"The Greening of Hate"

[foundationist]

Now this is something I found interesting in New Scientist this week, and I'm glad they've made it avialable online.

Basically, Betsy Hartman argues that a lot of American environmentalism is being hi-jacked by right-wing anti-immigration thinking.

I'll risk a couple of interesting quotes from her in the above linked article, to help give an idea of what she's talking about:


"I find even well-educated and well-meaning acquaintances have alarming responses on population issues. They believe the poor create their own problems by breeding, and it absolves the rest of us from responsibility."

"On climate change, we hype up fears of rising emissions in "overpopulated" India rather than looking at our own consumption patterns. Better a one-child policy there than a one-car policy here."

"It makes the victims of the modern world into its villains, and encourages policies that attack them and their livelihoods."

[Ent witch]

We make servants of the world.it's rich v poor nothing more

[Tao_Equus]

Reviving a long forgotten and underdiscussed thread in the hope its given some discussion...

This issue has more recently been in the news due to the rise of agricultural and virgin land being put to use for biofuels. In the UK government spokesmen warn that even here population will outstrip food production ability if current trends continue by 2050. The phrases that we were once familiar with "war on want" and "war on hunger" never get seen these days tho a child continues to die every 4 seconds from poverty. The lull in tropical deforestation we saw at the turn of the millennium has gone and again huge areas of tropical rainforest are cleared for palm oil. Global sea level rises and flooding events are salinating huge tracts of formerly arable land. Global fishing reserves are in meltdown with fish stocks in most areas considered critical. The worlds poor take the brunt of this while our supermarkets remain full of the very best of produce flown in from every corner of the planet. Are we aware enough of the challenges we face? Can we expect to see billions starve to death? What can we do to help the situation?

Tao

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

This issue has more recently been in the news due to the rise of agricultural and virgin land being put to use for biofuels. In the UK government spokesmen warn that even here population will outstrip food production ability if current trends continue by 2050.

This is so sickeningly interesting and frustrating to me; I also read months ago that the lower working classes in Mexico aren't able to produce and afford the corn for making tortillas--which are a substantial daily part of theie diet--because the corn is being appropriated by the makers of ethanol fuels.

So we have the production of alternative fuels, which is supposedly a good thing and meant to mitigate dependence on oil, encroaching on people's ability to eat their meals. Once again, it comes down to the fact that the driving lifestyles of the westernly civilized folk are (in)directly depriving other people in the world of basic rights. Horribly fascinating that no longer will people need to be bombed for us to fuel our vehicles; now we can prolong the torture of deprivation by starving some Mexicans.

Ug, where does it end?? It's enough to make me seriously consider a Luddite lifestyle. I'm still several blips away, but know that if I stop posting regularly, I've cashed in my few chips and slipped off the grid.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Pathless

...--because the corn is being appropriated by the makers of ethanol fuels.

So we have the production of alternative fuels, which is supposedly a good thing and meant to mitigate dependence on oil, encroaching on people's ability to eat their meals. ...

ethanol is a joke. A joke that the non scientific environmentalists foisted upon us decades and then those in power finally gave in and said "Ok, let me make millions to prove to you how stupid this is" It takes more fuel to make it than we get! ie it is a loss, we utilize more energy in coal, diesel, or wind to make it, and transport it than we get out of it. It drives me crazy.

I agree, I'm ready to get a solar cell to power a laptop and move on...

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by wil

ethanol is a joke. A joke that the non scientific environmentalists foisted upon us decades and then those in power finally gave in and said "Ok, let me make millions to prove to you how stupid this is" It takes more fuel to make it than we get! ie it is a loss, we utilize more energy in coal, diesel, or wind to make it, and transport it than we get out of it. It drives me crazy.

I agree, I'm ready to get a solar cell to power a laptop and move on...

False. The coal and oil came from trees and plants.

The solar cell replaces the plant but can increase global entropy. The tree and plant reduces global entropy.

Originally Posted by OP

"Better a one-child policy there than a one-car policy here."

A multi-vehicle policy reduces consumption. Excessive to commute in a 2-ton truck, yet impossible to haul 2-tons in a compact. The closer the match between vehicle and load, the more efficient.

[wil]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

False. The coal and oil came from plants.

The solar cell replaces the plant but can increase global entropy. The plant reduces global entropy.

