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Old 11-10-2004, 03:14 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Re: The law of the two or three witnesses.

On the author of 1 Peter and 2 Peter, this should come as no surprise, but "Peter" the apostle ("Simon Peter") doubtfully wrote either of them.

On 1 Peter:

Despite 1 Pet 1:1, the author is unlikely to have been the apostle Peter. The cultured Greek of the epistle makes it perhaps the most literary composition in the NT. The apostle Peter probably knew some Greek, but 1 Peter does not look like the product of an unlettered (Acts 4:13) Galilean fisherman. It employs a sophisticated vocabulary incorporating several NT hapax legomena, and its author appears to have some command of the techniques of Hellenistic rhetoric. He is also intimately acquainted with the OT in the LXX, whereas we should have expected the Galilean Peter to have been more familiar with an Aramaic Targum or the Hebrew." (The Oxford Bible Commentary, p. 1263)

And as W. G. Kümmel writes in his "Introduction to the New Testament":

I Pet presupposes the Pauline theology. This is true not only in the general sense that the Jewish-Christian readers, the 'people of God' (2:10), are no longer concerned about the problem of the fulfillment of the Law, but also in the special sense that, as in Paul, the death of Jesus has atoned for the sins of Christians and has accomplished justification (1:18 f; 2:24). Christians are to suffer with Christ (4:13; 5:1), obedience to the civil authorities is demanded (2:14 f), and the Pauline formula en xristw is encountered (3:16; 5:10, 14). The frequently advanced proposal that I Pet is literarily dependent on Rom (and Eph) is improbable because the linguistic contacts can be explained on the basis of a common catechetical tradition. But there can be no doubt that the author of I Pet stands in the line of succession of Pauline theology, and that is scarcely conceivable for Peter, who at the time of Gal 2:11 was able in only a very unsure way to follow the Pauline basic principle of freedom from the Law for Gentile Christians.

On 2 Peter, Kümmel offers numerous reasons why it is doubtfully a genuine letter of Simon Peter:

1. The literary dependence on Jude rules this out. II Pet 1 and 3 already have a number of contacts with Jude: cf. II Pet 1:5 with Jude 3; II Pet 1:12 with Jude 5; II Pet 3:2 f with Jude 17 f; II Pet 3:14 with Jude 24; II Pet 3:18 with Jude 25. The most striking agreements with Jude are shown in the portrayal of the false teachers in II Pet 2 and also in the illustrations based on the OT and the pictures drawn from nature, agreements in the exact wording and extensive agreements in sequence. The false teachers deny the Lord Christ and lead a dissolute life (II Pet 2:1 f = Jude 4), they despise and blaspheme the good angelic powers (II Pet 2:10 f = Jude 8 f), they speak in high-handed fashion (uperogka; II Pet 2:18 = Jude 16), they are blotches on the communal meal (spigoi suneuwcwmenoi; II Pet 2:13 = Jude 12), they are clouds tossed about by the wind, devoid of water, for whom the gloom of darkness is reserved (II Pet 2:17 = Jude 12 f), they are denounced for their fleshly corruption and their unrestrained mode of life (II Pet 2:10, 12 ff, 18 = Jude 7 f, 10, 12, 16). The sequence of examples of punishment from the OT in Jude 5 ff (Israel in the desert, fallen angels, Sodom and Gomorrah) is arranged in historical order in II Pet 2:4 ff and modified (fallen angels, Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah) because the author of II Pet needs the example of the Flood to combat the deniers of the parousia. The general statement in II Pet 2:11 makes sense only if note has been made of the concrete example mentioned in Jude 9. The image in Jude 12 f is more genuine and more plastic than the parallel in II Pet 2:17.

