The Quran - through my eyes.

[seattlegal]

Still lurking.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Still lurking.

Thank you so much, we are only a short way through the Quran so this may be a bit of an endurance test for you.

It would be nice if any lurkers could post a quick hello ever now and again so I know I am not just typing for the sake of it.

[Muslimwoman]

Surah 5 is called al-maeda (meaning the table spread).

As the name suggests this chapter deals with what we are allowed to hunt and eat. It also deals with cleanliness, which is a very big issue in Islam. It tells the story of Cane & Abel but does not call them by name. It also deals with the difference in religions so is a very important chapter to me.

O ye who believe! Be steadfast witnesses for Allah in equity, and let not hatred of any people seduce you that ye deal not justly. Deal justly, that is nearer to your duty. Observe your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is Informed of what ye do. (5:8)

It states deal justly with ANY people, not just Muslims or just people of the Book but everyone.

The Jews and Christians say: We are sons of Allah and His loved ones. Say: Why then doth He chastise you for your sins? Nay, ye are but mortals of His creating. He forgiveth whom He will, and chastiseth whom He will. Allah's is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them, and unto Him is the journeying. (5:18)

O People of the Scripture! Now hath Our messenger come unto you to make things plain unto you after an interval (of cessation) of the messengers, lest ye should say: There came not unto us a messenger of cheer nor any warner. Now hath a messenger of cheer and a warner come unto you. Allah is Able to do all things. (5:19)

Many Muslims choose to see the second verse as 'all people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) should now become Muslim' but clearly in the first verse Allah says no group is above another. The Quran warns that others have gone astray from their Scriptures and they should return and hold fast to their original teaching. The message from Allah throughout the Scriptures has not changed, it is only people that have changed them and twisted their message (including in Islam). I am not saying that I believe all faiths practices are valid, clearly I do not believe Jesus (pbuh) was the son of G-d and I think worshipping him as a god is an insult to Allah. However, I do not believe it is my place to judge anothers beliefs, that is for Allah alone to do.

As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise. (5:38)

But whoso repenteth after his wrongdoing and amendeth, lo! Allah will relent toward him. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (5:39)

Here we have the punishment for theft, sounds very cruel does it not. However, Muslims as well as others always forget the next verse. Wherever Allah prescribes a punishment he always says that if the person repents and amends their conduct they can avoid punishment. That is not so obvious in this second verse here but when you take the Quran as a whole it is so obvious, as it is said so often. Note it says who repenteth after their wrongdoing NOT who repenteth after their punishment.

Personally if it were up to me I would suggest that this is akin to the modern day '3 strikes and you are out' that exists in modern law. If the thief repents and amends then the punishment is not done, however if they continue to steal they know the punishment and take that upon themselves. Be very aware that stealing something such as bread if you are starving is dealt with elsewhere in the Quran, all must be judged justly.

And We prescribed for them therein: The life for the life, and the eye for the eye, and the nose for the nose, and the ear for the ear, and the tooth for the tooth, and for wounds retaliation. But whoso forgoeth it (in the way of charity) it shall be expiation for him. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are wrong-doers. (5:45)

I have missed out a few very important verses here which I will put in a seperate post as I want to invite BB & Dauer to comment. I have put this verse in to demonstrate that punishments are prescribed but that foregoing punishments is an act of atonement. This verse refers to the Torah, the original Scripture and Allah is cofirming His message throughout the Scriptures that it is better not to take vengence and forgive when you have that choice. However repeat offenders must accept that punishments are severe.

Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers. (5:47)

I really do suggest anyone with any interest in interfaith dialogue read this part of the Chapter, from verse 41. The Jews are told to judge by the Torah and here the Christians are told to judge by the Bible.

And what are Muslims told?:

And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ. (5:48)

Now people think I am a fruitcake because I beleve Allah has appointed to each of us a path and our test is to remain steadfast on that path, to accept what is true and reject what is false of our faith (ie the silly man made bits). But this is where I take that belief from - from the Word of Allah.