The carbon from coal and oil are trapped until burned. Trees and plants which are burned are recycling carbons that are in the circulation, burning coal and oil adds carbons to the circulation. What did I say in my post that was false??

[greymare]

I thought ethanol was from sugar cane, not corn. Or doesnt it matter.

[dauer]

The production of refined sugar cane is bad for the environment and for the workers, often children, who harvest it.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by greymare

I thought ethanol was from sugar cane, not corn. Or doesnt it matter.

Ethanol is produced by fermenting sugars and sugar cane or beet, due to their high concentration of sugars, are the best plants to use. But many other sources of sugar, including corn starch, sawdust and fruit can also be used.

Tao

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by dauer

The production of refined sugar cane is bad for the environment and for the workers, often children, who harvest it.

A good reason to only buy Fairtrade products.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by wil

ethanol is a joke. A joke that the non scientific environmentalists foisted upon us decades and then those in power finally gave in and said "Ok, let me make millions to prove to you how stupid this is" It takes more fuel to make it than we get! ie it is a loss, we utilize more energy in coal, diesel, or wind to make it, and transport it than we get out of it. It drives me crazy.

I agree, I'm ready to get a solar cell to power a laptop and move on...

I am in 2 minds on this point. The truth is that we are, unless we return to horses and carts, going to continue to require liquid fuels. Ethanol currently can produce up to about 35% more energy than it takes to produce, slightly more efficient than that of gasoline from crude oil. But technological advances are predicted to take this up to 60+% by the use of grasses like switch grass and closed loop refinement processes, (where the waste products are used to drive the heat for distillation). However a requirement for any substitute to gasoline must surely be its carbon footprint. Ethanol still produces CO2 on combustion and, more often overlooked, it produces as an equal amount of CO2 in its production from the raw material as Ethanol itself. So it can be seen as an answer to dwindling oil resources but it is most definitely not an answer in a quest for a clean fuel.

Tao

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Pathless

This is so sickeningly interesting and frustrating to me; I also read months ago that the lower working classes in Mexico aren't able to produce and afford the corn for making tortillas--which are a substantial daily part of theie diet--because the corn is being appropriated by the makers of ethanol fuels.

Yes there were protests across Mexico at the poorer people being effectively priced out of their main staple. The predictions are for this trend to become widespread. Chemical companies and the motor industry are doing feasibility trials with rice for ethanol production. Any rise in the world price for rice would effectively starve out a billion people.

So we have the production of alternative fuels, which is supposedly a good thing and meant to mitigate dependence on oil, encroaching on people's ability to eat their meals. Once again, it comes down to the fact that the driving lifestyles of the westernly civilized folk are (in)directly depriving other people in the world of basic rights. Horribly fascinating that no longer will people need to be bombed for us to fuel our vehicles; now we can prolong the torture of deprivation by starving some Mexicans.

And this is the point of the thread. The corporations, and the Governments they own, have begun to hijack the environmental movements aims and implement part of them yet spin them as total fixes. Its akin to them declaring themselves surgeons, cutting open the patient, collecting the cheque and walking away leaving the poor guy wide open. It is the same thing as always happens in our beloved consumer led, (you can choose how to define 'led'), capitalist world. Short term profit for the shareholder is the only consideration.

Ug, where does it end?? It's enough to make me seriously consider a Luddite lifestyle. I'm still several blips away, but know that if I stop posting regularly, I've cashed in my few chips and slipped off the grid.

Shall we start a commune then ?

Tao

[dauer]

A good reason to only buy Fairtrade products.

Most definitely.

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by wil

The carbon from coal and oil are trapped until burned. Trees and plants which are burned are recycling carbons that are in the circulation, burning coal and oil adds carbons to the circulation. What did I say in my post that was false??

I am saying that it is false that it takes more energy than what is had. I have not personally studied the process from start to finish to figure the efficiency, but is not at a loss. Price and cost is more a function of supply, demand, infrastructure, and technology. I figure there will be a day when oil refined gasoline costs 100 times what it costs today after adjusting for inflation. What would the value of an ethanol crop be then?

I see the moral arguments against ethanol as an argument against everything that uses energy outside of the body. Abandoning that takes everyone back before the discovery and use of fire. Even the Amish use horses. Horses live on food... that food potentially takes away from someone starving somewhere.

I do see ways of cutting fuel consumption of vehicles in half by simple improvements in technology. I will even share some at some point.