the islamic god, and the christian God are not the same, what do you think?

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

i doubt it - after all, the more sophisticated polytheists get, the closer they tend to get to the idea that gods are part of a sort of "god-field" - in other words, the Force they know as one aspect of the Divine is simply that, a Force that they encounter differently, but similarly through other encounters with the Divine in other settings.

I suppose you are right. The problem I have with polytheism is: Who came first? If it was creation by committee, then these are separate minds. Unless there is a heirarchy leading back to a central figure, there would not be much unity among the separate egos. Clash of the Titans, anyone?

Originally Posted by bb

as for me, i know it because i have the Torah, which is a tangible thing - and i cannot account for what i find in it by any other means; if that is G!D Speaking to us over history, then we can identify the Speaker by the message.

b'shalom

bananabrain

Without getting into specifics, how do account for the Torah being from God? The existence of Israel? (That is certainly convincing on it's own merit.) Or something else? Maybe on a personal level?

iI would think that confirmation of belief about God within a certain sect would be found in the living experiment of the principles and precepts of that set of teachings. That one believes it because, by golly, it works. The proof is in the pudding, as they say. In the case for Judaism, it would be found in the blessings and cursings as found in Deuteronomy 28. In obedience to the commandments, the promises of such blessings are realized in one's life. Would I be correct in assuming this?

[bananabrain]

how do you account for the Torah being from G!D? The existence of Israel? (That is certainly convincing on it's own merit.) Or something else? Maybe on a personal level?

part of it is the inner experience i have had through living according to its principles - it's kind of like asking why a piece of music provokes inner experience through the correct application of technique to wood and metal. the continued existence and faith of the jewish people based upon their commitment to Torah and against all historical likelihood are also so anomalous as to be frankly improbable if they hadn't actually happened. it is also that the actual construction of the Text and the multilayered, multidimensional nature of its form and content, for me, defy any concept that a human being or more than one could have come up with such a document. i just cannot believe humans are capable of coming up with something so complex, particularly in the bronze age. it's the fact that there's an integrated system built around it that actually *works* to such an extent that is hard to conceive how the central Text could have actually evolved without screwing up the system built on it - as well as being compatible with science!

That one believes it because, by golly, it works. The proof is in the pudding, as they say.

precisely.

In the case for Judaism, it would be found in the blessings and cursings as found in Deuteronomy 28. In obedience to the commandments, the promises of such blessings are realized in one's life. Would I be correct in assuming this?

not entirely. as an examination of the book of job should reveal, theodicy remains a problem for us just as much as anyone. there are some things for which we receive the reward in this world, but others for which we do not receive a reward in this life, as it is said:

Mishnah/Seder Zeraim/Tractate Peah/Chapter 1/1/Translation - Wikisource
and, in explanation (BT Shabbat 127a):

These are the commandments whose fruits a person enjoys in this world but whose principal remains intact for him in the world to come. They are: honouring parents, acts of compassion, early attandence at the beit midrash, hospitality to guests, visiting the sick, providing for a bride, escorting the dead, focus on prayer and bringing peace between people - and Torah study is equivalent to all of these mitzvot."

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Faithfulservant]

This might stir up a hornets nest.. but what the heck... I do not agree that the god of the Q'uran is the G-d of the Bible. I do not think that Islam accepts that Israel is His chosen people in fact the Q'uran probably doesnt mention that fact or completely rejects it.

"'I will make known my holy name among my people Israel. I will no longer let my holy name be profaned, and the nations will know that I the Lord am the Holy One in Israel."
In fact.. If it was the case that G-D was a universal creator thing.. how is it that He has destroyed the world once already.. not to mention His anger against idols and false gods..

And certainly of course their rejection of Christ who is the God of Christianity... the Redeemer...the Almighty and The Holy one of Israel. Who was and is and is to come. Who is not only Holy once but 3 times. Who died and rose from the dead to ascend into heaven and who left the Holy Spirit to be be the helper and comforter until the great and glorious day of His return.

G-d made a covenant with Israel in the old Testament (which is what Testament means of course...) His covenant is that He would be the G-D of Israel an act of faith... then He made a new covenant in the New Testament..That He would be the G-d of the gentiles by the act of accepting by faith that Christ came and died and rose again as the Son of God. He didnt make a third and fourth and fifth covenant etc..with all the other gods.