Can anyone please point out to me where Allah tells me here that everyone must be Muslim????? The Islamic stance comes in the next verse:

So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires, but beware of them lest they seduce thee from some part of that which Allah hath revealed unto thee. And if they turn away, then know that Allah's Will is to smite them for some sin of theirs. Lo! many of mankind are evil-livers. (5:49)

Now I am told that 'that which Allah hath revealed' only means the Quran Allah has just finished telling us that He revealed all of the Scriptures and each must be judged by their Scripture. Now the way I read it is that the Quran confirms what is true and what is manmade of the Scriptures and it is that we must judge by. Therefore, the Quran confirms the story of the virgin birth so I cannot say a Christian is wrong for believing it.

Now if I am not a Muslim or I am going to burn in hell for my above beliefs then so be it, Allah has chosen my path and I shall walk it even againt such overwhelming odds.

In the very next verse Allah tells us:

Is it a judgment of the time of (pagan) ignorance that they are seeking? Who is better than Allah for judgment to a people who have certainty (in their belief)? (5:50)

Does this not mean that those seeking to sway us are not following any of the Scriptures or are not following them correctly? Me thinks so.

Say O People of the Scripture! Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord. That which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them. But grieve not for the disbelieving folk. (5:68)

Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. (5:69)

Oh look, more everyone must be Muslim ..... hmmmm. These are the words of Allah, I happen to think He knows what He is talking about. For me the message of the Quran for the Jews and Chrisitians is that they are straying from their Scriptures and must return to the original teachings, confirmed in the Quran. The first verse here refers to the Quran solidifying disbelief of any and one issue I believe this refers to is the trinity, as the Qurans rejection of the trinity has no doubt made millions of Christians reject the teachings of the Quran.

What I believe is that the message of Jesus (pbuh) is the message of G-d but the story of Jesus (pbuh) grew over time until he was said to be G-d himself.

We then go back to food again, what is allowed and not. Also superstitions are prohibited (slitting camels ears, divination, idol sacrifices, etc). We are told not to follow the ways of our fathers (traditions) because there is nothing to say our fathers followed a good path.

In the day when Allah gathereth together the messengers, and saith: What was your response (from mankind)? they say: We have no knowledge. Lo! Thou, only Thou art the Knower of Things Hidden, (5:109)

Look, even the Prophets do not know what is hidden in our hearts, yet we all run around judging each other and saying who is going to hell as though we know - shame on us.

[Abdullah]

Assalamualikum wr wb ,

I'd just like to thank MW for showing how Islam is a peacefull religion, ...and add a couple of things myself if I may.

Although Mw wouldn't have meant it that way, yet the style of her writing may make it seem to some that she is saying that there is a bad side to the Quran [i,e the verses about fighting], but there is also a good side to it; I'd just like to stress that there is nothing bad at all about the verses that advocates/condones martial activities in the Quran, nor are they in any way 'anti- peace', for they are all basically 'self defence' verses, and there is nothing wrong or anti peace about self defence.

And there is a slight error in one of MW'S 'take' on certain verses of the Quran [not saying that there are no more errors other than this one, but I'll just adress this one; for the expert interpretation of the Quran, rather than just the 'take' of a layperson, refer to following sites:

Altafsir.com – The Tafsirs - ÇáÊÝÇÓíÑ

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir ]

MW mentioned that the majority of muslims view 'christianity and judaism' to be valid before the advent of Islam, implying that there is a minority of muslims that regard them religions to be valid even after the advent of Islam]; this is infact wrong for the entire Muslim community regard the previously revealed religions to be abrogated with the advent of Islam, thus being no longfer valid. Those 'Muslims' who hold the view that all religions are valid, or that Christianty and Judaism are still valid, they go out of Islam thus their view is not considered as a 'minority Muslim view'. For detailed evidence of these facts, refer to following threads:

Only Muslims allowed in heaven?

rabbinic interpretation and jewish law is neither "worship" nor "shirk"

Peace and giudance to all

ps MW may claim that our view of religious exclusivity is held out of 'hate', but that too has been refuted in the threads mentioned

And finally, Mw, Ied Mubarak!

