The inquisition

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by wil

Funny thing about forgiveness, it has little affect on those forgiven, and tons on those who forgive.

Yes!

But most of the time our ego, or whatever it is, won't let us release the burden because it seems like a give-away to the perpetrator of the harm against us. Instead of thinking "it is good for me to release this burden, I will act in my own self interest and let it go," we think, "I must hold on to this burden because if I don't there is no justice." Forgiveness doesn't release the perpetrator of harm from the consequences of his/her/their actions, it releases the victim from the double burden of harm that results from carrying around the fear and anger and need for revenge and other bad things that come with being victimized. What happens is that we assign a portion of ourselves to play the victimizer so that the other part, the victim in us, can continue to have an immediate target to grind it's anger against. We become both victim and victimizer, and we eat ourselves up from the inside because we can't let go of the inner battle.

Chris

[madeinrussia89]

Catholics now shouldn't have to apologize for or even feel guilt for the heinous crimes the Vatican committed in the past. All that is to be done is to prevent it from happening again.

And people need to stop blaming the religion for these acts of cruelty when it's the mistakes of people who clearly don't follow it in the first place.

Catholicism did this, Catholicism did that, Catholicism didn't do anything, people just made stupid clearly misguided decisions.

[bob x]

The Catholicism is the reason WHY they made evil (by no means "stupid") decisions. The way to prevent it from happening again is to abolish the institution. Should we have talked about "reforming" the Nazi Party, to make sure the same "mistakes" didn't happen again?

[wil]

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

Catholics now shouldn't have to apologize for or even feel guilt for the heinous crimes the Vatican committed in the past. All that is to be done is to prevent it from happening again.

And people need to stop blaming the religion for these acts of cruelty when it's the mistakes of people who clearly don't follow it in the first place.

Catholicism did this, Catholicism did that, Catholicism didn't do anything, people just made stupid clearly misguided decisions.

Are we speaking of the inquisition or of the cases of child abuse and cover up? What exactly is being done to prevent it happening again if the system is designed to not divulge the perpetrators? Is it on the table to modify the confessional to require priests to inform the authorities when someone is of harm to themselves or others?

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by wil

Is it on the table to modify the confessional to require priests to inform the authorities when someone is of harm to themselves or others?

So that priests everywhere would be required by law to divulge information to the state — and the state security services — that the state deems necessary for its own security ... and doctors, presumably, as they too are covered by client privilege ... and lawyers ...

... it's the slope to 1984, Wil ...

Thomas

[wil]

Originally Posted by Thomas

So that priests everywhere would be required by law to divulge information to the state — and the state security services — that the state deems necessary for its own security ... and doctors, presumably, as they too are covered by client privilege ... and lawyers ...

... it's the slope to 1984, Wil ...

Thomas

is it? or equal justice under the law realized? Why do we allow loop hole that air craft carriers(or whole institutions) can drive through instead of striving for truth and justice?

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by bob x

The Catholicism is the reason WHY they made evil (by no means "stupid") decisions.

Rubbish ... and I assume you are insisting that Catholicism is institutionally evil, not just stupid or misguided?

Originally Posted by bob x

The way to prevent it from happening again is to abolish the institution. Should we have talked about "reforming" the Nazi Party, to make sure the same "mistakes" didn't happen again?

OK, so lets abolish every institution that anyone chooses to hold responsible for any acts of injustice ... it would be a long and comprehensive list ...

And it would still miss the point.

Thomas

[bob x]

Catholicism is institutionally evil, not just stupid or misguided?

It is based on the principle of compulsory uniformity of belief. This is obscured now, because it has lost the power of compulsion.

[madeinrussia89]

Originally Posted by bob x

The Catholicism is the reason WHY they made evil (by no means "stupid") decisions. The way to prevent it from happening again is to abolish the institution. Should we have talked about "reforming" the Nazi Party, to make sure the same "mistakes" didn't happen again?

Catholicism isn't based on institutional evil, but the love of Christ, like Orthodoxy and Protestant churches alike.

Stupid, undoubtedly evil decisions were made, but that's not the fault of Catholicism itself, Catholicism doesn't promote crimes against humanity, it's just some of the members have fallen into error (laity, priests, bishops, Popes especially) and need to be corrected.

The Nazi Party was based on hatred and intolerance, Christianity is based on love. They aren't the same. By no means is the message of Christ in Catholicism " go out and kill, rape, abuse kids, torture everyone who doesn't comply, install the church into the political sphere as much as possible ", people who do these things aren't living the Catholic faith period anyway.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Well, isn't it rather silly to hold a grudge against someone because of something that their great-great-great-great-great grandfather's fifth cousin twice removed might have done to that person's great-great-great-great-great grandmother's second cousin twice removed, especially if that descendant doesn't do that sort of thing their ancestor was accused of doing?

It may well be silly to you... But to others? Nah ah... It mean's everything.... I am trying to state.. It doesn't matter how hard you try and ask EVERYONE for forgivness, you just won't get it, because some just don't want to give you that, they would rather watch you squirm and have ammo for their offensive.

[Raksha]

I know, I know ... (sigh) ... whatever we do, it will never be enough.

Thomas,

You are right there...it will never be enough! As I said on another thread, I have no intention of forgiving the Catholic Church for its millennia of persecution of my people. My heroes are NOT martyrs, but those crypto-Jews, who lived ostensibly as "Catholics" for so many generations they eventually forgot they were Jewish, not only in Spain but in the New World as well. Sometimes their descendants have re-converted to Judaism on learning of their heritage--500 years of the "blessings" of Catholicism were not enough to tear them from their spiritual roots. As I said, I admire the Conversos aka Marranos tremendously because they chose to LIVE for their faith rather than die for it. It's a decision that takes not only courage but commitment over the long haul.

Their predicament was 100% caused by the Inquisition, and NOT the Protestant version of it either! We all know Luther also persecuted and burned heretics, but that doesn't excuse the Catholic Church.

If you like, you can personally apologize to me on because of the ignorant bullies who called me "Christ-killer" when I was a kid, including that one bitch who tried to make me kneel and beg forgiveness for "killing Jesus." (She didn't succeed.) The bullies were both Catholics and Protestants, but it was YOUR Church that started that vicious slander, and don't expect me to forget it. So you can apologize if you like (I really don't give a damn one way or the other), but just don't expect me to accept your apology on behalf of the Catholic Church, which has yet to apologize to the Jews or any of its other victims.

--Linda

[Raksha]

Originally Posted by bob x

It is based on the principle of compulsory uniformity of belief. This is obscured now, because it has lost the power of compulsion.

Very well stated. If I'm not mistaken, NOWHERE in the actual teachings of Jesus is there any precedent for such a concept as the "Church Militant," which has been the real sinner in the name of Christianity.

--Linda

[Raksha]

Catholics now shouldn't have to apologize for or even feel guilt for the heinous crimes the Vatican committed in the past.

I totally agree with you. It would be grossly unfair for them to have to apologize or feel guilt for the sins of the past, except in cases where Catholic spokespeople (self-appointed or otherwise) attempt to minimize, rationalize or whitewash the sins of the Church. In such cases they become accomplices after the fact--and then they're fair game!

--Linda