The Love of God

[Cage]

Originally Posted by Silas

Liberal? Whats that?

Bro, NEVER EVER trust your heart - its desperately wicked (Jer. 17:9). How can you know if you are a true Christian? Read the Book of 1John, it gives you the "test." Do you acknowledge that you are a sinner and in need of a Savior? Do you trust in your own goodness? Do you love the world? Do you love Christians? Do you count Christ precious? Do you love the things of the world? Does the world love you? Do you have a desier to preach the gospel? Are you growing in holiness while having more of the evils within you revealed? etc., etc.

I don't trust my own heart, Silas...I trust the Love God puts in it. He deals with the heart of man, the seat of soul, and w/o his Love/Spirit I have nothing in me worthy besides my free will to choose him over lust. I Love the world, which means I Love his creation. I dislike the ways of this world, or the ways of man. Christ is precious, and I try to follow his teachings. I believe my salvation rests in the Spirit he came in. His Life, death, and ressurection assures me that I am on the right path, by embracing the same Spirit that was made manifest in him, but I do not worship [him], which is why some people accuse me of not being a true Christian. This doesn't bother me so much anymore, I'm not here to please others by falling into their beliefs, I'm here to please the father, and do as he wishes me to do, and be who he wishes me to be. I can only be that which he allows me to be, and believe that which he allows me to believe. I stumble, fall, trip over stones, and sometimes get plain knocked in the head by them, but God's Love heals, and I'm able to pick myself back up through it, and move forward at whatever pace I am given the strength to walk in.

Am I a Christian? Yes, in the sense that I try to follow his Spitrit, and serve God by walking in that straight and narrow...


Much Love,

[Silas]

Thanks for your reply Cage. Are you a J. Witness? You sound like me...I trip, fall, etc., too. But, I repent and trust Christ knowing that all of the good works I do is to no avail, but that only Christ is my righteouness. How about you? Is your trust in Christ co-operating with your good deeds, or are you doing good deeds but knowing that it apart from Christ, it is worthless before God? Also you mentioned something about spirit. What do you mean by that?

[Cage]

Originally Posted by Silas

Thanks for your reply Cage. Are you a J. Witness? You sound like me...I trip, fall, etc., too. But, I repent and trust Christ knowing that all of the good works I do is to no avail, but that only Christ is my righteouness. How about you? Is your trust in Christ co-operating with your good deeds, or are you doing good deeds but knowing that it apart from Christ, it is worthless before God? Also you mentioned something about spirit. What do you mean by that?

I'm not JW, nor have I adopted any other label within Christianity. I am fine knowing I follow the footsteps of Jesus, and that I do so by the Holy Spirit. All my works before my acceptance were perhaps in vain, yet if I do any good work now, it is only because of Gods Spirit in me.

About that Spirit...Well, I fully believe God's Spirit is Love my friend. Feel free to disagree, but it has convicted me like nothing else has, and I understand its power, guidence, purity, holiness, and mercy. It can come only from God, and this is what I cling too, along with the knowledge that God is Love, and that this same Spirit was fully manifest in Jesus the Christ. I follow Christ because he did his fathers will, if I am saved [in a perfect after life] because I follow him, then that my friend is a great bonus. If not, then I will die knowing I did my best to serve God, and appreciate what he gave me [in this life].


Much Love,

[moseslmpg]

I thought I did, but OK. How about this, I'll let you come to your own conclussion. How many times does scripture say that Christ died for "many" "his people" "His chruch" "His people from every tounge nation and tribe" vs the times it says that Christ died for the "world" or even "all" people. That may be good a good place to start, I think.

Since when does the number of times something is said count? Let me put it this way: if Christ did not die for everyone, as you seem to be saying, then there are a number of people for whom it is impossible to be saved, because Christ's sacrifice did nothing for them. That is how I understand what you are saying, and perhaps I am misunderstanding.

Oh what AMAZING Love God has Shown to Sinners!! His own Beloved Son whom He fellowshipped with in Eternity past, whom He loves with undying Love, was crushed by Him [God the Father] to save the wickedest of man. Stand in awe of that kind of Love. Its unknown to the world. Eventhough the Bible is clear that God does everything for His own Glory, I cannot deny that He loves people. In fact, I am still in awe of it. I am especially amazed that He would love me!

God hates sinners, right? You acknowledge that you are a sinner, right? Then, presumably God hates you. Or does He love you even though you're a sinner, because you took refuge in Christ? The problem I have is understanding how a being that is love, takes it upon Himself to hate people who don't follow His rules.

God's love isnt based on anything is us, but soley on His own will and good pleasure - its unconditional - He does save because they sinner was good, moral, better that the rest, had faith, etc. Again, its on Him who choose to show mercy. I keep telling you guys, read Romans 9.