[Tao_Equus]

lmao Abdullah,

Just how many times in the course of human history have slaughters of the innocent taken place in the name of defence? The US is in Iraq in the name of some spun notion of defence. The Muslim butchering of innocents in Sudan is done in the name of defence. Why do you feel the need to chime in with such a comment? Why cant you "add too" rather than attempt to subvert what MW has painstakingly taken the time to post. And if is she is a layman what are you? Because your name is Abdullah and you are born in a particular region you think that gives you the right to state your interpretation and that it will always be better?

I am an atheist and I believe my views supersede anything written before I was born. Why is some guy born many 100's of years ago, who was illiterate and had a penchant for slave girls, any more right than me? For you it is one reason and one reason alone...though I know you will never get that, its because of your mindset. You have chosen to be brainwashed by ancient political mumbo jumbo. Hardly original is it. Hardly a correct interpretation of anything but the bleating of a sheep.

Tao

[Abdullah]

Peace Tao Equs

'Self defense' verses, are not the slaughtering of the innocents that are going on my friend, for Islam does not at all condone such violence; here is a quote from shaykh Hamza that basically sums up the type of martial Jihad that is advocated/condoned in the Quran:

"...in Islam, the only wars that are permitted are between armies and they should engage on battle fields and engage nobly...The Prophet Muhammed [sm] said: "Do not kill women or children or non-combatants, and do not kill old people or religious people", and he mentioned priests, nuns and rabbi's. And he said "Do not cut down fruit bearing trees and do not poison the well of your enemies. ...". [Quote of Shiekh Hamza Yusuf, San Hose Mercury News, sep 15, 2001]

The above type of wars can only be fought in defense, and against opression as a last resort [offensive jihad against opression, must be ordered by a valid ruler], with the strictest and most humane guidlines ever.

Peace

[bob x]

Abdullah, Tao: if I can leave Muslimwoman in peace on this thread, so can you.

[Muslimwoman]

The Quran and the Jewish faith:

This doesn't quite fit in with my theme but as this issue largely stems from this chapter and chapter 9 I thought we would deal with it anyway. I will invite BB & Dauer to comment if they like.

Speaking of Jews the Quran says:

When in their insolence they transgressed (all) prohibitions, We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected." (6:177)

There is debate among the scholars as to whether this means they were literally turned into apes or their characters became as apes. Either way this verse is speaking of one group of Jews that broke the Sabbath, not all Jewish people for all time. This can be clearly shown in verse 2:65

And ye know of those of you who broke the Sabbath, how We said unto them: Be ye apes, despised and hated! (2:65)

Do you see how easy it is to take a single verse and misuse it to hate a group of people or suggest Islam teaches hate toward those people?

The first thing I would like you to ask yourself is why Islam allows a Muslim man to marry a Jewess or Christian woman if Allah wants us to hate and kill Jews and Christians? These ladies are permitted to retain and practice their faith but should accept that their children follow the faith of the father (ie Islam, which is why a Muslim woman cannot marry a man of another faith or her children could not be Muslim). The future of mankind is about having children, so why on earth would Muslims be allowed to marry 'the enemies of Islam' and to allow them to bear our children if we see non Muslims as 'evil' or something hateful? It just does not make sense does it - kill them wherever you find them, unless you want to marry them in which case you must allow them to go to church or synagogue??

