The presence of evil

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by Azure24

... perfection is not something you are just born being, to me you have to aquire(become) perfection. But the devil cut that short. Besides perfection is not something that could be made, perfection is something that just is i.e. God and God only otherwise we will all be God.

Azure, it looks to me like you have flatly contradicted yourself here. Do I misunderstand? "perfection ... you have to acquire (become)" and then "perfection is not something that could be made, perfection is something that just is." I emphasize "just is," because I don't see how you can acquire something - "become it," in your own words - if it "just is." Hmmmm ....

Besides, who says we won't all be God? This is exactly what the mystical path is about, not to mention the esoteric, or occult path!!! Naturally, there are those who cringe at the thought - the anthropomorphists, on one side, who cannot but imagine God in some (particular) form, but equally the mystics and occultists. The latter realize that in saying, "I shall become God," they are invoking the greatest of all temptations, pride, which says, "I am already (a) God." And yet, these two statements have NOTHING to do with one another ...

Namaskar,

taijasi

[AletheiaRivers]

Maybe we are not "imperfect"? Maybe things are the way they have to be, metaphysically and physically, in this material manifestation?

Pondering out loud here ...

<Edit to add>

As I read what I wrote, I realize it sounds like I'm saying something like "We are being tested" or something like that. Just to clarify, I am not saying that. I'm speaking of ontology here.

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by cavalier

Your "But to practice it is.." line returns us to the question. Since we agree that people practice evil, we must also agree that there is imperfection. So then, If we are created by a perfect God, where does the imperfection come from?

From simple logic. If there is but ONE Whom and Which is Perfection (deeper still, IS the ROOT of perfection itself!!!) ... then tell me, could such a Being/Entity/Power create a second perfect being - even just one such perfect being? Wouldn't that make TWO of these "ultimate God things?"

Okay, okay, hang on ... that perfect being makes a 2nd (or any number of) "perfect being," yet they are somehow lesser?

Oh really now? And how can THAT be? Wouldn't they then be less perfect, by very definition? If not, then on what basis are they NOT considered EQUAL beings to their Parent/Father/Source?

You see? God isn't illogical ... but most of the time, WE ARE. And we don't even really consider that this whole Creation/Emanation bit is difficult to figure out - from the outside looking in, so to speak.

But perhaps God DID create lesser but potentially perfect beings ... and that's US. And maybe the LAST distinguishing factor that keeps US from God is this question of scale - or ... the fact that we are younger emanations of God than ROOT God, for lack of better terminology (actually, Hinduism, Kabbalah, and Esotericism are FULL of useful terminology).

Suppose then, that the FINAL distinction to disappear, separating us from God, is that which has been likened to "the dewdrop slipping into the shining sea." This, every Mystic has experienced, at least to some extent. Every Occultist knows, as Science. And it is just a given, an accepted tenet, for many, many millions in this world. It seems to me that the anthropomorphist, in the end, will struggle nearly as hard as the atheist, maybe harder, because s/he cannot or will not admit of a fundamental IDENTITY (Base or Root Unity, behind all outer appearances) - WITH GOD, AS God.

The statement is not, "I am (already) God, IN REALIZATION or attainment" ... as I posted just 10 minutes ago. The statement, rather, is, "I am at heart, deep down ... a Spark of the Divine Flame - and THIS IS THE GUARANTEE and PROMISE (Covenant!!!) ... that I, too, like YOU, SHALL BECOME - GOD." Damn shame that people would rather argue that, then ask, HOW?

Cheers,

taijasi

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by taijasi

From simple logic. If there is but ONE Whom and Which is Perfection (deeper still, IS the ROOT of perfection itself!!!) ... then tell me, could such a Being/Entity/Power create a second perfect being - even just one such perfect being? Wouldn't that make TWO of these "ultimate God things?"

Okay, okay, hang on ... that perfect being makes a 2nd (or any number of) "perfect being," yet they are somehow lesser?

Oh really now? And how can THAT be? Wouldn't they then be less perfect, by very definition? If not, then on what basis are they NOT considered EQUAL beings to their Parent/Father/Source?

Hey taijasi

I think you said this before, this time though I get what you're saying.

I'd like your opinion on this, if God can only create beings which are less than perfect, then for perfection to be fully perfect it must contain the possibility of imperfection.

If not, then I would have to conclude that it is not God who makes us less than perfect, but actually some higher/ over-riding force which, in the name of logic lessens us.

