the islamic god, and the christian God are not the same, what do you think?

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

this is a common misconception. whilst it may be true of christianity and islam, it is not exactly true of judaism, which claims to be the true religion FOR JEWS, but has little to say about what non-jews ought to believe, apart from seven basic guidelines known as the noahide laws. and that is an important difference - it is the difference between being an evangelising, universalistic religion intended for everyone (and therefore "one true" etc) and a particularist religion intended for a distinct group with particular responsibilities.

b'shalom

bananabrain

Yes, I am aware of this difference. Still from the angle i was coming at in my post it's splitting hairs. Jesus was often portrayed as a rabbi and so his followers are but a Jewish branch. Islam is derived from both. They are all connected and the point you make has little to do with overal perception of this connectedness. The majority of believers from all the faiths sense they are all talking about the same God.

"which claims to be the true religion FOR JEWS"..... is this not a supremacist position? My knowledge of Judaism is woeful, but at face value I am uncomfortable with this concept of a 'chosen people'.

Regards

TE

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by ardenz

From the outside it looks like a religious dispute, but inside - from race memory it is to do with land and percieved injustices. I think this is very different than coming to a religion of your own free will and not having the same cultural background.

I think you have a really good point. I chose, as an adult, to become Muslim and I am aware that I see Islam in quite a different way to most Middle Eastern Muslims I talk with every day. A majority of their 'issues' are to do with land, money, power and cultural upbringing. My husband has the most distorted view of Middle eastern history and the fact that they are taught from children that western history books are a web of lies for propaganda purposes against the arabs, does not ease the tensions whether real or imaginary. Oh for a bit of honesty all around.

Have you read any of the Nostradamus prophesies about the future of religion? Really very fascinating.

Salaam

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I think you have a really good point. I chose, as an adult, to become Muslim and I am aware that I see Islam in quite a different way to most Middle Eastern Muslims I talk with every day. A majority of their 'issues' are to do with land, money, power and cultural upbringing. My husband has the most distorted view of Middle eastern history and the fact that they are taught from children that western history books are a web of lies for propaganda purposes against the arabs, does not ease the tensions whether real or imaginary. Oh for a bit of honesty all around.

Have you read any of the Nostradamus prophesies about the future of religion? Really very fascinating.

Salaam

I think I understand your position. Historically however, the West never looked down on the "Arabian" people (infact idolized them in stories and tales, and medicine and science), until after 1948. Even in the sixties, we were mezmorized with the heroics of Arabian princes and maidens of valor. There was one who told a story to her "master", that lasted 10 years. He married her, of course...

The Qu'ran as more chilling thoughts as to the end of days, as opposed to the French physician...as does revelation from John...

v/r

Q

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by ardenz

If they are the same God, why all the disputes? ( I know there are finer details involved). Thats why I have no religion.

Shame on you, you godless heathen. Without disputes there'd be less wars. Less wars would mean less business for the arms industry. Less business for that industry would mean weaker economies generally. Weaker economies would mean greater poverty. Greater poverty would mean more suffering, illness and earlier deaths. Wait, I've gone wrong somewhere....

s.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Shame on you, you godless heathen. Without disputes there'd be less wars. Less wars would mean less business for the arms industry. Less business for that industry would mean weaker economies generally. Weaker economies would mean greater poverty. Greater poverty would mean more suffering, illness and earlier deaths. Wait, I've gone wrong somewhere....

s.

So wars make people richer . . . ?

[ardenz]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I think you have a really good point. I chose, as an adult, to become Muslim and I am aware that I see Islam in quite a different way to most Middle Eastern Muslims I talk with every day. A majority of their 'issues' are to do with land, money, power and cultural upbringing. My husband has the most distorted view of Middle eastern history and the fact that they are taught from children that western history books are a web of lies for propaganda purposes against the arabs, does not ease the tensions whether real or imaginary. Oh for a bit of honesty all around.

Have you read any of the Nostradamus prophesies about the future of religion? Really very fascinating.

Salaam

Culture, land, power and religion ! Yes it is sometimes difficult to step outside ones own culture and religion especially if traditions go back far enough. It is very glib to say "when we all believe in the same God, why the disputes " when history and tradition go deeper. I often think places have memories.

Colonialism has a lot to answer for, breaking up traditional boundaries, making borders for convenience.

I must get around to reading Nostradamus properly

cheers,

Ardenz

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

So wars make people richer . . . ?

Duh!!

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Shame on you, you godless heathen. Without disputes there'd be less wars. Less wars would mean less business for the arms industry. Less business for that industry would mean weaker economies generally. Weaker economies would mean greater poverty. Greater poverty would mean more suffering, illness and earlier deaths. Wait, I've gone wrong somewhere....

s.

Such logic!! Ever considered a career in politics??

(nice post)

[ardenz]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Shame on you, you godless heathen. Without disputes there'd be less wars. Less wars would mean less business for the arms industry. Less business for that industry would mean weaker economies generally. Weaker economies would mean greater poverty. Greater poverty would mean more suffering, illness and earlier deaths. Wait, I've gone wrong somewhere....

s.

G-d !....so thats how it works...

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Without disputes there'd be less wars.

False... I disagree.

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Wait, I've gone wrong somewhere....

True... I agree.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I think I understand your position. Historically however, the West never looked down on the "Arabian" people (infact idolized them in stories and tales, and medicine and science), until after 1948. Even in the sixties, we were mezmorized with the heroics of Arabian princes and maidens of valor. There was one who told a story to her "master", that lasted 10 years. He married her, of course...