This material shows, therefore, that it is II Pet which is the dependent factor. It is further to be observed that the quotation from a noncanonical writing (Jude 14 f = the Apocalypse of Enoch 1:9; 60:8) is lacking in II Pet, and that by omitting certain essential features the allusions to the apocryphal writings have been somewhat obscured in Jude 6 (fallen angels) and 9 (the struggle between the archangel Michael and the Devil). From this it may be concluded that II Pet is already reluctant to use this literature whereas Jude has a naive attitude toward it. II Pet betrays a literary strategem in that the false teachers who are characterized by Jude as being in the present are depicted in II Pet as future and indeed predicted by Peter (2:1 ff, in the future; 3:3, 17 proginwskontes). But in spite of this they are also described in the present tense (2:10, 12 ff, 20), and indeed the past tense is used (2:15, 22). Consequently it is almost universally recognized today that II Pet is dependent on Jude and not the reverse. Then II Pet 3:3 ff portrays the libertines as the deniers of the parousia. In this way he representes a more developed stage, while a less developed stage is evident in Jude, who does not yet know that the false teachers against whom he directs his attention might have denied the parousia. Since Jude belongs in the postapostolic age, Peter cannot have written II Pet.

2.The conceptual world and the rhetorical language are so strongly influenced by Hellenism as to rule out Peter definitely, nor could it have been written by one of his helpers or pupils under instructions from Peter. Not even at some time after the death of the apostle. The Hellenistic concepts include: the areth of God (1:3), virtue in addition to faith (1:5); knowledge (1:2, 3, 6, 8; 2:20; 3:18); participation in the divine nature (qeias koinwnoi fusews) "in order that one might escape corruption that is present in the world because of lust" (1:4); the term epoptai comes from the language of the mysteries (1:16); placed side by side are a quotation from Proverbs and a trite saying from the Hellenistic tradition (2:22).

3. The letter has a keen interest in opposing the denial of the Christians' expectation of the parousia. 1:12 ff already deals with the hope of the parousia, which is based on the fact of the transfiguration of Jesus and the OT prophecy. In 3:3 ff there is a direct polemic against those who deny the parousia. These ask scornfully, "Where is the promise of the parousia of Christ?" and draw attention to the fact that since the fathers have fallen asleep everything remains as it has been from the beginning of creation (3:4). In I Clem 23:3 f and II Clem 11:2 ff too, there is adduced a writing which was obviously read in Christian circles, in which is laid down the challenge "We have already heard that in the days of our fathers, but look, we are become old and nothing of that has happened to us." I Clem was written ca. 95, and II Clem can hardly have been written earlier than 150. We have, therefore, historical evidence from the end of the first century onward for the disdainful skepticism which is expressed in II Pet 3:3 ff. But it is the Gnostics of the second century who have opposed the parousia and reinterpreted it along spiritualistic lines. It is probably also they who are meant by the proclaimers of the "clever myths" (1:16) and of "knowledge" (see point 2). Characteristic of them are the libertinism and the insolent disrespect for spirit powers (see point 1). II Pet is therefore aimed against a movement which bears the essential features of second-century gnosis. A more exact determination is not possible, however.

4. Also indicative of the second century is the appeal to a collection of Pauline letters from which "statements that are hard to understand" have been misinterpreted by the false teachers, and to further normative writings which inlcude not only the OT but also the developing NT (3:16). In view of the difficulty in understanding "scripture," and its ambiguity, II Pet offers the thesis that "no prophetic scripture allows an individual interpretation" because men have spoken under the power of the Holy Spirit (1:20 f). Since not every Christian has the Spirit, the explanation of Scripture is reserved for the ecclesiastical teaching office. Accordingly we find ourselves without doubt far beyond the time of Peter and into the epoch of "early Catholocism."

It is certain, therefore, that II Pet does not originate with Peter, and this is today widely acknowledged. This point of view can be confirmed through two further facts.