Much is said about the Jewish faith in the Quran and some of it makes very unpleasant reading if you do not put context around the verses. I happen to love a man called Dr Jamal Badawi, who has spent his life putting context around these verses and hadiths and searching for peace and dialogue between faiths. One of his main complaints is the 'cut and paste' practice of Muslims and non Muslims alike, where people use part of a verse or a whole verse, ignoring the surrounding verses and historical context. I would urge anyone (Muslims and non Muslims) to take the time to watch these 7 films of Dr Badawi speaking about misunderstood Quranic verses. This is the first film but will link to the other 6, all are about 10 minutes long:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=yMfWURGcv...Badawi%20Bible

Also have a read of this short article by Dr Badawi on Muslim & non Muslim relations:

IslamOnline - Contemporary Section

So why does the Quran contain verses that teach hatred and violence toward the Jewish faith? Simply - it does not. The verses refer to certain groups of Jews in the Arabian Steppes at the time of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), which I believe BB or Dauer would suggest were not exactly 'practicing Judaism'.

You will find on such websites as Islam watch such utter drivel as this:

This is the story of the tragic end of the Jews of Medina. A case of ethnic cleansing, betrayal and genocide carried out by the Messenger of Allah (PBUH). The prophet raided the 2000 year old Jewish communities of Medina, killed their men, confiscated their properties, enslaved their wives and children and banished the unwanted with no provocation on the part of he Jews. The holy Prophet's sole motive was greed for their wealth and lust for their women.

Why do I call this utter rubbish? Because the Muslim community in Mecca was being persecuted and killed by the Quraysh, so were invited by the pagan Arabs to move to Yathrib (called Medina by the Muslims). About 70 Muslims and their families escaped to Medina. However, it was some time before the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) arrived with one single companion, leaving Mecca on the night the pagans tried to assaninate the Prophet. ERMMM, so he and his single companion obviously charged across the desert and wiped out the Jewish community?! This sort of sensationalist rubbish builds hatred between people, as well a total lie about historical facts.

So what realy happened in Medina? Medina was an oasis which is why it had attracted people of different faiths and Jews had chosen to live together with pagan Arabs in order for the tribes to benefit from life at the oasis. Medina had 3 groups of Jewish merchants (Banu Quinuqah, Banu Nadhir and Banu Quraizah) living there and had shared their belief in a single G-d with the Arab pagan tribes. This is why they were more willing to accept the Muslims and their rejection of pagan gods than the Meccans had been. Things started out quite well after the arrival of Mohammad, the Muslims were instructed to pray toward Jerusalem, 3 times a day as the Jews did. Muslim men were allowed to marry Jewish women and follow their dietry requirements. Prophet Mohammad made a treaty with the Jews and pagans, which allowed all religious freedom.

Over time things began to sour between the Jews and Muslims. There are two reasons for this: 1) Religious differences, some Jews would go into the mosque and laugh while Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) was speaking, they had more knowledge of Scripture so would pick holes in his stories of previous Prophets (needless to say this didn't go down well with the Prophet or his believers) and 2) Political. By this time Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) had converted most of the Arab pagans and the Ummah (Muslims) had become very politically powerful in Medina. Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) had written what is believed to be the worlds first ever constitution which dealt with government, defence, 'foreign policy', social insurance and freedom of religion (which did include a tax for non Muslims to pay for their defence).

Not all the Jews of Medina treated the Prophet in this way, some had formed friendships with the Muslims and would teach them about the Torah and indeed about the Gospels. They even showed them how to argue against his critics by using the Scriptures. The most important thing the Prophet learned from the friendly Jews was the story of Ishmael, which meant the Arabs were also sons of Abraham.

In 624 the Prophet Mohammad declared the Muslims' independence from the Jews, he made Muslims pray toward Mecca and the Kabah (believed to be where Abraham prayed to Allah). This all goes against this idea that the Muslims marched on Medina, killed the men, raped the women and took the oasis by force.

The Banu Qainuqah tribe of Jews had been banished from Medina after breaking the treaty, they went to settle in Syria. After refusing to renew the treaty and attempting to assaninate the Prophet Mohammad, the Jewish Banu Nadhir tribe were also exiled from Medina for breaking the treaty.