If God hates people for any reason, then His love is not unconditional. If God can only love someone after they have repented their sins and come to Christ, then His love is based upon that condition of repentance and coming to Christ.

It was from my Pink notes. Yo, you said that was eisegesis. Whoa! Where do you see that he erred? Read them again and tell me where, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

OK, for instance the second one, and this is a small one. It says kosmos pertains to earth, as in the planet we live on, right? Well, that is obviously reading into it with an understanding that Jesus went to a place that was specifically not Earth, implying that he is in the universe somewhere. Whereas if it is read as world, it means he left this world, plain and simple, i.e. He did not fly off to another planet. You get the point.

I'm not saying that eisegesis in these cases is a bad thing, but in some cases, e.g. John 3:16, it leads people to the wrong conclusions. An exegetical reading of that verse simply states that Jesus died for the world, not for the Jews only, nor solely the Gentiles, but everyone. Thus everyone has the opportunity to come to Christ, because he payed the ransom for everyone.

[Silas]

Originally Posted by Cage

I'm not JW, nor have I adopted any other label within Christianity. I am fine knowing I follow the footsteps of Jesus, and that I do so by the Holy Spirit. All my works before my acceptance were perhaps in vain, yet if I do any good work now, it is only because of Gods Spirit in me.

About that Spirit...Well, I fully believe God's Spirit is Love my friend. Feel free to disagree, but it has convicted me like nothing else has, and I understand its power, guidence, purity, holiness, and mercy. It can come only from God, and this is what I cling too, along with the knowledge that God is Love, and that this same Spirit was fully manifest in Jesus the Christ. I follow Christ because he did his fathers will, if I am saved [in a perfect after life] because I follow him, then that my friend is a great bonus. If not, then I will die knowing I did my best to serve God, and appreciate what he gave me [in this life].
Much Love,

I agree that God is Love and that is the first attribute anyone sees when they are born again? But, God is Trice Holy and His Perfect Love flows from out of His Perfect holiness; as does the rest of His attributes. Let your central interpretative motiff be God's Holiness, rather than love or wrath or mercy or grace, etc., and you'll have a better biblical understand of God, I believe. So whats your undestanding of Jesus? What is His part in Salvation?

[Silas]

Since when does the number of times something is said count? Let me put it this way: if Christ did not die for everyone, as you seem to be saying, then there are a number of people for whom it is impossible to be saved, because Christ's sacrifice did nothing for them. That is how I understand what you are saying, and perhaps I am misunderstanding.

Yes, you are minunderstanding me. Christ' attoning death is more than enough to save ALL men indivisually, but was only designed to save those the Father has given to the Son from out of the whole world. If Christ died to save all, all would be in Heaven, since God always accomplishes what He wills to do (Job 23:13). If Jesus paid the price for sin (and He did) and justify men before God (and He did) then those in Hell are being charged with double jeopardy.The problem with those who opt for free will is they limit the atonment the wrong way. They suppose that Christ only died to provide the gift of Salvation, where as the Bible makes it clear that He died to secure or guarantee, salvation.

God hates sinners, right? You acknowledge that you are a sinner, right? Then, presumably God hates you. Or does He love you even though you're a sinner, because you took refuge in Christ? The problem I have is understanding how a being that is love, takes it upon Himself to hate people who don't follow His rules.

You suppose that Love governs God, thats where you err. God is Thrice Holy. God swares by His holiness, never his love. God saves for the Sake of His own holy name and glory first - always, before any other attribute. So yes, God DOES Love the world with an amazing Love (gets more amazing once you understand His Holiness), but He's not governed by His love. Dont suppose that God is in Heaven crying and hoping that people come to Christ. He knows His sheep. He's forknown His Sheep. And, He foreordained His sheep. God is happy!


If God hates people for any reason, then His love is not unconditional.

Where does the Bible say His Love is unconditional?

If God can only love someone after they have repented their sins and come to Christ, then His love is based upon that condition of repentance and coming to Christ.

Amen. Prior to coming to Christ people are called "children of wrath" and "enemies of God" in scripture. But to those who have recieved Christ, scripture calls them "children of God."

OK, for instance the second one, and this is a small one. It says kosmos pertains to earth, as in the planet we live on, right? Well, that is obviously reading into it with an understanding that Jesus went to a place that was specifically not Earth, implying that he is in the universe somewhere. Whereas if it is read as world, it means he left this world, plain and simple, i.e. He did not fly off to another planet. You get the point.

You might want to read that again bro. Here, I'll qoute it. Check out all the different translation to get a clearer picture if you want. Its clear that in context "komos" is refering to the universe. Acts 17: 24...The God who made the world and everything in it, who is Lord of heaven and earth." Note that God has made the "world" and "everything" in it. Thats everything - the whole universe.