5. As in the case of the Pastorals, the pseudonymity in II Pet is carried through consistently by means of heavy stress on the Petrine authorship (see above, p. 430). The auther adduces his authority not only on the basis of the fiction of a "testament of Peter" but also by reference back to I Pet in 3:1 f, intending II Pet only to "recall" (1:12, 15; 3:1 f) what was said in I Pet to the extent that it corresponds to the interpretation which the author of II Pet wants to give to I Pet. This appeal to the apostolic authority of Peter and his letter is obviously occasioned by the sharpening of the Gnostic false teaching which is being combated in Jdue, as a result of a consistent denial of the parousia of the false teachers. In this way, the apostle has become the "guarantor of the tradition" (1:12 f), and as a consequence of the abandonment of the near expectation (3:8) the parousia is stripped of its christological character and functions as an anthropologically oriented doctrine of rewards. In its consistent quality the pseudonymity betrays the late origins of II Pet.

6. In spite of its heavy stress on Petrine authorship, II Pet is nowhwere mentioned in the second century. The apologists, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Cyprian, Clement of Alexandria, and the Muratorian Canon are completely silent about it. Its first attestation is in Origen, but according to him the letter is contested (amfiballetai). Eusebius lists it among the antilegomena. . . Even down to the fourth century II Pet was largely unknown or not recognized as canonical.

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Old 11-11-2004, 01:21 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Re: The law of the two or three witnesses.

First I’d like to say this



Gal 1:12

For neither did I receive it of man, nor did I learn it; but by the revelation of Jesus Christ



In Acts 9:1-8 Paul receives a revelation from Christ so would you agree that what he did on the road to Damascus is mentioned in both?





Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfgangvonUSA

Gal 1:16To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Gal 1:17Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.



According to Paul's story in Galatians, he did not wait for 'some time' but went immediately to Arabia (Edom).




I’ll give it to you it does appear at first glance that he is saying that he didn’t go to Damascus however if you look carefully it says in Verse 17 “returned again unto Damascus” this implies that Paul went to Arabia from Damascus because if he wasn’t there he couldn’t return. This doesn’t contradict Acts because the trip to Arabia could easily be included in the some time.





Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfgangvonUSA

As to throwing out all those NT books, you are engaging in hyperbole, throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Just because the 'gospel of Luke' was built upon the gospel of Mark does not mean Mark is false, and just because some books were not written by their namesake does not necessarily mean they have no value.




Now I realize I'm "throwing out the baby with the bathwater" as you say but you seem to throw out anything with a connection to Paul so I simply was as well. Although you say that it isn't important if it was written by its name sake it only seems to apply to you when that person doesn't support Paul. May I ask you if I shoot down all of your alleged contradictions will you ever accept Acts as truth? Because if you do then Paul has his two witnesses and thus can be considered valid. It’s just a question because it seems to me that even if you can’t show any contradictions you still won’t believe that Acts is valid because you don’t want to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfgangvonUSA



I hope you are also aware that the longer ending of Mark (16:9-20) was added during the 4th century AD, and this therefore tends to discredit the Pauline phenomena of 'speaking in tongues' and drinking poison and handling vipers as a sign of faith.




Actually Paul didn’t hold snakes as a sign of faith that is a new development nor did he just drink poison. Now the Tongues thing is (disregarding the part in Mark of course) only found in the writings of Luke and Paul but this doesn’t discredit it. It simply shows that in the fourth century Paul was considered an early leader. If anything it accredits him.



Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfgangvonUSA



Finally, please realize that Jesus accomplished his mission without once quoting the words found in Paul's epistles or Luke's Acts. If He could do without Paul or Luke, we can certainly manage without them as well.


