The path has become more of a dirt track.

[Caimanson]

Hello Vaj, I don't understand Buddhism much, but what you quoted is so true.
I agree it is an important ingredient to listen to your pure inner voice if that makes sense, but I believe that first what we need is to fulfil our need of love and acceptance to a reasonable degree.
Otherwise we will be paralized with fear, too scared of walking it alone, too worried about being rejected or damned.
Even worse you can jump all the way and deceive yourself because your sense of worth will be too distorted and externalised, you will still carry with you the voices of your teachers, your bullies, your parents, etc. End result, you get a fine neurotic religious/spiritual person.

People have been woderful in this thread, they have been supporting in a way that is unobstrusive, building up love and self worth I hope?

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Caimanson

Hello Vaj, I don't understand Buddhism much, but what you quoted is so true.
I agree it is an important ingredient to listen to your pure inner voice if that makes sense, but I believe that first what we need is to fulfil our need of love and acceptance to a reasonable degree.
Otherwise we will be paralized with fear, too scared of walking it alone, too worried about being rejected or damned.
Even worse you can jump all the way and deceive yourself because your sense of worth will be too distorted and externalised, you will still carry with you the voices of your teachers, your bullies, your parents, etc. End result, you get a fine neurotic religious/spiritual person.

People have been woderful in this thread, they have been supporting in a way that is unobstrusive, building up love and self worth I hope?

Here is a bit more from the Kalama Sutta, which stresses what is really essential:

16. "The disciple of the Noble Ones, Kalamas, who in this way is devoid of coveting, devoid of ill will, un-deluded, clearly comprehending and mindful, dwells, having pervaded, with the thought of amity, one quarter; likewise the second; likewise the third; likewise the fourth; so above, below, and across; he dwells, having pervaded because of the existence in it of all living beings, everywhere, the entire world, with the great, exalted, boundless thought of amity that is free of hate or malice.

<...>

17. "The disciple of the Noble Ones, Kalamas, who has such a hate-free mind, such a malice-free mind, such an undefiled mind, and such a purified mind, is one by whom four solaces are found here and now.

When these qualities are realized, scripture, traditions, axiams, specious reasonings, and biases based upon them take a back seat.

[Tariki]

Originally Posted by earl

Hey Tariki. I know of what thread you spoke, (seems like that forum's been tilting too much to the monochromatic, stilted,and literal lately hasn't it?) But yes in the spirit I think you mean there's always good old Lin-Chi, Rinzai Zen founder: "If you want to live freely or die, go or stay, to take off or put on (your clothes), then right now recognize the man who is listening to my discourse. He is without form, without characteristics, without root, without source, and without any dwelling place yet is brisk and lively." Lin-Chi, also in the same regard spoke of the enlightened man as a man "without rank." Without dwelling place, without rank, yet free to roam. I do believe that pathless path is the life/death we ultimately seek to live. Does that come in a brand name? Have a good one, earl

Earl,

Nice to hear from you again. I certainly don't wish to give myself any "airs and graces" as far as "enlightenment " is concerned. I claim to live nowhere but the "lower yanas"......in the valleys so to speak! Yet when others insist it MUST be an Armani suit rather than beachwear that's taken off or put on........................

[Caimanson]

When these qualities are realized, scripture, traditions, axiams, specious reasonings, and biases based upon them take a back seat.[/quote]


I 'm not familiar with the context of the extract you quoted, it sounds a lot like the fruits of the Spirit, like an ultimate standard to aspire to, which is fine if it is a realistic aim rather than a goal.
I say this because in IMHO "perfection" of that kind is not possible (at least not permanently).
Still, how do you get there (and stay there) if your life has too many cracks, if you are more or less together and whole you probably won't bother getting there anyway, because you are not much of a tortured soul.

Sorry I'm a bit too cynical, I prefer more realistic aims, or at least aims that are packaged more sensibly and accessible, they give me more freedom and less fuel to my demons.
I feel that when people do get close is without intending or trying, it is spontaneus. You didn't catch the wave, the wave catched you.