[AletheiaRivers]

Originally Posted by cavalier

I'd like your opinion on this, if God can only create beings which are less than perfect, then for perfection to be fully perfect it must contain the possibility of imperfection.

Originally Posted by IntegralScience.org

"What is the Infinite? To define it as other than the finite is to set the infinite apart from the finite, and thereby limit it.

To define the infinite, therefore, is to make it definite, and no longer infinite.

In fact, to say anything at all of the Infinite, is to actually say nothing about the true Infinite. Like the Tao, the Infinite that can be named is not the true Infinite.

The Infinite, then, is ineffable. ...Or is it? If we think that the Infinite is ineffable, we have once again defined it by distinguishing it from what is not ineffable.

The Infinite is so utterly ineffable that we cannot even say that it is ineffable. Even this, however, is saying too much."

If God is infinite, he MUST contain all things.

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by cavalier

Hey taijasi

I think you said this before, this time though I get what you're saying.

I'd like your opinion on this, if God can only create beings which are less than perfect, then for perfection to be fully perfect it must contain the possibility of imperfection.

If not, then I would have to conclude that it is not God who makes us less than perfect, but actually some higher/ over-riding force which, in the name of logic lessens us.

I truly do not believe that there is any deceit, or anything less than Perfect Love and Compassion behind all of what we understand as manifestation/Creation. Still, we must consider that the Purpose for which all this has been made is something as yet beyond us, and to suggest that even our little planet exists simply so that Humanity (collectively) can exist - or even climb Jacob's Ladder to perfection ... is short-sighted. It would be like saying that the purpose of a tree is provide us with shade on a hot day!

But it's difficult not to be anthropocentric, and it's more than just a philosophical exercise to ask the questions we're asking, imho. But actually, I do think that there are a number of "lessenings" that occur just in order for our very Solar System, or physical world, to come into being ... and equally so for it to be "peopled," or filled with various lifeforms (of which Humanity is not the highest, or most spiritual). A lessening, which I perfer to understand as a willing (though necessary) Sacrifice on God's part - the making Sacred - of a Space which otherwise would be empty, or deVOID of Creation ... must first occur.

Thus I believe that God makes one Sacrifice in order just to "prepare the field," so to speak. But an even greater Sacrifice, in some ways, is required, in order to give rise to our Individualized existence(s), as "Children of the Most High." To put this into the terms we're considering, God creates us as imperfect beings - so distinguished or identified precisely due to the fact that He/It has temporarily separated us from Himself ... NOT in essence, or at Heart (in HIS Heart), but rather, insomuch as FROM the immediately-prior state of PERFECT and TOTAL Unity (IDENTITY) with Him, we are brought into a state of Individual Existence.

We are still utterly dependent upon Deity for our very Being (at NO POINT does this really every change!) ... but temporily, we will be submitted to the worlds of Generation - of Being through Becoming (here we get into the Law of Love, but also of the "Cycles of Necessity," to which even God Himself is subject, on a higher turn of the spiral!). This is the distinction between the "Self-Born" Gods ... and those, such as ourselves, who are Gods-in-the-making. We contain the seed of Perfection (of God Himself, or Itself), but we must PLANT it, water it, nurture it, carefully cultivate it, and weed it, eventually, such that it can become that which is intended.

Where and what is evil? It is the inherent potential for struggle, within us, which is always present from the very first days of our pilgrimage (in lesser, or sub-human kingdoms) ... but which does not provide any real resistance, save through the elements of the world around us - to which we are utterly subject for the earliest parts of our journey. Yet even animals know to talk shelter from the storm. Do they "think" the storm - the lightning, tornado and hurricane - is "evil?" Maybe, but NOT as we do ... only in a relative sense. See?

Then WE come along (individualized FROM animals, but not "evolved" in the Darwinian sense). We incarnate in a one-to-one ratio, one soul, one form ... versus the one soul, MANY forms of the animal kingdom (watch a flock of birds for this observation). We begin to deal with karma on a one-to-one basis. We sow, we reap, we steal, we must learn the consequence - WHY this wrong. Karma is how God teaches us, and as we LEARN to understand it, and to get over the mistaken notion that ANYONE punishes or rewards us SAVE for OURSELVES ... then we begin to see the Beauty, the Harmony, the DIVINE PERFECTION of God's Plan that actually IS manifest ... right here, right now, all around us.

