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#1 (permalink) | ||||
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Executive Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Trans-Himalayas
Posts: 762
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The Leadbeater Question
Dear All,
I once knew a member of the TS Pasadena group who always warned about Leadbeater but never told me the full story. Now of course the cat is out of the bag. Here is the quote from Gregory Tillett's book The Elder Brother: Certain charges had been made against Leadbeater. Quote:
Quote:
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Br.Bruce |
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#5 (permalink) |
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Soul Rebel
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: The Highlands of Scotland
Posts: 4,604
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Re: The Leadbeater Question
Claims that Leadbeater was a suspected paedophile have certainly come up in coverage I've read on Kirshnamurti:
http://www.comparative-religion.com/...ishnamurti.php |
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#6 (permalink) |
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Executive Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Westmorland, California
Posts: 762
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~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~
Leadbeater certainly had a murky personal life, and some of his religious ideas were downright goofy. However, some of his writings were great, for example, his explanation of the differences between Nirmanakaya, Sambhogakaya, and Dharmakaya is the best I have ever written.
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#7 (permalink) |
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Executive Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Trans-Himalayas
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Re: The Leadbeater Question
Dear Brgruagach,
The point is accurate historical research. When Gregory Tillett's book first came out some theosophical bookshops wouldn't carry it- it was the first biography of Leadbeater. And he was hampered in his research by some who didn't want the critical material about Leadbeater to get out. Some of that material to this date has still not seen the light of day. All this inspired Lesley Price to begin the Theosophical History project. So that is another good thing that came out of it. Leadbeater's books were easy read- Tillet explains how Leadbeater developed his style. Of course some folk like to keep their head firmly in the sand. But I say thank God for the Michaelic light which shines bright on all questions. There are different degrees of clairvoyancy and different means of attainment. The occultist does well to study these things. BTW Leadbeater did cause a split in TS ranks for a variety of reasons- pedophilia was just one of them. This resulted in the "Back to Blavatsky Movement" evident in the Pasadena based group and the ULT. Greetings, Br.Bruce |
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#8 (permalink) |
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ex-member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 641
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Re: The Leadbeater Question
You know, the funny thing about other people's mistakes (and ours) ... sins of omission and commission, Br Bruce ... is that once the sin is there, we can't do a thing in the world to remove those sins from "the record," as it were.
![]() A Christian might say, only God can do that. And an esotericist would probably say, nope, the Lipika now "have it on file," and the Soul in question must work with Them to set right his or her wrongs. But there is something we can do to help the Soul involved. We can send them Light, and Love, and we can remember to forgive, just as Our Father Who art in Heaven forgives us. Yes, when we transgress we transgress against the entirety of the Human Family, as well as God. But the ability - in fact the imperative and the Right Responsibility to forgive - is part of what we're here to learn, and to practice (practice makes Perfect). What I question, is what motive we might have, when we set out to show the wrongs of others, or point out "where they strayed from the beaten path." ![]() And sometimes, even when we mean the best, for all our good intention, we only do further injury - to the very Soul we might wish to help ... if we harp upon that person's supposed errors, or if we beat a dead horse. ![]() I would advise you, Br Bruce, to do a little research on Vajroli Mudra ... and consider that, in fact, Leadbeater may have been teaching an esoteric practice which will one day be part & parcel of "growing up" - when society finally matures to the point that sex (and all associated matters) can become part of White Magic, and not black, or gray magic. What we DO know for certain, to quote from an introductory article on the Esoteric Philosophy (found here), is that "Leadbeater’s action led to so much controversy that he was forced to leave the Theosophical Movement," and that "He certainly paid dearly for teaching something what could not be taught publicly at that time." It should also be considered that on Henry Steele Olcott's deathbed, he was told by the Masters (presumably his own, and/or the Trans-Himalayan Mahatmas sponsoring the TS, including KH, M, et al) that he had been too hard on Leadbeater (regarding the "scandal," the questionable teachings which are really the topic of this thread). Olcott addressed a letter of apology to Leadbeater, wherein he begged him to stop the teachings which the Masters considered wrong - because they "offended the standard of ideas of the majority of the members of the Society [TS]," yet in this letter Olcott also mentioned that "Leadbeater's help in the work would soon be needed again." (from Krishnamurti: The Years of Awakening, by Mary Lutyens) And to take MY POINT one step further ... although I have searched, I cannot find an online reference, yet I am almost certain that I recall reading another deathbed visit - from the Mahatmas to a Theosophical Society President, this time Annie Besant. If memory serves, she was deeply concerned for Leadbeater's esoteric standing (future, karma, etc.), due to the "scandal" ... and also regarding Krishnamurti and the Order of the Star. I do not remember the exact quote, but what the Masters indicated to Annie Besant, was essentially that CWL had certainly erred, but that his contribution to the Work was incalculable (or inestimable), and that he should not be judged too harshly. And this, Brother Bruce, is what I am getting at. For as ye judge ... ![]() Namaskar, ~Andrew |
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#9 (permalink) |
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Executive Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Trans-Himalayas
Posts: 762
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Re: ~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~
>However, some of his writings were great, for example, his explanation of the >differences between Nirmanakaya, Sambhogakaya, and Dharmakaya is the >best I have ever written.