The pagan tribes of Mecca marched on Medina to kill the Muslims 3 times (battle of Badr in 623 and battle of Uhud in 624). The third battle was called The battle of the Trench (Battle of Ahzab) in 626. Around 10,000 Meccan fighters and their allies marched on Medina, an overwhelming number. Now comes the traitorous actions of the Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza and the verses of the Quran that refer to these particular Jews. There was no way that the army of Medina could win a war against 10,000 Meccans so they decided on a defensive strategy. They dug a huge trench around the city of Medina. They created a siege situation, never before heard of in Arabia and totally confusing for the Meccans. The siege lasted a full month.

During this siege the Jewish Banu Qurayza tribe tried to stay neutral. They had supplied equipment for digging the trench but neither assisted or planned to join any battle. Their tribe shared a border with Medina to the south but no defensive measures had been taken here because of the treaty. However, the leader of the exiled Banu Nadhir Jewish tribe was with the Meccans and came to the Qurayza tribe to seek their support against the Muslims. He persuaded them that if they attacked from the south the Muslims would be defeated and the Jews could again control Medina. The Muslims caught wind of this betrayal and in the 3rd week of the siege the Jewish tribe signalled their readiness to join the Meccans in fighting the Muslims. The Jewish tribe insisted that the Meccans give them hostages, so they could not turn aginst the Jews but the Meccans refused. To the horror of the Qurayza tribe the Meccans gave up the siege at the end of the fourth week and left the Jews to face the consequences of betraying the treaty and planning to wipe ou the Muslims.

The Jews of Quaryza were charged with treason and all the men beheaded and all the women enslaved (other than those that converted to Islam). Were the verses refer to 'not trusting Jews' and 'hunt them and kill them wherever you find them' these verses are talking about these treasonous tribes. You can see from this that the references to Jewish people is not in relation to religious beliefs or practices but simply to political matters (therefore Jewish heritage rather than faith). Is it indicative of Jewish behaviour - No. BB or Dauer could shed more light about the practices of these Jewish tribes at that time in Arabia but it is my belief they had gone astray from their faith. This is also where we have many verses about not taking Jews or Christians as 'friends' (which can translate into leaders or teachers in faith).

To conclude, did Muslims and Jewish people throughout time go around hugging each other? No, treaties were made between tribes, the stronger being paid a tax to defend the weaker. These are political issues and were quite a new concept at the time. If you look at the constitution of Medina you can see that the Jews are also called an Ummah (a group of believers, alongside Muslims).

Bernard Lewis (an author recommended to me by BB) states that this idea of 'awful dhimmitude' of the Jews is a myth but so is the 'golden era' of peaceful co-existence and respect. The truth is in the middle somewhere, Jews and Muslims found ways to co-exist relatively peacefully, while accepting their theological differences. For anyone to take those verses of the Quran, be they Muslim or non Muslim and say 'look the Muslims must hate the Jews' has either not bothered to read about the context or is just looking for a reason to spread hatred.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

Abdullah, Tao: if I can leave Muslimwoman in peace on this thread, so can you.

Thank you very much Bob, very unexpected but very welcome comment.


Abdullah if you wish to begin a thread about your vision or understanding of Islam there is nothing stopping you.

If you read my post No 18 you will see the following:

I am not saying that I believe all faiths practices are valid, clearly I do not believe Jesus (pbuh) was the son of G-d and I think worshipping him as a god is an insult to Allah. However, I do not believe it is my place to judge anothers beliefs, that is for Allah alone to do.

So either read what I write or do not bothering commenting on it.

[Muslimwoman]

Surah 6 is called Al-Anaam (meaning cattle/livestock)

They say: Why hath not an angel been sent down unto him? If We sent down an angel, then the matter would be judged; no further time would be allowed them (for reflection). (6:8)

I love this verse so much. How often do people ask us "why doesn't Allah show Himself or send proof of His existence". Here is our answer. Faith is called faith for a reason, could we earn a place in heaven if Allah send absolute proof that nobody could deny? Everyone would believe in an instant and the world would be over.

