The inquisition

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by bob x

The Catholic Church started it, to be sure,

Yes indeed ... before the Catholic Church, the whole world lived in peace and harmony, one big happy family, doing needlepoint and admiring the flowers ...

[bob x]

Who said anything of the sort? You are as bad as the Muslims, thinking that pointing to evil in other people is an excuse for your own.
The Vatican has been a potent force for evil, and if it is not killing and torturing people anymore it is only because it has lost the political power to do so, a containment that cost much bloodshed. There is no good reason for its continuance.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Perhaps a reading of Ezekiel chapter 18 might be in order here, especially given the direction this thread is taking?

Yep, it's a review of it is really worth a look. It starts out:

A False Proverb Refuted

1 The word of the LORD came to me again, saying, 2 “What do you mean when you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying:


‘ The fathers have eaten sour grapes,
And the children’s teeth are set on edge’?

3 “As I live,” says the Lord GOD, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.

...continues on with very logical arguments, and concludes thusly:

19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord GOD, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?
24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?
30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord GOD. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord GOD. “Therefore turn and live!”

I would say this is a very good admonishment, that is quite relevant today...

[wil]

note: the banner was for a spanish inquisition torture device ringtone...

Odds are my history coincides with the history of the the catholic church...I don't know how to go back that far....

And I don't blame them for past indiscretions that are ages old...I do still fault them for not opening the vault to google or yahoo and coming clean and for playing musical chairs with priests, cardinals, bishops who should be tried in a court of law...something I should work on I suppose...

It is a pain when others are the inquisitors...

[Thomas]

Hi Wil —

I know, I know ... (sigh) ... whatever we do, it will never be enough. Seems we are obliged to carry the burden of the fruit of the Fall — "It wasn't my fault!" (Adam blamed Eve, Eve blamed the serpent ... we've all been trying to shift the blame, ever since.)

How about we apologise to everyone, here and now, for everything that ever happened, ever?. Will it be accepted, I wonder?

+++

Did you see the news piece about the Vatican publishing its documents on the supression of the Knights Templar recently?

Nothing that was not in the public domain, but re-affirms the view of the Church that they were not an heretical order, nor given to secret, esoteric or occult practices ... but they were tremendously wealthy, and Philip the Fair of France wanted, and got, their assets ...

(Course, probably our fault for not going to war with France to protect them.)

Historians commenting on the release seemed more insistent on pointing out what a croc of doo-doo "The DVC" and "HB, HG" are, and what happens when 'historicity' is undertaken by those who see the chance tro make a fast buck at someone else's expense.

Thomas

[wil]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Did you see the news piece about the Vatican publishing its documents on the supression of the Knights Templar recently?

Oh yeah...read the Vatican History pages...I did!

It is just that if one historian turns one page back once to see if what he read was correct that is more damage than an electronic recorder would do and once it is done the book will never need to be opened again....

[bob x]

Course, probably our fault for not going to war with France to protect them.

Your fault for giving them the legal cover in the first place: you created the criminalization of dissident belief, and the procedure of using grotesque torture to investigate such cases; and even when you knew that it was a mass murder of innocents, you signed off on it, rather than lose your revenue stream.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Hi Wil —

I know, I know ... (sigh) ... whatever we do, it will never be enough. Seems we are obliged to carry the burden of the fruit of the Fall — "It wasn't my fault!" (Adam blamed Eve, Eve blamed the serpent ... we've all been trying to shift the blame, ever since.)

How about we apologise to everyone, here and now, for everything that ever happened, ever?. Will it be accepted, I wonder?

Isn't that what Christianity is all about--the renunciation of and the forgiveness of sins?
Matt 6:14-15

14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Luke 7:47

47 Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.”

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Isn't that what Christianity is all about -- the renunciation of and the forgiveness of sins?

Oh, that goes without saying! We forgive the world their trespasses against us, and never have we asked for an apology. We apologise for our trespasses against the world however, and hope that the world can find it in itself to forgive us ... but we don't hold our breath: "And you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake" (Matthew 10:22).

Thomas

[17th Angel]

You talk as if you deserve forgiveness.... If someone asks to be forgiven, that doesn't mean the other side/person/whatever HAS to forgive they can hold a grudge for all eternity agaisn't you.... That is there decision... Forgive or hate... That is up to them, there is no law that states you must forgive someone if they ask for it. I guess some people are not looking for apologies and such... They just wish to remind you of what your religion has done.

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

You talk as if you deserve forgiveness....

Not at all. The Catholic Church has apologised, it assumes nothing more.

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

If someone asks to be forgiven, that doesn't mean the other side/person/whatever HAS to forgive they can hold a grudge for all eternity agaisn't you.... That is there decision... Forgive or hate... That is up to them, there is no law that states you must forgive someone if they ask for it. I guess some people are not looking for apologies and such... They just wish to remind you of what your religion has done.

That, tragically, is the burden they choose to carry.

Thomas

[17th Angel]

Takes all shapes and sizes to make the world go round

[bob x]

The Vatican has no purpose except to compel conformity in beliefs: it cannot achieve this purpose anymore because it has lost the political power to do so (thanks to the struggle of many people to fight its power). Why does it continue to exist then? Thomas, you cannot get forgiveness without *renouncing* the sin, not just apologizing weakly for past instances of it.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

You talk as if you deserve forgiveness.... If someone asks to be forgiven, that doesn't mean the other side/person/whatever HAS to forgive they can hold a grudge for all eternity agaisn't you.... That is there decision... Forgive or hate... That is up to them, there is no law that states you must forgive someone if they ask for it. I guess some people are not looking for apologies and such... They just wish to remind you of what your religion has done.

Well, isn't it rather silly to hold a grudge against someone because of something that their great-great-great-great-great grandfather's fifth cousin twice removed might have done to that person's great-great-great-great-great grandmother's second cousin twice removed, especially if that descendant doesn't do that sort of thing their ancestor was accused of doing?

[wil]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel
If someone asks to be forgiven, that doesn't mean the other side/person/whatever HAS to forgive they can hold a grudge for all eternity agaisn't you.... That is there decision... Forgive or hate... That is up to them, there is no law that states you must forgive someone if they ask for it. I guess some people are not looking for apologies and such...

Originally Posted by Thomas

That, tragically, is the burden they choose to carry.

Funny thing about forgiveness, it has little affect on those forgiven, and tons on those who forgive.