believe, is a parable of the rapture of the Church. It explains how some will not be ready. Jesus clearly states that a group of people will miss out on an event, and will cry out to God to let them into the place where He resides, heaven. Although some try to put this parable in a post-trib context, it doesn't fit very well. The ones left behind in a post-trib rapture will not need to seek the Lord because they'll immediately be confronted by Him and His army of angels

More to come

[Faithfulservant]

God Hath Not Appointed Us to Wrath
In 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Paul assures us that God has not appointed His people to wrath. This wrath is plainly God's anger that will be poured out during the tribulation. Pre-trib believers interpret this as meaning that Christians will be removed from the earth. Post-trib believers tell a different story. They describe this as meaning that God will protect Christians during the tribulation and pour this wrath out on the unbelievers only. This idea runs against the statement made in Revelation 13:7, in which the Antichrist is given power to make war with the saints and to overcome them. A post-trib view would make God's promise of protection from wrath into a lie. In years past, it was possible to think of being protected from the guns and swords of that day. Today, when any major war would involve nuclear and chemical weapons, it's impossible to expect that same kind of protection. When Nagasaki, Japan was bombed during World War II, the bomb exploded over a Catholic church. Everyone who was in the center of the explosion died--both Christians and non-Christians. The only way to validly interpret God's promise of protection from wrath is by viewing 1 Thessalonians 5:9 as the bodily removal of the Church from this world.

The Salt of the Earth
Jesus said, "Ye are the salt of the earth" (Matthew 5:13). When the believers are suddenly removed, the earth will be plunged into spiritual darkness. When this happens, the Antichrist will then be free to control the world.

God Takes an Inventory
In Revelation 7:3, an angel descends to earth and seals the servants of God. Two bits of information about this sealing highly disclaim a post-trib viewpoint. The first item is the number of people sealed: 144,000. The second one is that all those who are sealed are from the 12 tribes of Israel. For the events in Revelation 7:3-8 to be true in a post-trib interpretation, either the Church has turned against God or God has turned against the Church. A post-tribber could write a thousand-word commentary about why the Church doesn't need to be sealed. Instead of trying to argue about why the Church is not mentioned or sealed, a pre-trib proponent could just say, "We're already in heaven."

Noah and Lot as Examples
The tribulation period is compared to the times of Noah and Lot by Jesus in Luke 17:28. Most people argue over whether the time frame Jesus was talking about in that passage was pre-trib or post-trib. In doing so, they miss an important point. The two circumstances that the Noah and Lot situations have in common are the removal of the righteous and the judgment of the unbelievers. From these two accounts, we see that God prefers to remove His own when danger is involved.

The World Test
One way to check the soundness of a doctrine is to see how the world reacts to it. One company put out a questionnaire that was used to screen prospective employees. One of the questions was, "Do you believe in the rapture?" If you answered “yes,” your chances of getting hired would not be good. Some internet sites do not allow the topics of Rapture or Second Coming. They do allow topics such as sex, gays, and drugs. The only time the news media mentions the rapture is when someone sets a date and is proven to be wrong

The Church Would Rebuke the Antichrist
If the Antichrist came to power with the Church still here, I do not see how he could operate. When Hitler was fighting to take over England, a number of Christians were praying for victory. Hitler made mistake after mistake, and England outperformed its enemy at every stage of the conflict. It is difficult to measure the impact of intercessory prayer in physical warfare. Little is known of how great a role praying saints played in the defeat of Nazi Germany. If the Church were to reside on earth during the tribulation, I am sure she would give the Antichrist fits. In Revelation 11:3, the two witnesses alone give the Antichrist enough headaches. Millions of Christians who know their Bibles well would recognize the man of sin and pray fire down on his head. The post-trib view would have to plan on the Church just rolling over and playing dead the whole seven years.

Antichrist not revealed until hindering force removed

In 2 Thessalonians we are told that the "man of sin (or lawlessness)" will not be revealed until "He who now restrains" is taken out of the way.

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him, that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.


Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?

And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he may be revealed.