As for myself I haven't seen a big wave for quite a while, at least I get to enjoy the earthly scenery a little bit.

[wil]

A friend of mine was being ordained/initiated?? as a Buddhist Monk. Through some complications the monk of the Tibetan tradition from whence he studied was not available for the ceremony, but it was deemed to proceed with the event. The NGO representative of the American Buddhists came down from NY to do the ceremony. I was blessed to be halfway between the two, and asked to arrange a space and attend.

Of the many wonderful things he said, one that stuck was,(paraphrased) "Trust nothing, believe nothing, learn everything for yourself. Don't believe me or the sutras, read, explore prove and learn for yourself"

[flowperson]

Originally Posted by wil

Of the many wonderful things he said, one that stuck was,(paraphrased) "Trust nothing, believe nothing, learn everything for yourself. Don't believe me or the sutras, read, explore prove and learn for yourself"

This really is the only way to fly, IMHO. Of course it automatically makes one a heretical, blasphemous Christian... if not a terrorist of some flavor.

flow....

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by flowperson

This really is the only way to fly, IMHO. Of course it automatically makes one a heretical, blasphemous Christian... if not a terrorist of some flavor.

flow....

Not heretic..."thinker"...

v/r

Q

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Caimanson

I 'm not familiar with the context of the extract you quoted, it sounds a lot like the fruits of the Spirit, like an ultimate standard to aspire to, which is fine if it is a realistic aim rather than a goal.
I say this because in IMHO "perfection" of that kind is not possible (at least not permanently).
Still, how do you get there (and stay there) if your life has too many cracks, if you are more or less together and whole you probably won't bother getting there anyway, because you are not much of a tortured soul.

Sorry I'm a bit too cynical, I prefer more realistic aims, or at least aims that are packaged more sensibly and accessible, they give me more freedom and less fuel to my demons.
I feel that when people do get close is without intending or trying, it is spontaneus. You didn't catch the wave, the wave catched you.

As for myself I haven't seen a big wave for quite a while, at least I get to enjoy the earthly scenery a little bit.

Perhaps this poem might help, when taken in the context of this thread:

Poem – The centipede
by Mrs Edmund Craster (d. 1874)


A centipede was happy quite,
Until a toad in fun
Said ‘Pray which leg moves after which ?
This raised her doubts to such a pitch
She fell exhausted in a ditch,
Not knowing how to run.

While lying in this plight,
A ray of sunshine caught her sight;
She dwelt upon its beauties long,
Till breaking into happy song,
Unthinking she began to run,
And quite forgot the croakers fun.

[Tariki]

Originally Posted by Caimanson

I 'm not familiar with the context of the extract you quoted, it sounds a lot like the fruits of the Spirit, like an ultimate standard to aspire to, which is fine if it is a realistic aim rather than a goal.
I say this because in IMHO "perfection" of that kind is not possible (at least not permanently).
Still, how do you get there (and stay there) if your life has too many cracks, if you are more or less together and whole you probably won't bother getting there anyway, because you are not much of a tortured soul.

Sorry I'm a bit too cynical, I prefer more realistic aims, or at least aims that are packaged more sensibly and accessible, they give me more freedom and less fuel to my demons.
I feel that when people do get close is without intending or trying, it is spontaneus. You didn't catch the wave, the wave catched you.

As for myself I haven't seen a big wave for quite a while, at least I get to enjoy the earthly scenery a little bit.

"A clearly enlightened person falls in the well. How is this so?"

(Traditional Zen Koan)

.............and from the Christian tradition, from Julian of Norwich.....

"If there be anywhere on earth a lover of God who is always kept safe, I know nothing of it, for it was not shown to me. But this was shown: that in falling and rising again we are always kept in that same precious love."

Just two perspectives to reflect upon.............whatever our path, where-ever we are...........

[wil]

Seems to me for all of us the path sometimes is a dirt track, at others an uphill climb through the jungle using the machete ten times for every step...then we have the wonder of a slide into a pool...and it obliterates completely all that questioning and strife...

then back to the desert....

the higher we climb, the more determined we are as seekers, the more challenges/opportunities for growth arise.