This is why I do not agree that Islam and Christianity worship the same God.

.

[bananabrain]

i don't think that's quite the problem - islam doesn't have a problem with jews being "chosen" in the way we understand it - chosen to *receive the Torah and keep its laws* - the problem comes with the muslims (by no means all of them though) who interpret a particular verse in the Qur'an as meaning that we changed the Torah and distorted the laws rather than doing as we were meant to, which is on one hand a highly partial reading of Na"Kh (the rest of the bible) and on the other derived from early christian polemics. obviously we cannot accept this and refute the accusation we have systematically falsified our own religion in the strongest possible terms. the only way this can be reconciled is by agreeing that the jews referred to in this particular Qur'anic verse are *only* the ones that muhammad and the early muslims got into strife with in mecca and medina, who by all accounts behaved pretty badly and in a manner unbefitting their religious obligations. this is a perfectly acceptable resolution and i advise people to take it up. my position on islamic supercessionist denial of judaism can otherwise be summed up here:

Jewish beliefs not corrupted

so i think i will merely confine myself to commenting that universal conversion designs for one religion are the cause of much evil and, in the case of islam, flies in the face of what G!D Says to the muslims about there being "no compulsion in religion" and that if the Divine had wanted us all to believe the same thing, we would have been Created that way.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[zeras]

Originally Posted by clearamericanboy

I know this issue is probly pressed alot but as a Christian I belive fully that the islamic god and my God is not one in the same, many people disagree but fully belive that the Christians one true God is the one true God because of the very differnent differences, what do you think?????

Asalaamulikum,
very nice question, tell me expaline to you. What is the word that Arab Christians use?? Come on. Ok, They say Allah, which means The God, but the word "illah" means God in Arabic, also the word "al" meaning the it is unique and can not be played around with by adding one letter like the word God, if you add an s it becomes Gods, which is more than one! I want you to find me a Arabic Bible, and tell me what is the word in Arabic used for the word God?? It's Allah. I'm not pointing fingers but, why is it that people don't do reseach? here are some videos links.

Why is God called Allah by Muslims??
YouTube - Zakir Naik - Why is God called Allah by Muslims?

Jesus and Mohammed, who is greater?
YouTube - Jesus and Mohammed, who is greater?

Concept of God in major world religion
YouTube - Concept of God in major world religion pt 3/3

Why Do Muslims say Allah??
YouTube - Why Do Muslims Say Allah?

I think in one of these part of the religious understanding, it also has the expalnation:
YouTube - Building Bridges Between Faiths Part ( 1 of 4 )


Salaamlikum
(peace be upon you)

[Prober]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

This is why I do not agree that Islam and Christianity worship the same God.

I appreciate your post and understand what you're saying.

Would you agree that there is only one G-d? That no matter how many gods people worship, there is in reality only one that exists?

[Muslimwoman]

Different G-d's? No, there is only one G-d. People choose (because of language or religious teaching) to call Him by different names but He is only one G-d, the same one for all reigions. Goodness in Islam alone we have 99 names for Him. G-d knows everything in our minds and hearts, so does it really matter if I call Him Allah and you call Him by another name? Our hearts and minds love and serve the same G-d, the one true G-d.

[flowperson]

Muslimwoman...I would totally agree with you.

And beyond that, much older cultures than our three were aware of a guiding spirit although they thought of it in multiple forms from a single source.

However, North American Natives did believe in a single spiritual force that animated all of nature. It was our three cultures, Islamic, Christian, And Judaic that anthropomorphized the hidden G-d to suit and shape the developing needs of our cultural development over the last six millenia.

In other words our ancestors were inspired to create exactly what each of our peoples needed to progress into the future based upon generally accepted belief systems appropriate to our moral needs. But today in a world virtually without boundaries , all of that historical and cultural precent and tradition is changing before our eyes into some sort of global version. What it all may become is open to conjecture, but it is happening right now, IMHO.

As has been said by many, we are all cursed to live in interesting times.

Peace....flow....