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. And then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; (II Thessalonians 2:1-8)

In John 16:7-8 we are told that it is The Holy Spirit who will "convict the world concerning sin..." God The Holy Spirit can never be removed from the earth, but, in the sense that He is effectively restraining sin through Christians in whom He dwells, the time will come, once those Christians are gone, that wickedness will abound. Today Christians are everywhere: in their occupations, in the market place, in the schools, even in government halls. But during the Tribulation, true believers will be persecuted and either killed or driven underground, so that their godly influence will not be felt in the world. When the church is taken in the Rapture, the world will be ripe for Antichrist to step forth with his ungodly plans. True, multitudes of people will turn to Christ and will become true believers in the tribulation period. They will also be indwelt by the Holy Spirit, but they will not be permitted to take the place of the missing Christians in society. They will be outcasts, and therefore the Holy Spirit will not have the same restraining influence on the world that He now has. Most, or even all of them, will be quickly put to death by the man of sin.


1The Rapture 2The 2nd Coming
1 Christ comes for His own 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
2Christ return with His ownRevelation 19:14

1Believers taken to Father's House John 14:3
2Believers come to EarthMatthew 24:30

1Seen only by believers1 Corinthians 15:52 Revelation 1:7; 19:11-16;
2Every eye will see HimMatthew 24:30

1No reference to Satan
2Satan bound Revelation 20:1-3

1Earth not judged
2 Earth judged Revelation 20:4-5

1A Mystery1 Corinthians 15:51
2 Foretold in Old Testament Dan. 12:1-3; Zech. 12:10; 14:4

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

I was reading something the other day that off-handedly referred to the "rapture" as a disinctly US Protestant construct.

My questions are:

1/ What is the Rapture specifically supposed to be, and

2/ Is the Rapture a disinctly US Protestant construct?

Brian, I would say this construct is of no man and no religion, but biblical prophecy of more than two witnesses. Rapture is not the correct word, even though some call it political correct.

FaithfulservantGod Hath Not Appointed Us to Wrath
In 1 Thessalonians 5:9, Paul assures us that God has not appointed His people to wrath.

FaithfulServant, you hit the nail on the head. Not just one nail, but pretty much sealed the casket on this one. It was a blessing to see how you put it all together and very nicely done.
May the Lord bless and keep you until the day of his appearing.

Like I am so sure the bride goes through the WRATH of God just before she gets married to Jesus.

"The voice of the bride and of the bridegroom will be heard no more."

[Basstian]

I Think I am going to leave this one alone lol

I Differ on the belief of the "Rapture" I too could use godd Bible comentary and scripture to prove my point but would be useless for this reason.

I firmly believe that we are allowed error in the prophecy its not Clear for a reason and God designed it that way. For no man Knows the Day or the Hour.

I believe along with several 100,000's of Christians that yes we will Meet Him in the air etc etc etc But find No proof of Going anywhere but Back Down to Riegn here on earth and that we will see the New City prepared for us descending as said.

But if I am wrong it is not a salvation issue.
Its My Faith in Christ that saves me.
Some people treat this issue like if you dont Know exactly you will be standing there like a person at the wrong airport terminal.
Servant you maybe right about this.
But the Truth you Know of Christ is much much Greater and assures me no matter the specifics we will both stand on that day.

P.S Lot of SDA in that Big long post I have sit thru a seminar or two myself

[Faithfulservant]

You know.. You got really defensive Bass.. Im not sure I understand why. I never said it was a salvation issue. Its about comfort and security that we should feel as we are embraced by the Father.. Im not afraid of His wrath because I trust that he will protect me. Im not condemning you for feeling like you feel about it. We both know that God chooses to reveal things as he sees fit and when I was 11 the most spiritual time in my life and the closest I have ever been to him he gave me a craving of bible prophecy and I have had it ever since then. All I asked you to do was ask God for discernment if I was going to answer your questions.. I hope that you do that because it was done in good faith and we both know the Spirit reveals the truth to us not me or any man. Ask HIM these questions and let him answer you when you open your bible. Dont trust a single thing I say until then. I am not arguing with you on doubtful things.. I learned that the last time we got into it about the Sabbath.

