The Key to Revelation 7:4

[Marsh]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

i don't know anything about revelation as it's not in my canon. could be maybe john of patmos had had one too many mushrooms that day?

If you don't know the answer to a question, technically you don't have to answer.

[Karehndiujo Mohmid]

Originally Posted by neoxenos

Adam is ADM, or Aleph Daleth Mem.

Aleph has the Kabbalistic value = 1
Daleth has the Kabbalistic value = 4
Mem has the Kabbalistic value = 40

So, 144 (or 144,000) is the number of Adam.

Adam is symbolic, it is in reference to Adam Kadmon, the Cosmos Human, the Heavenly Man.

Thus, Revelation 7:4 means that those who become the Adam Kadmon will enter Heaven.

Likewise, the Twelve Tribes represent the Twelve Zodical Signs under which the self realization of the Adam take place.

Yes, of course and, if I may be so bold, what about the number Six-Hundred And Three-Score Six? The Hebrew Categorical Number of Mankind?

It's been permanently carved into the surface of my right hand for a nearly a decade now. Looks like 53X spelled backwards and fits into the Constellation of Aquarius as if the alignment were custom designed around the characters.

Aquarius. The Age of Man. Galactic Winter Solstice.

I would sincerely like to know how this number adds up with the numerals 1 & 2.

Any reply at all would be greatly appreciated as I'm starting to perspire and am tired of living in constant fear of Spontaneous Combustion.

Heh.

roflmao

Sorry. I grew up with Monty Python. Public Television and all. Innovation at its finest...and in America, no doubt!

Respondez Si Vous Plait.

Peeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez?

[Mus Zibii]

Lol

[spiritman51]

The book of the Revelation of John has a very checkered history as to it's being in the Christian Canon. It's Greek is filled with Hebrew and or Aramaic idoms. The Revelation is not like the other works attributed to John ( The Gospel of John, or Epistles I, II, III). In the highly acclaimed Anchor Bible series J. Massyngberde For offers a new translation and postulates that the Revelation is not "Christian" but rather emantes from the "Crcle of John the Baptis"t. The introduction chapters 1-4 are a later Jewish-Christian additon. Chapter 4-11 are the core of the " John the Baptist circle " Revelation with chapter 12-22 being latter "Baptist circle" material. The Anchor Bible, Volume 38 Revelation, J. Massyngberde Ford, Doubleday 1975. page 3-4. There are of course Christian interjects throughout.( The anchor Bible is a multi volume Bible "new translation" and commentary by Catholic, Protestant and Jewish scholarls with a mild liberal slant.)
There is a mountain of late Jewish appocalyptic literature of which "Daniel" is the best known. Ford points out that the images in the late Jewish apocalyptic writings and the images with in The Revelation of John are complementry. While the solidly Christian apocalyptic images within the Pauline writings are absent from Revelation.

I actually have two points: 1. Perhaps one can massage the Revelation of John with Kabbalistic gematria and not be totally outside of Jewish or "near Jewish" mystical tradition. I suggest Using the Greek letter/number scale and also the LXX.
2. Judaism in the first century C.E. and also B.C.E. was a very complex spirituality with many schools and branches. Many of the currents in the western religious traditions stem from those hetrodox Jewish schools.

The most amazing thing is that mention of "the circle of John the Baptist"

[spiritman51]

There are still people who claim to be disciples of John the Baptist in Iraq and Iran. They are called Mandaenist and also Sabians. These religions have their own literature and traditions. There were other exstinct sects which have historical mentions. Most seem to have left Israel/Palestine area 2nd century C.E.

[mee]

REVELATION 7;4

Questions From Readers

Why do Jehovah’s Witnesses take the number 144,000 mentioned in the book of Revelation literally and not symbolically?

The apostle John wrote: "I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand." (Revelation 7:4) In the Bible, the phrase "those who were sealed" refers to a group of individuals who are chosen from among mankind to rule with Christ in heaven over the coming Paradise earth. (2 Corinthians 1:21, 22; Revelation 5:9, 10; 20:6) Their number, 144,000, is understood literally for several reasons. One is found in the immediate context of Revelation 7:4.



After the apostle John was told in vision about this group of 144,000 individuals, he was shown another group. John describes this second group as "a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues." This great crowd refers to those who will survive the coming "great tribulation," which will destroy the present wicked world.—Revelation 7:9, 14.


Note, however, the contrast that John draws between verses 4 and 9 of Revelation chapter 7. He states that the first group, "those who were sealed," has a definite number. However, the second group, "a great crowd," is without a definite number. With that in mind, it is logical to take the number 144,000 to be literal. If the number 144,000 were symbolic and referred to a group that is actually numberless, the force of the contrast between those two verses would be lost. Thus, the context strongly indicates that the number 144,000 must be taken literally.


Various Bible scholars, past and present, reached the same conclusion—that is, the number is literal. For instance, in commenting on Revelation 7:4, 9, British lexicographer Dr. Ethelbert W. Bullinger observed some 100 years ago: "It is the simple statement of fact: a definite number in contrast with the indefinite number in this very chapter." (The Apocalypse or "The Day of the Lord," page 282) More recently, Robert L. Thomas, Jr., professor of New Testament at The Master’s Seminary in the United States, wrote: "The case for symbolism is exegetically weak." He added: "It is a definite number [at 7:4] in contrast with the indefinite number of 7:9. If it is taken symbolically, no number in the book can be taken literally."—Revelation: An Exegetical Commentary, Volume 1, page 474.


Some argue that since Revelation contains highly symbolic language, all numbers found in this book, including the number 144,000, must be symbolic. (Revelation 1:1, 4; 2:10) That conclusion, though, is clearly not correct. Granted, Revelation contains numerous symbolic numbers, but it also includes literal numbers. For instance, John speaks of "the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." (Revelation 21:14) Clearly, the number 12 mentioned in this verse is literal, not symbolic. Further, the apostle John writes about "the thousand years" of Christ’s reign. That number is also to be taken literally, as a careful consideration of the Bible shows. (Revelation 20:3, 5-7) Hence, whether a number in Revelation is to be taken literally or symbolically depends on its background and setting.



The conclusion that the number 144,000 is literal and refers to a limited number of individuals, a relatively small group when compared with the "great crowd," also harmonizes with other Bible passages. For instance, later in the vision that the apostle John receives, the 144,000 are described as those who "were bought from among mankind as firstfruits." (Revelation 14:1, 4) The expression "firstfruits" refers to a small representative selection. Also, while Jesus was on earth, he spoke about those who will rule with him in his heavenly Kingdom and called them a "little flock." (Luke 12:32; 22:29) Indeed, those from among mankind who will rule in heaven are few in comparison with those of mankind who will inhabit the coming Paradise earth.


Hence, the context of Revelation 7:4 and related statements found elsewhere in the Bible bear out that the number 144,000 is to be taken literally. It refers to those who will rule in heaven with Christ over a paradise earth, which will be filled with a large and undetermined number of happy people who worship Jehovah God.—Psalm 37:2



TAKEN FROM THE GOOD BIBLE BASED MAG THE WATCTHOWER