I'm not saying that eisegesis in these cases is a bad thing, but in some cases, e.g. John 3:16, it leads people to the wrong conclusions. An exegetical reading of that verse simply states that Jesus died for the world, not for the Jews only, nor solely the Gentiles, but everyone. Thus everyone has the opportunity to come to Christ, because he payed the ransom for everyone.

Thats not in the text. Whats in the text is that "everyone who believe has eternal life," everyone who doesnt believe is 'already' condemned," and "God sent His Son for 'those who beleive' that they may have eternal life." Those who opt for free will choice are not only the ones eisegiting (unknowingly), but are also arguing from a wrong premis - namely, that Jesus only "offers salvation" rather than actually guaranteeing it and justifying men before the Father. They have a weak gospel and one that really isnt good news. It says to men..."Hey, I know you love sin and will choose what is in your nature to choose (sin and not God), but Im sending Jesus to die for you anyway. And, if you could muster enough willingness to will against what you love, namely sin, you can have your sins forgiven." Thats a very tough task bro. Actually, its impossible. Jesus said we can do NOTHING without being in Him. How are sinners who arent in Him going to do something when we in Him cant? The Free will argument makes zero sense. Its only argued from an emotional stand point and from a very of a very human god.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by Silas

I agree that God is Love and that is the first attribute anyone sees when they are born again? But, God is Trice Holy and His Perfect Love flows from out of His Perfect holiness; as does the rest of His attributes. Let your central interpretative motiff be God's Holiness, rather than love or wrath or mercy or grace, etc., and you'll have a better biblical understand of God, I believe. So whats your undestanding of Jesus? What is His part in Salvation?

I could never comprhend God's fullness, so I'll focus on his spirit until I come to further understanding, or when God reveals it to me. It's not for me to focus on what he might and might not do, and who he might accept. I'm content enough knowing that he Loves and wants mankind to embrace his Love. I have a narrow view, but straight is the gate and narrow the path that leads to life. Love leads to life and that is what I choose. Jesus leads us into God's Love, and keeps us if we so choose to stay, and that is his part in salvation for me.


What does holy mean to you, silas?

[Silas]

Originally Posted by Cage

I could never comprhend God's fullness, so I'll focus on his spirit until I come to further understanding, or when God reveals it to me. It's not for me to focus on what he might and might not do, and who he might accept. I'm content enough knowing that he Loves and wants mankind to embrace his Love. I have a narrow view, but straight is the gate and narrow the path that leads to life. Love leads to life and that is what I choose. Jesus leads us into God's Love, and keeps us if we so choose to stay, and that is his part in salvation for me.


What does holy mean to you, silas?

Holy means Perfect, Pure, set apart, etc. God is Holy, its who He is and where all of His other attributes flow From. His wrath, for example, flows out of His Holy Hatred for sin. The fact that God loves sinners (the objects of His wrath) is amazing and testifies to His mercy and grace. You keep talking about Jesus and love without the cross. Why is it you keep leaving out that Jesus saved us from God who so hates sin that He burns to express His wrath on it. God hates sin more than you hate the thing that is most destestable to you. Jesus went to the cross and bore in His body the Sins of His people. Thats where the love was shown. How is it you dont speak about that?

[Cage]

The cross offends me, and I think his life was/is more significant than his brutal death. I choose to see his life, his ways, his Spirit, and I look away from the cross because it was something very unholy to happen to such a holy man. I'll hold on to his life, follow, and accept that we killed him because of the sin in our hearts, but for the moment, I'll go no further than that. I cherish his life, what he gave me, his Spirit, and his ways. I will follow, and let the real Chrstians keep the wickedness and violence of the cross, as it means a great deal to you.

I am more liberal, and I like it that way; it just suits me. I've been fed traditional Christians views all my life, and they won't stick, so let that be, Silas, and accept that I accept Jesus for his life, and follow him because I see his worthiness to be followed.

When and if I ever get babtized, it will be in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I will accept Jesus life for leading me, and accept the Spirit for its further guidence and grace, and I will accept the father for giving me both for my benefit. Fair enough?



Much Love,

[Silas]

The cross offends me, and I think his life was/is more significant than his brutal death.

Oh. Thats what you meant by liberal view. OK.

I choose to see his life, his ways, his Spirit, and I look away from the cross because it was something very unholy to happen to such a holy man.

It happened because He was saving people from God's wrath. All Christian in the Bible as well as throughout the years have loved what the cross stood for, since it is reperesents what occured to save us.

I'll hold on to his life, follow, and accept that we killed him because of the sin in our hearts, but for the moment, I'll go no further than that.