Christ tried to teach us this. I just WISH folks would "get it!" What ELSE do we suppose He meant when He spoke of the Kingdom of Heaven being right here, within us even, for those who could see and hear? It had NOTHING to do with "being saved," except for being saved from our own ignorance - ignorance NOT in a pejorative sense, or really even negative, surely not "evil." God didn't start that business, WE did, with our misunderstandings. It has NOTHING to do with an imaginary Adam ... Adam Kadmon is simply the prototypical man, our earliest ancestors, who weren't even physically manifest ... they were subtle (astral, etheric), still learning to exist within the worlds of form, or dense matter, and hence very clumsy, learning the hard way, and YES, sometimes committing incredible acts of what WE would call "sin" (mating with huge, "she-animals" as it's put, and spawning a race of "dumb giants" - the stupid aliens, the nephilim, good GRIEF what a mess we've made of these teachings).

Anyway, it's not that we weren't responsible a million years ago, it's just that we weren't exactly Einsteins, so how were we going to offset the burden of these tremendous acts of negative karma? Karma doesn't say, "Oh, okay, let's just overlook this," or "Oh, you PRAYED! Let's forget it."

But God IS merciful, just, understanding, Loving, and so on. So the agents of Karma (Lipika, or Devarajas on Earth) make considerable adjustments, and they work with us, like counselors kinda. And the farther we advance on the spiritual path, the more we learn - how to balance and offset our Karma, how to do in ONE lifetime what amounts to atoning for FIFTY lifetimes of sin, murder, etc. The Law MUST be balanced, but this is not a matter of punishment (or rewared). SIghhhhhh .... It's just the way things are!!! This is the ONLY Justice that could EVER exist, if we really think about it.

And Perfection? Well, it's relative, but it can and does come to those who apply themselves, and walk the Path to it's very most advanced stages, for this PLanet. That begins our Cosmic Journey, as many have attested, and do attest. It does not END anything, really, except that eventually we must say goodbye to the suffering and the woe of this world - and to its many billions (60, not 6) of human inhabitants, mostly still suffering due to the ignorance that conditions us early on. But we're not exactly infants - we are a MATURING Humanity, and that's where the struggles come in. It's our adolescent years, and FAR WORSE STILL, we're facing Puberty, and the SEVERE crises of young adulthood. Why is this any real surprise? That we're suffering so, I mean?

No one is mad or angry, no one is punishing us. Only WE are making things rough, because like many teens (young Humanitys), we can be hostile, stubborn, and so forth. This isn't a metaphor, it's how things are!

But it isn't the end of the world, any more than the rebellious teen is at the end of his days. Evil, yes, definitely involved, plenty of ontological and metaphysical considerations ... but I think the basics matter more than jumping into all that.

Ah well, that's just how I see it ...

Namaskar,

taijasi

[cavalier]

Thanks both, for your replies. Taijasi, I'll have to read over and think about your post a few more times. On a first reaction though, I do like a lot of your ideas.

Thanks again

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by cavalier

Thanks both, for your replies. Taijasi, I'll have to read over and think about your post a few more times. On a first reaction though, I do like a lot of your ideas.

Thanks again

Thanks, Cavalier. Probably the soul of an old Neo-Platonic or even Pythagorean coming through ...

cheers,

taijasi

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by AletheiaRivers

If God is infinite, he MUST contain all things.

I disagree. God does not contain the absense of anything. Therefore the absense of "good" is not possible for God. The Laws of physics make this quite clear. (a clue to the design of God?...).

The absense of things in "created beings" however is possible (hence imperfection). God lacks nothing. That which is created lacks...

Even man in his lamment cries out for the "lack" within his soul...it is in our prose and poetry, it is in our marriages, and relationships. It is in our very fibers of existence. We acknowledge that we "lack" something. But here comes God, who states "I lack nothing".

We state often enough "I am cold". When in reality what we are stating is "I lack heat"...We say "I am sick" when in reality we mean "I lack full health". We say "I am dying", when in reality we mean "I lack life, it is draining away".

Evil, is the lack of good (or the lack of God).

my thoughts

v/r

Q

[AletheiaRivers]

I appreciate your thoughts Q.

So God is not infinite?

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

God does not contain the absense of anything. Therefore the absense of "good" is not possible for God. The Laws of physics make this quite clear.

Q
I'm not saying I disagree with you, I just wonder whether God has to fit in with the laws of physics. Or should I say, the laws of physics as far as we know them.
I believe I am correct in saying that the laws of physics state that a bumblebee cannot fly. How much more will God defy these laws?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by cavalier

Q
I'm not saying I disagree with you, I just wonder whether God has to fit in with the laws of physics. Or should I say, the laws of physics as far as we know them.
I believe I am correct in saying that the laws of physics state that a bumblebee cannot fly. How much more will God defy these laws?

lol, no, we say a Bumble bee can not fly...try telling the bee that.