Why the low blow on SDA? was it necessary? You know how I feel about that. The only similarity I see on SDA teachings is that Christ returns with an army to do battle.. they teach that the saints have to endure the trib... they teach that sabbath keepers are the sealed of God and the only ones found worthy to inherit.. I could go on but its not necessary. I forgive you for trying to hurt me with that statement.

[Bandit]

you know what gets me is I dont think people realize how severe it will be here on earth during that last three and a half years. God always pulled his people out just before the bullets went flying. They say it is all just figurative.

Why is it that only certain people can see any of this???


The ones who make it through the great trib are those who sat on the fence post today and are given up to prison and beheaded. This is a different group of people. Not the bride.

I still say according to scripture it is pre or mid.
Post does not make sense. we are supposed to be WATCHING and praying and that is how we will know. We are the Jewels that Jesus is coming for. The world will not even know the thief has come until they look for us. it will still be a big joke to them because they will have been so decieved by the man of sin.

Then there is always the view..it is just a myth and laugh at it. But who gets the last laugh? and no one will be laughing.

Keep your eyes on Jesus, that way you can't miss him.

Mark13:6For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

Here is another view.

http://www.fbinstitute.com/McCormick/Tribulation.htm

[TimMurray]

Originally Posted by Basstian

P.S Lot of SDA in that Big long post I have sit thru a seminar or two myself

OK I may me being thick, but what does SDA mean?

[Faithfulservant]

Seventh Day Adventists.. Was founded by a man who predicted the end would be one year in the 1800's when it didnt come about he removed himself from the church.. then it was took over by a man and wife.. the wife is thought to be a great prophetess and their whole doctrine is founded on her writings.. I did some studies on her and she plagarized often and many times contradicted herself.. Her name was Ellen G White. I could go on but Im a bit biased when it comes to SDA.. I had a bad experience with them.

[Basstian]

On the subject of the post

The "Rapture" has many different schools of thought. Many Different denominations have differing views on what will really take place.
We know and are taught to hope in Christs return. We are told point blank that there will be doubters in the last day saying where is this promise.

Servant I came out of the SDA with bad experiences too. I wasnt saying that to try to insult you and am deeply sorry if it did. I have sit thru many of their seminars they used peoples fear and concern for the future. To lure them in and than indoctrinate them with Ellen White and other misrepresentation of bible prophecy teaching it like it is a salvation issue and "you better be a sabbath keeper or you will be following the beast etc etc etc. All of which someone I believe will answer for one day.

I could have Blasted back verses that would make it look as tho anyone saying Rapture was trying to mislead people..... I DIDNT
Instead I said

Servant you maybe right about this.
But the Truth you Know of Christ is much much Greater and assures me no matter the specifics we will both stand on that day.

It was not my intent to offend you in anyway and I hope you accept my appology The comment about the SDA was not intended as a JAB though reading it now I can understand why you thought it was.

To many Hard things complicate a very simple truth. Debate over how where when and why often distracts people from WHO.

Servant I apologize for what reads like an insult it was not my intent.


Bandit this statement

God always pulled his people out just before the bullets went flying. They say it is all just figurative.

I question that. I see protection in times of trouble for the faithful. But not always a pull out.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Thanks Siege and, by proxy, WHKeith for a comprehensive overview.

As a corollary to this - I was wondering whether the 'take up' of rapture theology is a comfort and assurance - as WHKeith states - in the face f the realisation by Americans that 'the American dream' is not quite what they thought it to be.

After WWII America was unassailable - even the Cold War was 'won' in a sense - but then the flow of history has turned, Korea signalled something 'not quite right' and Viet Nam was the first significant military defeat, and since that day America has not prosecuted a war to a clear and unarguable success - in fact quite the opposite.

Internally the failure of financial and social dreams, etc. etc. leads to a turning against the world, which is perceived as hostile, and an escape into one of the more 'fantastic' aspects of Scripture: The Rapture.

This is my concern, because in the absence of the overall moderation of the Christian message, rapture theology on its own - in isolation - can justify 'nuking the rest cos we're the best'.