Hmmm were you channeling him Nick? ![]() |
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#10 (permalink) |
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Executive Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Westmorland, California
Posts: 762
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~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~
"Hmmm were you channeling him Nick?"--> Totally. By the way, how do you see the differences between Nirmanakaya, Sambhogakaya, and Dharmakaya? |
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#11 (permalink) | |
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Executive Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Trans-Himalayas
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Re: ~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~
Quote:
I don't have a particular teaching on it, Nick. I just have some short explanations by G.R.S Mead: Those three vestures- the Buddhic robes are described in the Voice of the Silence pp. 96,97. " Quote: Very little is publicly known of these transcendent Vestures, even by the Buddhists themselves, so that the accounts we have in books of various Oriental scholars are contradictory and misleading." The highest vesture is the Body of the Law Dharma-kaya. If this Vesture is assumed every possible connection with the earth is at an end, and therefore the Buddhas of Compassion lay it aside that they may still remain and work for humanity. -G.R.S Mead, The World Mystery. |
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#12 (permalink) |
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Executive Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Westmorland, California
Posts: 762
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~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~
Bruce,
One of the problems of studying the three Buddhist Vestures is that no one has any information on them. When we research the three terms, all we get is, "There are three vestures, and Sambhogakaya is one of them," which is no help at all. Leadbeater says Dharmakaya and Sambhogakaya are two different levels of consciousness (perhaps it would be better to say they are two different Offices that can be held in the Hierarchy, at two different levels of consciousness). According to Theosophy, there are seven levels of consciousness in the universe, with sub-levels within the seven main levels. There are, we are told, Buddhas who manage affairs at each level, and Dharmakaya and Sambhogakaya seem to be names of Offices of Buddhas at two different levels of consciousness in the Hierarchy. (I am, of course, using the Mahayana, not Theravada, definition of Buddha.) Nirmanakaya can be described as an Office at the Astral Level. Leadbeater says attaining the Dharmakaya vesture means becoming conscious at the level above the Nirvanic Level of Consciousness, while attaining the Sambhogakaya Vesture means becoming conscious at the Nirvanic Level of Consciousnes. This is rather surprising to me, as I would have thought both of them would be at lower levels. Be that as it may, I think Leadbeater got it right when he says Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya, and Nirmanakaya are names of Offices in the Hierarchy, each one higher than the other. |
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#13 (permalink) |
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ex-member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 641
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Re: The Leadbeater Question
The entry in Purucker's Encyclopedic Theosophical Glossary doesn't help much, but here it is:
Dharmakaya (Sanskrit) [from dharma law, continuance from the verbal root dhri to support, carry, continue + kaya body] Continuance-body, body of the law. One of the trikaya of Buddhism, which consists of 1) nirmanakaya, 2) sambhogakaya, and 3) dharmakaya. "It is that spiritual body or state of a high spiritual being in which the restricted sense of soulship and egoity has vanished into a universal (hierarchical) sense, and remains only in the seed, latent -- if even so much. It is pure consciousness, pure bliss, pure intelligence, freed from all personalizing thought" (OG 38). In the dharmakaya vesture the initiate is on the threshold of nirvana or in the nirvanic state. Sometimes the dharmakaya is called the "nirvana without remains," for once having reached that state the buddha or bodhisattva remains entirely outside of every earthly condition; he will return no more until the commencement of a new manvantara, for he has crossed the cycle of births. Dharmakaya state is that of parasamadhi, where no progress is possible -- at least as long as the entity remains in it. Such entities may be said to be for the time being crystallized in purity and homogeneity. This is, likewise, one of the states of adi-buddha, and as such is called the mystic, universally diffused essence, the robe or vesture of luminous spirituality |
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#14 (permalink) |
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Executive Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Trans-Himalayas
Posts: 762
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Re: The Leadbeater Question
Howdy Sir Andrew,
> ... is that once the sin is there, we can't do a thing in the world to >remove those sins from "the record," as it were. ![]() They're there on the record- in Charlie's case the public record. We have karma- you know that. Everyone can fall- no one is immune from failure. Steiner informs me that Leadbeater's behaviour was a result of the spiritual path he had taken. >I would advise you, Br Bruce, to do a little research on Vajroli Mudra ... >and consider that, in fact, Leadbeater may have been teaching an >esoteric practice which will one day be part & parcel of "growing up" On the contrary, those practices are "old school" of the past. Best to keep 'em in the past. They are no longer the correct path- no longer safe. Besides the way of development these days should be "top down". If you haven't mastered the virtues of the higher chakras- I mean as far as the heart - don't mess with the lower. > when society finally matures to the point that sex (and all associated >matters) can become part of White Magic, and not black, or gray magic. There was nothing White Magic in what Charlie was doing. >"Leadbeater’s action led to so much controversy that he was forced to leave the Theosophical Movement," and that "He certainly paid dearly for >teaching something what could not be taught publicly at that time." I don't believe he was ever expelled from the Society. We never reward or encourage bad behaviour. Often duty calls for explicit intervention, whereby one soul must actively discourage or reprimand another for his presumption of license which oversteps another's freedom. But inwardly we should not give over to responses of complete rejection to situations or to people, and by so doing so commit them with abusive judgement. For no one is fixed in their current predicament, and no thing is completely perceived in its entirety. -The Whole Truth & Nothing but the Truth >And this, Brother Bruce, is what I am getting at. For as ye judge ... ![]() In occult matters we must ensure our moral behaviour is on a higher level. For in occult development everything is brought into sharp contrast. The temptations are increased. Heartily, Br.Bruce This can be a simple matter and yet why are there those who are content to overlook those things which do not correspond with true spirituality and expression? They do overlook very bad behaviour indeed!: excuse it graciously, as if one area of development will make good for the rest. It will not. If a man is so full of conceit as to believe that he need not review his soul, nor those of whom he trusts as teacher, then he shall not heed the warnings of his protective and suffering conscience. Esoteric teachers, we might add, are obliged to be reviewed critically for the sake of their beloved pupil, who is a part of their influence for the time that they give to them. Whether recognised or not they are accountable in every degree. -The Brothers |
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