Actually Jesus didn’t accomplish his initial mission. If you ready Matthew 21:33-46 you see that Jesus was originally supposed to cause the Jewish People to repent. Because the Householder in the parable is God. The Husbandmen are the Jews. The servants are the Prophets and obviously the son of the householder is Jesus. So Jesus came to make the Jewish people bare fruit. Thus he didn’t accomplish it. However if you are referring to Jesus’ Mission of dieing on the cross he only needed to quote enough to anger the Pharisees this wouldn’t require much. Also by this logic we might as well say if Moses could do well with out Ezekiel then we don’t need that book. This is what the Samaritan’s problem was. Unfortunately for both arguments one was written after the other lived. The writings of Paul and Luke give us an insight into the early church and the life of Christ. They don’t contradict anything in the gospels and they don’t add much if anything.



Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfgangvonUSA



By the way, what did Paul say that was so important that you cling to him so much?



Wolfgang


Well Jesus used Paul to spread Christianity more than most other men of his time. He also wrote some of the oldest Christian writing left in the world. Which is what he did that causes me to cling to him. What else did he do? His works converted St. Augustine and thousands more that is another reason why I cling to him. Since Paul has traditionally been considered an early father and to have inspired works I think the more important question is why you do want to get rid of him? You claim that he was a liar who corrupted Christianity but your only evidence is misunderstood quotes that are completely out of context. SO really you have no reason to believe this other than you want to. Now I realize that the meanings of Paul’s writings have been corrupted over the past few hundred years but that doesn’t mean you throw out Paul. It means you throw out the misinterpretations. Likewise if I said that Plato’s quoting of Socrates claimed that Socrates didn’t think that you where a good person unless you where executed what would you do? Would you throw away Plato or my interpretation? I hope you respond the later. In the same way if the reformers miss interpreted Paul you don’t throw out Paul you throw out the interpretations.
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Old 11-23-2004, 02:25 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Re: The law of the two or three witnesses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJM
First I’d like to say this



Gal 1:12

For neither did I receive it of man, nor did I learn it; but by the revelation of Jesus Christ



In Acts 9:1-8 Paul receives a revelation from Christ so would you agree that what he did on the road to Damascus is mentioned in both?


Paul is merely claiming that Jesus spoke to him, but he is not proving it by producing witnesses. Paul was an admitted murderer and a Pharisee. Why would anybody trust the word of anybody with such credentials?

People in mental hospitals also claim to have visons. Do you believe them too?









Quote:
Originally Posted by JJM
I’ll give it to you it does appear at first glance that he is saying that he didn’t go to Damascus however if you look carefully it says in Verse 17 “returned again unto Damascus” this implies that Paul went to Arabia from Damascus because if he wasn’t there he couldn’t return. This doesn’t contradict Acts because the trip to
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJM
Arabia could easily be included in the some time.


I never said that he didn't originally go to Damascus. I said that Luke has him going first to Jerusalem (from Damascus) whereas in Galatians he claims to depart Damascus to go first to Arabia (probably to Edom), not to Jerusalem!









Quote:
Originally Posted by JJM
Now I realize I'm "throwing out the baby with the bathwater" as you say but you seem to throw out anything with a connection to Paul so I simply was as well. Although you say that it isn't important if it was written by its name sake it only seems to apply to you when that person doesn't support Paul. May I ask you if I shoot down all of your alleged contradictions will you ever accept Acts as truth? Because if you do then Paul has his two witnesses and thus can be considered valid. It’s just a question because it seems to me that even if you can’t show any contradictions you still won’t believe that Acts is valid because you don’t want to.both?


Acts contradicts itself and Acts contradicts Galatians. Both cannot be true if they contradict the other.





Quote:
Originally Posted by JJM
Actually Paul didn’t hold snakes as a sign of faith that is a new development nor did he just drink poison. Now the Tongues thing is (disregarding the part in Mark of course) only found in the writings of Luke and Paul but this doesn’t discredit it. It simply shows that in the fourth century Paul was considered an early leader. If anything it accredits him.both?


It just shows that in the 4th century Pauline operatives were attempting to spin the bible to serve their own agenda. The longer ending of Mark is contained in double brackets and is therefore not considered to be a part of the original text, and it is therefore a forgery.