It's a form of ultra-right wing supremacy, and any form of supremacy philosophy is always frightening.

(Not to stretch the point - but the US funding of the Israeli-managed genocide in Palestine is just one such instance of 'justificiation')

Thomas

I don't think the rapture has anything to do with the United States citizens considering themselves superior to anyone, or a consolation prize because it hasn't "won" a war since 1945. I'm not sure how one could claim that the "American Dream" not what was hoped, nor how that corrolates to "Jesus" taking people to heaven in a flash.

Allegedly, the rapture is based on the belief that those who are living at the return of Christ, and who are faithful to Him, will not have to suffer the 42 months of tribulations that will trouble the earth. Those that are dead but were faithful to Christ in life will be brought out of the grave and given a new body. Those that are living, but not faithful to Christ will have to choose their path during the tribulations. The ones that choose Christ will suffer at the hands of some of those who do not.

This is not limited to nor exclusive to the United States.

As far as "nuking" the rest because we're the best, we could have done that anytime over the past 40 years (realistically), if that was our intent. However, that would not be very Christian like now would it...nor would it be condusive to the ecology at large, let alone the people of earth (from a purely selfish perspective, it would not help Americans if the rest of the world were a wasteland, nor would Jesus be very happy with us, I should think).

You have an interesting take on Americans, Thomas. I would like to see what references you used in your research, on determining this interesting theory.

I'm only asking questions and making inquiries here. And I'd really like to know why you believe as you do...

v/r

Q

[LVnik]

The "pre-tribulation rapture" doctrine that many protestants follow had its beginnings NOT in the orthodox christian tradition, but in the late 19th century by a man named Darby, as he recieved this so called revelation from a 15 year old pentecostal girl by the name of Margaret McDonald, while in a "trance". The doctrine was propigated for some time and was picked up by Scofield who then included the doctrine in his notes of the much used Scoefield reference bible, which is still extensively used by fundamentalist evangelical christians today. To assume that all christians hold this doctrinal belief would be an error. The fact is, most professing christians believe that the events spoken of in the "new testament" will occur simultaneously with the appearance of Messiah, and the end of the present age.
Just a small appendum to help you understand this strange teaching and its origins.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by LVnik

The "pre-tribulation rapture" doctrine that many protestants follow had its beginnings NOT in the orthodox christian tradition, but in the late 19th century by a man named Darby, as he recieved this so called revelation from a 15 year old pentecostal girl by the name of Margaret McDonald, while in a "trance". The doctrine was propigated for some time and was picked up by Scofield who then included the doctrine in his notes of the much used Scoefield reference bible, which is still extensively used by fundamentalist evangelical christians today. To assume that all christians hold this doctrinal belief would be an error. The fact is, most professing christians believe that the events spoken of in the "new testament" will occur simultaneously with the appearance of Messiah, and the end of the present age.
Just a small appendum to help you understand this strange teaching and its origins.

Well, so much for the "Left Behind" series of books.

v/r

Q

[InLove]

Hi, and Peace to All Here,

It looks to me as if the original question has been well addressed.

It also appears to me (that's, to me) that the spin-off issue concerning pre-mid-post tribulation is valid and relevent, and has also been very well addressed. Faithfulservant, I know that was a painstaking process. You actually answered some questions I had, and I wasn't even asking! I would like to submit that in my experience with you, I have never thought of you as a "cut and paste long passages of nonsense" type person. And I can tell that you did not do that this time, either. So I find it odd that your sincere attempts to add something valuable seem to have just been dismissed. We seem to be back to "square one". It's all myth anyway--here are the facts?

I appreciate the research and documentation. And who knows? Maybe a fifteen-year-old Pentecostal girl has just as much claim on the truth as any other prophet or sage. It can't be true because "Orthodox Christianity" says so? Perhaps it really depends on one's understanding of what is "orthodox". I'll have to google the legend to find out, I guess. Maybe I will come out of that experience with lots of new enlightenment.

I realize that I am not being as diplomatic here as I usually try to be, but geez!

To post, or not to post--that is the question....oh, well. Geronimo!

InPeace,
InLove