[zeras]

flowperson, Muslimwoman

I have to say very niclly put.
Prober, hmm. In the Glorious Qu'ran, God aka Allah {STW}
clearly stats that He has sent a messanger or a prophet among
all the people or tribes of the world, So everyone was warned,
Likly many have not listened and/or likly gone away from the original teachings. This why I say religion is perfect. Culture is not perfect and is man made. If we were to take something that is perfect and mix it to something that is not, you have only got a currupted and not perfect way of life and there for it is no longer in it's original form the way the religion started, thought and etc. Today if you were to ask a person who is devoute to his faith, has an open mind and does religious studies, you can see clearly that they too will tell you religions have been changed and is not in it's original teaching. This is why I don't go to extreames such as sects or denominations.

Salaamulikum
(peace be upon you all)

[zaim187]

Salaam

Muslims and Jews worship the same God. Early Christians including Jesus also worshipped this God. However Christianity then split up this God into three. Therefore Muslims and Christians did worship the same God but no longer do.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by zeras

Today if you were to ask a person who is devoute to his faith, has an open mind and does religious studies, you can see clearly that they too will tell you religions have been changed and is not in it's original teaching. This is why I don't go to extreames such as sects or denominations.

Hang on here, aren't we getting a bit ahead of ourselves?

How exactly do you "change" a religion? There is a difference between a religion and what people believe about that religion.

You're assuming people have an absolute grasp of what a religion is supposed to mean. But what if you have a religion that isn't concrete and set in stone?

To change a religion there would have to be some Book somewhere that can be changed, edited and modified. Where do you find that Book?

One might say this is obvious, that Jews have the Torah/Tanakh and that Christians have the New Testament. Yet even though they refer to the same texts their beliefs are diverse. It's as if throughout the centuries they have been speculating, discovering and rediscovering the true meaning of these texts.

If we say that the real religion is found when it's true meaning is discovered, that this is the "Book" that one seeks, then the Torah/Tanakh or New Testament are not really the "Book" that defines Judaism or Christianity. The real "Book" is either somewhere else, is invisible, or doesn't exist at all.

From time to time, I hear Jews speaking about some kind of "oral tradition." This, I believe could be regarded as Judaism's equivalent of a "Book," that there is no so-called "Book" in Judaism -- it's an oral tradition. For Christians, you could say the same thing. There isn't really a so-called "Book" in Christianity. What you have instead is what Christians call their "Messiah," their spiritual leader. Christians all around the world are speculating on what this messiah figure could mean for them.

I could say therefore, that the Torah/Tanakh is a text about Judaism rather than one that defines Judaism, and likewise, the New Testament explains Christianity but doesn't define Christianity.

If Jews and Christians want to "change" their religion, there isn't really a "Book" around that one can modify. Even if someone did change the Torah/Tanakh/New Testament, it doesn't change the religion. The real religion is something else entirely, perhaps even invisible. The words in the text itself is concrete and set in stone, but the meaning of the text is something that must be explored and inferred based on the subjectivity of one's knowledge and life experiences.

Moreover, there are so many identical copies of Christian and Jewish texts around that if you produce a changed/modified/corrupted version people will notice and simply use the original authentic ones and ignore the modified ones.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by clearamericanboy

i wasent challenging you, but still ... ok whatever nevermind i'll leave it alone, o and thanks for the welcome, ......... but i think there should be a thread for challenging belifes,... just throwing that out there, unless i might have just over looked it, I didn't see one,
cheers,

This makes me think of that old saying:

Be careful what you pray for.....it might be granted.

There are a lot of very nice and very smart pike here. They show you great tollerance. I think you should be glad of it..... and be willing to learn. Learning does not mean you have to change your core values but it could strengthen them.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

This makes me think of that old saying:

Be careful what you pray for.....it might be granted.

There are a lot of very nice and very smart pike here. They show you great tollerance. I think you should be glad of it..... and be willing to learn. Learning does not mean you have to change your core values but it could strengthen them.

...as steel sharpens steel, so one man sharpens another.

[Dor]

Yall got me thinking. Seems to me an easy way to look at this. Names are picked out of a hat nothing meant by it.

Say we are all in a big banquet hall.
I walk up to Q and say oh you are my Moderator. meanwhile across the room....
Wil walks up to Juan and says your my Moderator. Are they the same just cause they are called the same name???

[Prober]

Originally Posted by Dor

Are they the same just cause they are called the same name???

Isn't there only one G-d?