Quote:
Originally Posted by JJM
Actually Jesus didn’t accomplish his initial mission. If you ready Matthew
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJM
21:33-46 you see that Jesus was originally supposed to cause the Jewish People to repent. Because the Householder in the parable is God. The Husbandmen are the Jews. The servants are the Prophets and obviously the son of the householder is Jesus. So Jesus came to make the Jewish people bare fruit. Thus he didn’t accomplish it. However if you are referring to Jesus’ Mission of dieing on the cross he only needed to quote enough to anger the Pharisees this wouldn’t require much. Also by this logic we might as well say if Moses could do well with out Ezekiel then we don’t need that book. This is what the Samaritan’s problem was. Unfortunately for both arguments one was written after the other lived. The writings of Paul and Luke give us an insight into the early church and the life of Christ. They don’t contradict anything in the gospels and they don’t add much if anything.both?


Jesus came to save what was lost.
What had been lost? Israel.
That's why He told the apostles to go only to the lost tribes of Israel and to ignore the Samaritans and the Gentiles.
The "Jews" who rejected and killed him in Jerusalem were largely Herodian Idumeans or Edomites, sons of Esau rather than Jacob or Judah. They were not real "Jews" as a real "Jews" are properly defined as sons of Judah. "Judahites" is the most accurate term to refer to them. "Judeans" on the other hand could be just any ethnic group that happened to live in Judea, and Judeans at this point in history included Greeks and Idumeans and many others who were not Judahites or Israelites.




Quote:
Originally Posted by JJM
Well Jesus used Paul to spread Christianity more than most other men of his time. He also wrote some of the oldest Christian writing left in the world. Which is what he did that causes me to cling to him. What else did he do? His works converted
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJM
St. Augustine and thousands more that is another reason why I cling to him. Since Paul has traditionally been considered an early father and to have inspired works I think the more important question is why you do want to get rid of him? You claim that he was a liar who corrupted Christianity but your only evidence is misunderstood quotes that are completely out of context. SO really you have no reason to believe this other than you want to. Now I realize that the meanings of Paul’s writings have been corrupted over the past few hundred years but that doesn’t mean you throw out Paul. It means you throw out the misinterpretations. Likewise if I said that Plato’s quoting of Socrates claimed that Socrates didn’t think that you where a good person unless you where executed what would you do? Would you throw away Plato or my interpretation? I hope you respond the later. In the same way if the reformers miss interpreted Paul you don’t throw out Paul you throw out the interpretations.
There is no evidence to support Paul's claim of apostleship and many scholars such as Victor provide abundant evidence to show Paul's doctrine is fundamentally different from the Word of Jesus.

Sorry if I haven't had time to reply to all of your posts. I am active in other endeavors elesewhere. I suggest you take the time to read Victor's "Pauline Conspiracy" which is posted in the articles section of this forum.

Happy Thanksgiving!

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Old 11-30-2004, 08:28 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Re: The law of the two or three witnesses.

I have to admit with all the mistranslations, interference and tampering of the bible, I feel much happier with all the gospels that were chosen not to go into the bible, e.g. Gospel of Thomas, Mary Magdalene, Gospel of Philip etc and the Essene Gospels. I agree with most biblical scholars that historical fact is seriously lacking, and always suspicious of anything that that has been written after the fact, especially when it is many year's later.

I found it quite enlightening viewing the letters of St Jerome and his sense of humour appealed to me too!

I feel it is time for a global campaign for the Vatican to open up the vaults to the scholars and all the truth be known.

Was also guided that there are more scrolls to be found when we are ready.


Jesus said "Do not put the Lord your God to the test"

nor any of his children.

But the 3 witnesses, is interesting from a spiritualist perspective because mediums are asked to get the message three times before acting upon it. This is to provide proof that the information is coming from the right source. Due to the fact that only 10% of mediums physically see spirit. Now doubtful that the prophets of the bible were so discerning!!!!in their innocence.



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