God the Father killed Him (Isa. 53) and you could never follow Jesus' example, you're infinitely far away then He is - thats why He suffered agony and death. Trust in Him alone and repent of your good works, else you trip over your own righteouness. Read Romans 3.

I cherish his life, what he gave me, his Spirit, and his ways. I will follow, and let the real Chrstians keep the wickedness and violence of the cross, as it means a great deal to you.

We Christians glory over Chris' perfect life, but we never forget the cross. How could we? "As for me, God forbid that I should boast about anything except the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ. Because of that cross, my interest in this world died long ago, and the world's interest in me is also long dead" (Galatians 6:14)."

I am more liberal, and I like it that way; it just suits me. I've been fed traditional Christians views all my life, and they won't stick, so let that be, Silas, and accept that I accept Jesus for his life, and follow him because I see his worthiness to be followed.

Thats fine. Know however, that you have another gospel and that the Jesus of the Bible doest accept you if you havent see your sins and great need for His sacrifice. To mock is suffering and sacrifical death is to be rejected by God.

When and if I ever get babtized, it will be in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Why?

I will accept Jesus life for leading me, and accept the Spirit for its further guidence and grace, and I will accept the father for giving me both for my benefit. Fair enough?

You dont accept things from God, you recieve it. What is man that he could "accept" God and things from God. You're guilty of breaking God's laws, He has to accept you. He will if you come through the right Christ.

[Cage]

I follow the same Christ you serve, and I would never mock the cross. I have recieved god's Love/Spirit, and I have accepted and embraced it. I have accepted Christ as a master, leader, even savior, but I follow his life, and I know I am on the right path. I feel it, believe it, I have peace within, and I am thankful. You have your path of worship, and I have my path of following. Don't assume I have less than you, or that God recieves me less because I find the cross' brutality offensive.

You're are free to express your views, but do not claim you have the only right way of viewing and following Christ, bro. I don't deny what happened on the cross, I merely stick to his life and Spirit. I accept your path to be just as worthy as my own, and I respect our differences. Pleas have the same respect for me, Silas.


Much Love,

[Silas]

I follow the same Christ you serve, and I would never mock the cross. I have recieved god's Love/Spirit, and I have accepted and embraced it. I have accepted Christ as a master, leader, even savior, but I follow his life, and I know I am on the right path.

Good. Follow Christ' life and know that the only reason you can do good is by God's grace and that apart from Christ your good works are filty. Knowing this, love and trust in Christ all the more because apart from Him along, you like myself, are God's worst enemies.

I feel it, believe it, I have peace within, and I am thankful.

Dont go by feel or emotions. Our emotions, feelings, heart, and mind are all sinful. We feel things we should not and we desire things we shouldnt. THis should testify to the depravity of the heart. Trust alone in Christ and judge yourself by the word of God, the Bible.

You have your path of worship, and I have my path of following. Don't assume I have less than you, or that God recieves me less because I find the cross' brutality offensive.

I am no worse than any sinner. In fact, I feel at times that I'm worse. But thats another story. Hug the cross homey! Boast in NOTHING else but it. Its because of the cross (what it stands for) that we have a right standing with the Thrice Holy God who is angry at sinners every day (Psa. something - I forget).

You're are free to express your views, but do not claim you have the only right way of viewing and following Christ, bro.

I dont. I only reitterate what the Bible says. Apart from those words Im slient.

I don't deny what happened on the cross, I merely stick to his life and Spirit. I accept your path to be just as worthy as my own, and I respect our differences. Pleas have the same respect for me, Silas.

Sorry homey. Im called to adhere to the Bible. I dont mean to be disrespectful or intolerant, but I gotta follow my master. If He was hated for telling the truth, then I cant be surprise if I recieve the same consequence for telling what He said. "If Christ preached the same messasge of "love" that most of these preachers, especially tv preachers preached today, He would have never been crusified." -- Lenord Ravenhill.

[wil]

Namaste Silas,

Please to remember while you say you mistakenly put started this thread in Abrahamic...the fact is this is where it is. So in this area we discuss theology and respect all of Christianity AND Judaism AND Islam....which means it is not my way or the highway and we do not inform others that they are mistaken from the aspect of our form of Christianity...

One of a few things start happening here when someone continues to berate others...

a. many folks just start ignoring threads or posts which you respond to.

b. you may find your niche of well wishers and happily preach to the choir.

c. one with the power to do so pulls the plug and you have to go back to the soap box on the street corner with the megaphone.

It is all your choice my brother, we are in someone elses house, we play by their rules.

[moseslmpg]

OK Silas, I guess you understand things your way. Out of curiosity, do you not believe that humans have free will? I remember you asked about this before.

[Silas]

Yes Moseslmpg, I do believe people have free will. They freely choose to love sin and hate God, love darkeness over light, do good deeds apart from Christ and not deny self and follow after Jesus.