Hi Q

That was sort of my point, as a westerner, other than the issues of Islamic terrorism, I was taught that the Middle East is a place of mystery, amazing art, science and people with dignity and pride (although strange toilet habits ). I was never taught to hate the arabs (hell I wouldn't have married one if that was the case). However, they are taught from the aspect of religion that the west intentionally tries to corrupt their life to weaken the Ummah and from a historical point of view (certainly in the past 50-60 years) that the west is trying to take control of the middle east and control it through keeping it divided (I have to agree there may be a little truth there). I have to say Ms Rice didn't help last year when she referred to "the new middle east" a number of times. This simply fuelled the fears of the common people, that the west really did have a secret agenda against them and of course this added strength to the extreme clerics arguments here. Not a good move.

To my simple mind, the mid east is always seen in terms of its prominent religion, Islam, as the west is seen in terms of Christianity. This inevitably ties religion into any political decision. These issues tend, I feel, to increase the distance between the Abrahamic religions. Lets be honest here, you can't win an american election without the Christian vote and you can't hold power in the mid east without the Muslim support. It's all a big game to these guys and unfortunately they seem to be making G-d the loser.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

The Qu'ran as more chilling thoughts as to the end of days, as opposed to the French physician...as does revelation from John...

Not sure I entirely agree with you there. The Quran is more chilling in terms of the vivid descriptions of Hell. The description of the End of Days I feel is very similar in all cases - plagues, wars, religions broken into unagreeing factions, natural disasters, etc, etc and Nostradamus describes, in his own unusual way, these events. He was after all a devout Catholic so his view of the End of Days came from the Christian teachings of the times. Many of his predictions are already here, change in sexual attitudes, the religious leaders falling to greed, more natural disasters, etc, etc.

So if we look at Quatrain C IX - 55

The horrible war which is being prepared in the West
The following year will come the pestilence
So very horrible that young, old, nor beast
Blood, fire Mercury, Mars, Jupiter in France

These planets are due to next align in 2009 and again in 2011.

I found this re the Christian view of the End of Days:

"While some believe the prediction of dates or times is futile, many believe that Jesus foretold of signs which would indicate that the "end of days" was near. Some of these signs include natural disasters, civil problems, and other catastrophes. Of the precise time, however, it will come like a "thief in the night."

Doesn't sound unlike the Quran to me.

Salaam

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Such logic!! Ever considered a career in politics??

(nice post)

I have! My ability to maintain a high level of arse-talk is unsurpassed!

<wonders about delay caused by naughty word>

s.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

False... I disagree.
True... I agree.

I love the intellectual cut-and-thrust of this place!

s.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Hi Q

That was sort of my point, as a westerner, other than the issues of Islamic terrorism, I was taught that the Middle East is a place of mystery, amazing art, science and people with dignity and pride (although strange toilet habits ). I was never taught to hate the arabs (hell I wouldn't have married one if that was the case). However, they are taught from the aspect of religion that the west intentionally tries to corrupt their life to weaken the Ummah and from a historical point of view (certainly in the past 50-60 years) that the west is trying to take control of the middle east and control it through keeping it divided (I have to agree there may be a little truth there). I have to say Ms Rice didn't help last year when she referred to "the new middle east" a number of times. This simply fuelled the fears of the common people, that the west really did have a secret agenda against them and of course this added strength to the extreme clerics arguments here. Not a good move.

To my simple mind, the mid east is always seen in terms of its prominent religion, Islam, as the west is seen in terms of Christianity. This inevitably ties religion into any political decision. These issues tend, I feel, to increase the distance between the Abrahamic religions. Lets be honest here, you can't win an american election without the Christian vote and you can't hold power in the mid east without the Muslim support. It's all a big game to these guys and unfortunately they seem to be making G-d the loser.



Not sure I entirely agree with you there. The Quran is more chilling in terms of the vivid descriptions of Hell. The description of the End of Days I feel is very similar in all cases - plagues, wars, religions broken into unagreeing factions, natural disasters, etc, etc and Nostradamus describes, in his own unusual way, these events. He was after all a devout Catholic so his view of the End of Days came from the Christian teachings of the times. Many of his predictions are already here, change in sexual attitudes, the religious leaders falling to greed, more natural disasters, etc, etc.

So if we look at Quatrain C IX - 55

The horrible war which is being prepared in the West
The following year will come the pestilence
So very horrible that young, old, nor beast
Blood, fire Mercury, Mars, Jupiter in France

These planets are due to next align in 2009 and again in 2011.

I found this re the Christian view of the End of Days:

"While some believe the prediction of dates or times is futile, many believe that Jesus foretold of signs which would indicate that the "end of days" was near. Some of these signs include natural disasters, civil problems, and other catastrophes. Of the precise time, however, it will come like a "thief in the night."

Doesn't sound unlike the Quran to me.

Salaam

Well ok, but does not the Qu'ran state that two thirds of the faithful will perish (whether devout believers or not)? I prescribe that it does. Even the good will die, as a result of the end times.

I know alot of Arab Muslims who have left the area, for western places of solace and protection (for their families), as a result of such prophetic scripture (and the reality of conditions at home). I know of a man who attempted to go back home to Lebanon, only to come back and state "my home is no more...America is now my home". He wasn't at all happy about it, but recognized the reality of things.

He told me the end was near, and the middle east was no place to be when the end comes.

(he misses his childhood home).

v/r

Q

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

I love the intellectual cut-and-thrust of this place!
s.

Have you ever truly felt intellectually scarred by anything that you have chosen to read?