This Surah deals with what was obviously a great sadness for the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) that people rejected him and the message he brought. Allah comforts the Prophet that people have denied Messengers that have gone before him and that Allah has sealed some hearts and made some ears deaf. Allah also points out to the Prophet that he is not accountable for those that fail to believe.

The Surah then goes on to explain the capabilites of Allah and warn us against worshipping anything but Him. It goes on to speak of some of the Prophets Allah has guided throughout time.

And do not abuse those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest exceeding the limits they should abuse Allah out of ignorance. Thus have We made fair seeming to every people their deeds; then to their Lord shall be their return, so He will inform them of what they did. (6:108)

I have used Shakirs translation here as the other translators use very old fashioned english which is harder to understand. This verse always leaves me with the question 'do we have a choice in our beliefs?' This chapter speaks again and again that people cannot believe unless Allah wills it.

The chapter to goes on to challenge certain religious practices, saying if they are truthul then they should prove it. So food that was declared forbidden but was not forbidden in scriptures was challenged.

Say: Come, I will recite unto you that which your Lord hath made a sacred duty for you: That ye ascribe no thing as partner unto Him and that ye do good to parents, and that ye slay not your children because of penury - We provide for you and for them - and that ye draw not nigh to lewd things whether open or concealed. And that ye slay not the life which Allah hath made sacred, save in the course of justice. This He hath command you, in order that ye may discern. (6:151)

And approach not the wealth of the orphan save with that which is better, till he reach maturity. Give full measure and full weight, in justice. We task not any soul beyond its scope. And if ye give your word, do justice thereunto, even though it be (against) a kinsman; and fulfil the covenant of Allah. This He commandeth you that haply ye may remember. (6:152)

Again we are commanded to do right, be just and not kill other than in justice.

Lest ye should say: The Scripture was revealed only to two sects before us, and we in sooth were unaware of what they read; (6:156)

Allah tells us repeatedly in the Quran that He sends a warner to every nation, therefore we cannot say we were not told of His existence.

Lo! As for those who sunder their religion and become schismatics, no concern at all hast thou with them. Their case will go to Allah, Who then will tell them what they used to do. (6:159)

Looks like we are all in a lot of trouble - anyone know of any religion that does not have sects?


Whoso bringeth a good deed will receive tenfold the like thereof, while whoso bringeth an ill-deed will be awarded but the like thereof; and they will not be wronged. (6:160)

The mercy of Allah is unending.

Say: Shall I seek another than Allah for Lord, when He is Lord of all things? Each soul earneth only on its own account, nor doth any laden bear another's load. Then unto your Lord is your return and He will tell you that wherein ye differed. (6:164)

We are only accountable for our own deeds and will only be judges by our own deeds, good and bad.

I have not included very many verses of this Surah as the chapter does not deal too much with the issues we are considering, the ethics of social practices during this life.

Salaam

[greymare]

thanks for this post mw, I have found it very intereseting. I mean interesting. lol. Seriously, I am glad that you have done this because it gives me a chance in real simple english to understand what being a muslim is about. this is why I joined this forum originally. thnaks heaps again and keep writing. I'll be checking this regularly. love the Grey

[wil]

Great reading....and is it just me or does anyone else chuckle when someone disagrees or counters what MW posts!

lol....there is no counter/disagreement possible...the title of the post is thru her eyes! All counter thoughts would be thru someone else's eyes!

gotta love it!

[Snoopy]

Hello from a furtive lurker.

s.

[flowperson]

MW...Still furtively lurking and loving what you are writing.

Salaam my Sister....flow....

[Muslimwoman]

Oh my friends, you fill my heart to overflowing, really you do.

Thank you Wil, I worded the title very carefully so people understood that it is just my view but unfortunately some people believe that unless I remove my brain and have a pre programmed chip installed I can't be a Muslim. So sad and I have no appointments for a labotomy.

Salaam
MW