I was just using physics as a an anlalogy, not trying to box God into a corner.

v/r

Q

[Jeannot]

Philosophically speaking, evil cannot be "present," since evil is a lack, a privation. That is, something that should be there is not. This does not deny the very real power of evil, since a vacuum can cause a very destructive implosion.

In Christianity, evil is explained by Original Sin, a primal defection from perfection. Cardinal Newman presents a powerful evocaton of this doctrine:


"Starting then with the being of a God, (which, as I have said, is as certain to me as the certainty of my own existence, though when I try to put the grounds of that certainty into logical shape I find a difficulty in doing so in mood and figure to my satisfaction,) I look out of myself into the world of men, and there I see a sight which fills me with unspeakable distress. The world seems simply to give the lie to that great truth, of which my whole being is so full; and the effect upon me is, in consequence, as a matter of necessity, as confusing as if it denied that I am in existence myself. If I looked into a mirror, and did not see my face, I should have the sort of feeling which actually comes upon me, when I look into this living busy world, and see no reflexion of its Creator. This is, to me, one of those great difficulties of this absolute primary truth, to which I referred just now. Were it not for this voice, speaking so clearly in my conscience and my heart, I should be an atheist, or a pantheist, or a polytheist when I looked into the world. I am speaking for myself only; and I am far from denying the real force of the arguments in proof of a God, drawn from the general facts of human society and the course of history, but these do not warm me or enlighten me; they do not take away the winter of my desolation, or make the buds unfold and the leaves grow within me, and my moral being rejoice. The sight of the world is nothing else than the prophet's scroll, full of 'lamentations, and mourning, and woe.'


"To consider the world in its length and breadth, its various history, the many races of man, their starts, their fortunes, their mutual alienation, their conflicts; and then {242} their ways, habits, governments, forms of worship; their enterprises, their aimless courses, their random achievements and acquirements, the impotent conclusion of long-standing facts, the tokens so faint and broken of a superintending design, the blind evolution of what turn out to be great powers or truths, the progress of things, as if from unreasoning elements, not towards final causes, the greatness and littleness of man, his far-reaching aims, his short duration, the curtain hung over his futurity, the disappointments of life, the defeat of good, the success of evil, physical pain, mental anguish, the prevalence and intensity of sin, the pervading idolatries, the corruptions, the dreary hopeless irreligion, that condition of the whole race, so fearfully yet exactly described in the Apostle's words, "having no hope and without God in the world,"—all this is a vision to dizzy and appal; and inflicts upon the mind the sense of a profound mystery, which is absolutely beyond human solution.


"What shall be said to this heart-piercing, reason-bewildering fact? I can only answer, that either there is no Creator, or this living society of men is in a true sense discarded from His presence. Did I see a boy of good make and mind, with the tokens on him of a refined nature, cast upon the world without provision, unable to say whence he came, his birthplace or his family connexions, I should conclude that there was some mystery connected with his history, and that he was one, of whom, from one cause or other, his parents were ashamed. Thus only should I be able to account for the contrast between the promise and the condition of his being. And so I argue about the world;—if there be a God, since there is a God, the human race is implicated in some terrible aboriginal calamity. It is out of joint with the purposes of its Creator. This is a fact, a fact as true as the fact of its existence; and thus the doctrine of what is theologically {243} called original sin becomes to me almost as certain as that the world exists, and as the existence of God."


As Newman says, evil is a "heart-piercing, reason-bewildering fact." And basically it is not a philosophical problem at all, to be decided by the intellect. It is an existential one, to be lived every moment of every day. One of the best existential presentations of the problem is, I think, the Book of Job. Job bitches and pisses and moans though most of the book, while his friends tell him he is getting what he deserves, and he should just accept it. But Job argues with them. maintaining his innocence, or at least his integrity.


Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him.
But I will maintain my own ways before Him.


Then God appears and says that Job has spoken truly of Him, but that his friends have not. So much for conventional piety.

[Azure24]

If God is perfect then God will know that if we were perfect we will try to gain power over God (much like the Devil, who allegedly was the first God made and maybe to closest to power)? Or only one perfect being can exist (forget what i said about aquiring perfection). At the end of the day something made this universe, you either believe it (God) is perfect or not? And if you still question, why don't you just ask him?

[wil]

Originally Posted by Azure24

...him?